One bowlback mandolin largely fixed

[peterk]

When I received this mandolin, it seemed structurally OK, with a reasonably straight and true neck, just that cosmetically it looked like a typical attic century find. Also, the instrument had been subjected to repair(s) in the past, not all of them were good and clean. Inside the mandolin there is a repair label by R.A. Mango, NYC. My guess is that he worked on it sometime in 1930s. Alas, the mandolin bears no visible record of its maker, although it is possible that the maker's label is covered by the R. A. Mango's label.

I cleaned the instrument, repaired the pickguard, missing MOP pieces made, one bowl stave separation reglued, the bridge modified, and obviously new strings installed.

The mandolin plays nice enough, and tonally it is OK, particularly the lower courses. The E course doesn't quite ring like some other lighter mandolins of mine, perhaps a large mass of the fluted (metal wire spacers) mandolin favours lower frequency tone. The mandolin weighs 755g which is quite heavy for an Italian (?) bowlback type. For example, my Model 1 DeMeglio tips the scale at 584g.
Despite my version of the compensated bridge installed, the G course intonation is not the best.

I am still of two minds regarding the soundboard varnish touchup/restoration. I kind like its dark weathered look. If by any chance this turns out to be a Vinaccia made instrument, I might put additional effort into it.:grin:

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[Tavy]

Interesting - someone clearly put some work into that bowl! Looks like some nice Brazillian rosewood too?

[peterk]

John, that does look like good rosewood with tulipwood band and edging. The neck veneer is also some sort of a more exotic wood I can't identify. The soundboard seems to be made of nice close grained spruce. The headstock could be rosewood too.

[Bob Clark]

Hi Peterk,

That's a beauty, thanks for posting the pictures. Have you put anything about it up in the "Bowlbacks of Note" thread? It would be nice to have it there for posterity. I am curious to see whether our resident bowlback experts will identify the maker.

[Jim Garber]

For ID purposes it might help to have:


direct shot (straight) from front
direct shot (straight) from back
shot of the bottom


As far as tonal considerations: Did you or your luthier varnish the top and bowl and, if so, why? or was that the way you received the mandolin? Oh, maybe Mango did it! I would think your intonation was off using a bridge compensated that way. it looks a little odd to me.

[peterk]

Thanx Bob, I think I did post something about it there a week or so ago.
Now, if anyone can identify the maker with a reasonable degree of certainty, I shall buy them (Italian) beer.:mandosmiley:
I already said that I saw some elements of Vinaccia in it, perhaps a Globo's maker as well, it's hard to tell especially when hardware such as the tailpiece was probably replaced. The bridge has "Germany" stamped very clearly on its bottom which opens up a few possibilities because the bridge foot conforms very closely to the curved soundboard.

[Bruce Clausen]

Beautiful instrument. Has Lingetti been suggested? I see one here whose bowl is trimmed in a similar way:

http://www.earlymusicalinstruments.com/mandolin.htm

For the intonation problem: What strings are on it? I got a big improvement when I went from bronze wrapped to silver. Not sure why.

[peterk]

Jim, that saddle was skewed in order to augment the bridge tilt away from the nut, i.e., to effectively increase the G course length. However, even that is not enough, the 12th fret note is still sharp.
The mandolin came to me with an additional coat of soundboard varnish applied by one of the past repairers. I do not mind that, just that there was no attempt to clean/prep the soundboard before the varnish application, a kind of a window dressing affair.

Thank you Bruce, I didn't know about that maker. It's a definite possibility although their top is more lavishly appointed, whereas my mandolin's top is rather Spartan in ornamentation. That in itself is a bit of a puzzle. I have also made a mental note of your bronze to silver switch.....I am still experimenting and hopefully learning something in the process.

[Jim Garber]

Actually, Peter, what strings do you have on it?

[peterk]

Jim, it's GHS 09-13-20-32 for now. They sound a bit metallic to my ear, but they are low tension and inexpensive.
Eventually, I'll check out the Thomastik, Aquila, Dogal, etc.
I am also hoping to find a mandolin equivalent of Pirastro "Olive" some day which had been my violin go-to strings for many years.

[Jim Garber]

Here is a Fratelli Vinaccia that resembles yours at least in part -- the front of the body is decorated pretty similarly. It has the same butterfly and the same purfling.

The strange thing about Peter's I think may have to do with Mango's work on it. I would suggest that he reworked the neck with new veneer, replaced the fretboard, replaced the pearl triangle near the neck/headstock joint with some matching wood and revarnished the whole mandolin.

I would guess that originally this mandolin had a more ornate fretboard. Usually these fretboards are pretty thin and would not merely have small dots on it, esp one with a fluted bowl.

[Jim Garber]

Maybe this is a sort of Mango-Frankenstein (Mangosteen?) it seems like parts of various mandolins came together somehow.

