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View Full Version : "Inside Llewylyn Davis"--sneak review



belbein
Dec-11-2013, 11:04pm
I'm sure this movie will attract a lot of interest, since so many of us are folk music and old time music fanatics. I got to see a preview screening tonight, and wanted to give you a heads-up.

Not to put a fine point on it: the movie sucked.

The music was great, make no mistake. There are some pretty impressive musical performances. Unfortunately, between the nice performances, there were long stretches of dismal interaction, boring dialogue, and repetitive scenes, and the most unremitting bleakness I've seen since "Leaving Las Vegas."

So, there's good music. And the actors turn out excellent performances. But other than that: nothing. There is no story. There are no characters, either: they are all one-dimensional stereotypes. Nor is there any character development: not one of the characters is any different at the end of the film than at the beginning. The title character learns nothing, changes not at all, comes to no great revelation--not even a tiny glimmer of movement--and the end is (literally) the beginning.

Properly speaking, there aren't really even characters. They are all recognizable folk-music stereotypes: the upper-middle-class folk music codependents, the groupies, the Beat poets, the mercenary agents, the bright-eyed-and-bushy-tailed winners on their way up and the continually losing losers on their way down. None of them is even two dimensional. And nobody--not a single character--comes out of the movie without the director and writers sneering at them