Here is another fluted back Vinaccia from 1923. Top is very different from Peter's. Back looks similar.

[peterk]

Jim, a great find....I may have to buy you some beer after all. The pickguard/rosette is practically identical to mine, down to the veins in the bug's wings.

[brunello97]

I would suggest that he reworked the neck with new veneer, replaced the fretboard, replaced the pearl triangle near the neck/headstock joint with some matching wood and revarnished the whole mandolin.

Hmmm. And peeled off the old label and replaced with his own?

Mick

[peterk]

Hmmm. And peeled off the old label and replaced with his own?

Mick

Wouldn't surprise me if that's the way it went. Someone slopped a thick coat of yellow varnish over all MOP inlayed bits.....not nice. Moreover, I believe that originally the mandolin didn't have a metal tailpiece, but four (metal, bone, ivory ?) pins embedded into the tail end of the skirt. The pins are gone, but the holes remain, and a relatively modern tailpiece screwed on top of them. The bridge the mandolin came with to me is galalith, not ebony. Etc. etc.....a goodly number of issues are present which do not cast a positive light on the past repair efforts.

[Tavy]

Wouldn't surprise me if that's the way it went. Someone slopped a thick coat of yellow varnish over all MOP inlayed bits.....not nice. Moreover, I believe that originally the mandolin didn't have a metal tailpiece, but four (metal, bone, ivory ?) pins embedded into the tail end of the skirt. The pins are gone, but the holes remain, and a relatively modern tailpiece screwed on top of them. The bridge the mandolin came with to me is galalith, not ebony. Etc. etc.....a goodly number of issues are present which do not cast a positive light on the past repair efforts.

Using pins to hold the strings in place is characteristic of the Vinaccias and their students (of whom there were many).

Have you replaced the galalith bridge? Seems like a nice ebony bridge would likely improve the tone?

[peterk]

John, now that I have more faith in the mandolin being a Vinaccia, I shall be getting a period replica ebony bridge for it. As far as the string tail pins go, I need to get some pictures of a mandolin provisioned with the pins first. I am not even sure if the pins of the sort are available today ?

Edit: Found one picture of 1898 mandolin with string tail pins.

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Another Antonio Vinaccia from 1774 (?)
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Here's one from 1882:111160

[brunello97]

I am not even sure if the pins of the sort are available today ?

I always assumed these were some version of the string pins that remain in common use, used for guitars, etc. Maybe they are a different diameter?

Mick

[peterk]

The pin holes in the skirt are 3mm diameter, slightly tapered, and they were drilled all the way thru the skirt.
My main concern is weakening of the tail by having so many holes in it, concentrated in a rather small area: 4 original holes for the string pins, 3 new holes for the tailpiece screws, and one larger hole for the hinged armrest screw latch. I was planning to plug the string pin holes, but now I am not so sure that would be the best way to go. The other alternative is to revert to string pins, and plug the four tailpiece holes.

[Jim Garber]

I think I have at least one mandolin that has these. I will take a look. I doubt they are the same as guitar string pins. I think they are smaller to take the string loops and would not have needed the long tail. I would think they just screw into the endblock. Frankly, if it were me I would just get a decent tailpiece that works. This mandolin has been "worked on" a little too much and would not be original no matter what you do. Why not just make it playable? I would definitely change the bridge and put a proper bone insert into it.

[peterk]

Yes, I will probably retain the existing tailpiece, and plug the four string pin holes, as originally planned.
However, when I get the ebony bridge done, the currently used galalith one will be replaced.
Even with the currently experienced G string intonation problem, this is already a fairly nicely playing instrument.

[Jim Garber]

Jim, it's GHS 09-13-20-32 for now. They sound a bit metallic to my ear, but they are low tension and inexpensive.
Eventually, I'll check out the Thomastik, Aquila, Dogal, etc.
I am also hoping to find a mandolin equivalent of Pirastro "Olive" some day which had been my violin go-to strings for many years.

I frankly do not love the GHS but use them for the first strings on a mandolin I am not too sure of. For most quality vintage bowlbacks I prefer Dogal Calace Dolce RW92b or Fisoma Consort. I do not like Thomastiks on bowlbacks but that is my taste. I like bright and clear. It is only recently that I actually started using Thomastiks on my Lyon & Healy and I do like them a lot. Much of string choice has to do with what mandolin it goes on. I have the Dogals on my Vega bowlback and they sound wonderful.

Aquila are synthetic gut strings and I doubt they will drive the top to give much tone. 19th century and later bowlbacks were intended for metal strings. Pirastro Olive strings are gut core violin. I do not know of any equivalent for the mandolin. Man, you have high-priced tastes: a set of Olive strings goed for over $120.

[Jim Garber]

Yes, I will probably retain the existing tailpiece, and plug the four string pin holes, as originally planned.
However, when I get the ebony bridge done, the currently used galalith one will be replaced.
Even with the currently experienced G string intonation problem, this is already a fairly nicely playing instrument.

Correct me if I am wrong but one the ones I have seen the bridge (bottom part) is often ebony and rosewood and the saddle or insert is galalith (a casein plastic - more info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galalith)) or bone. You may only need to replace the insert. Or is the whole bridge made of plastic?

Take a look at the bridge of the first photo in this post (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?101515-One-bowlback-mandolin-largely-fixed&p=1232593&viewfull=1#post1232593). Is that similar to your bridge?

[peterk]

The bridge which came with the mandolin is made of galalith, and the saddle strip is bone or galalith, not sure about that.
I reckon the bridge was relatively recently made in Germany with a foot curvature to conform to a typical bowlback soundboard. In this case, the bridge fit very well out of the box, just that it was way too high, and the top of it was chipped off, thus it needed a rework.
I plan to get a new suitable replacement bridge from Europe, either ebony or olive wood, or something like that.... I am getting a bit tired of sanding ebony (or galalith:grin:), need a change of wood.:grin:

[peterk]

Here's a bit of a closure to a couple of issues left open in the above posts. Managed to scrape the R.A. Mango's repair label away, and underneath there was no maker's label, nor any evidence of its past presence/removal.
Furthermore, I've glued ebony plugs into the four string tail pin holes, since I have decided to stay with the currently installed tailpiece for reasons of practicality and durability.
The focus of the remaining refurbishing work ought to be the mandolin intonation.

[brunello97]

Managed to scrape the R.A. Mango's repair label away, and underneath there was no maker's label, nor any evidence of its past presence/removal.

Hmm. That seems like kind of a pity. Could it have been removed through a bit of steam or warm water to keep the label intact while checking beneath it? Part of the mandolin's history....

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Oh well... Peter, now that you are a full-fledged member of the Loyal Order of the Bowl, you will need to check with the executive board before taking serious action. :)

I still want to delve under my Rosario Genovese store labels -- there are two of them -- to see what is under them. This mandolin is a seriously ornate fluted bowl with lots of pearl inlay and verboten materials as well. I think there is a way to take off the label and keep it intact but I am not the one to try.

[brunello97]

I think there is a way to take off the label and keep it intact but I am not the one to try.

As long as they didn't use the same glue as on wine labels....Those can be impossible. ;)

I've removed some Italian labels (DeMeglio and others) by gentle application of some warm water via a natural sponge. Lifted right off and I kept them 'pressed' for reapplying later. I figured steaming would also work, but didn't want to risk loosening the paper lining beneath.

Pedro, is the interior of the "Mango" bowl lined with something? Did the label look anything like one of these from '30s Mango guitars?

Mick

[peterk]

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Mick, the Mango's label I removed was different: about 4x3" in size, and it spoke of his instrument fabrication, and also of "artistic" instrument repair, all in a simple large font, no graphics/flourish of any kind on it . Then, on top of it, someone handwrote by pencil "repaired by".
This poor Vinaccia mandolin of mine has suffered rough treatment in the hands of past repairer(s), and god only knows what its past owners did to it. I certainly wasn't going to take my chances with wet or heat removal of a repairer's label.
The interior of the bowl is lined with wide paper strips resembling today's brown/ivory wrapping paper. Seems like a solid and tidy job done there by the maker.

[brunello97]

The mandolin sure has had an interesting history. Erasing part of it in hopes of confirming another is certainly your call, Peter. Not really my business at all except as part of these conversations, which don't amount to much. RA Mango made beautiful instruments of his own: guitars and mandolins as well.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Here's a Mango mandolin that appeared on this site a year or so ago.

[peterk]

Generally speaking, and that is obviously just my own feeling about the issue, I do not like the practice of labels by repairers (seldom) or retail shops/importers (often) being glued on top of the maker's label. I've seen cases where such extraneous labels were placed to conceal the maker's label, either fully or partially. Frankly, such practice amounts to borderline vandalism in my eyes.
Dave Hynds is currently fixing a mandolin of mine by Pietro Ruffini, where the UK importer's label obscures a large part of the maker's label. I will be asking Dave to try to remove and discard the latter without damaging the original label underneath, if possible at all.
Yet, I think it is a good practice for folks who do a major old mandolin repair or restoration to leave their own record of repair inside the instrument, perhaps a small label placed next to the maker's label, if that one exists.

I own another example, a mandolin possibly by Antonio Carvalho. Well, the reason I can't be sure is that the instrument seller's label, a very large and garish one, is glued smack in the centre of the mandolin's back, beneath the soundhole. The next time I will be changing strings, that label will also have to be removed.

[brunello97]

Great looking Mango, Jim. ;) I remember seeing this one. I wish the guy was around today to repair some of my mandolins... I could visit my pals in NYC, too.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Lots of ego problems even way in the past. I would guess a mandolin maker who was forced to pay the bills from doing what he thought of as lowly repair work might want to obscure the identity of the original maker. Of course in this Mango case he didn't do that. BTW Peter, have you inspected the inside (top, bottom, neck block etc) for any faint signatures of the real makers.

I am not sure why stores would want to obscure the original label of the maker -- prob because they mark up and if someone played it in the store then contacted the maker directly and saved the store's profits.

In any case, I agree that it would be better to have the restorer or store put their labels in a more proper location. Being a vintage maniac, I still am interested in any history of an instrument, including the restorer(s) or where or when they were sold. I sincerely wished tho that there was a nice Vinaccia (or other prominent Neapolitan maker) label under the Mango one. Oh well. It is still a nice mandolin.

[brunello97]

My hunch is that some of this also may have been the product of one of the obvious conceits of the travel culture of the times. Passport stamps, travel / shipping labels on steamer trunks, import export stamps, the whole aesthetic "Banana Republic" picked up on decades later. (I'm also thing about one of those early Mike Marshall MMQ CD booklet designs.) Or like the fad for case-stickers.

I see the London guys' stamp on this Ruffini label in those eyes. Maybe intended (however ham-handedly) to add to the cache of the mandolin invoking the 'Grand Tour' for those who hadn't made it.

The Ruffinis I have in my files look generic enough to make me wonder about the "award winning factory" boast. Brescia? Neapolitan mandolins in the home of the Lombards? Maybe, I guess. They might have been putting their label on something that was made elsewhere as well.

Maybe label overlays can be removed and repositioned to allow the historical provenance to remain with the mandolin itself?

Jim, didn't your $1.99 Embergher come with another label over top of the LE one? Or was that another one recently on Ebay?

Mick

[Jim Garber]

My (now famous) Embergher came with a Zurich music shop label pasted right over the Embergher label but you can see the Embergher label sticking out. The major annoying thing is that you cannot tell what year this was made. Prob around 1912. If they had pasted it higher over the Embergher lable we would be able to see the year.

Contrary to popular belief, Mick, I did not buy this one in the dollar store.

[Jim Garber]

Who know what lurks under this label?

I have never seen any other mandolins by this maker and the construction style is definitely Neapolitan. There are two of the same label, too.

[Tavy]

The Ruffinis I have in my files look generic enough to make me wonder about the "award winning factory" boast. Brescia? Neapolitan mandolins in the home of the Lombards? Maybe, I guess. They might have been putting their label on something that was made elsewhere as well.

Are Ruffinis actually any good? I repaired one and thought it was rather flimsy and not all that well made or decent sounding (albeit rather pretty).

[brunello97]

What's a decimal point or two, Jim? ;)

My hunch is you can get that overlain label to release with a bit of moisture and care. I was worried about the signature ink on the DeMeglio I peeled up, but it all worked out fine.

Can you feel the profile of anything under the Genovese label or is the paper too thick for that? East 75th St.? Isn't that up Victor's way?

John, I've never played a Ruffini mandolin so I'll take you at your word. I have tried Ruffino chiantis which are pretty good. Curiously enough the winery was purchased by the Folonari family (from Brescia!) in 1913.

Mick

[peterk]

Jim, didn't your $1.99 Embergher come with another label over top of the LE one? Or was that another one recently on Ebay?

Mick

Darn, I thought Jim told us he paid $199 for it ?:confused:

[peterk]

Are Ruffinis actually any good? I repaired one and thought it was rather flimsy and not all that well made or decent sounding (albeit rather pretty).

I do not think my Ruffini is "pretty" at all, in fact it is ungainly looking. It is also rather well built, but it suffers from a major neck relief problem. Although I couldn't judge its sound properly because it's not well playable, I think my Ruffini has some promise tonally, and that is why I am having it repaired.

[Jim Garber]

Next thing you know the rumors will be flying that the seller paid me to take that mandolin. Sheesh! :disbelief:

[peterk]

Here's a bit of an update to folks who might have interest in these things.
After having exhausted a number of bridge/saddle permutations in order to improve the mandolin intonation, the last thing I was going to do myself is to address the nut. Lo and behold, after reslotting the nut properly and lowering the string height at it, the mandolin has begun to yield a decent sort of intonation, including the G course. Clearly, the old nut was done in the manner of all other previous repair work on the mandolin: shoddily. Now, my work on it is done, and I am very happy with the instrument sound and playability.
I have also ordered a set of Dogal Calace "Dolce" strings for it ........I am hoping that they might soften a bit of an edge to the A course tone, but that really amounts to gilding the lily. (Right now the mandolin is strung with the GHS "Ultralights".)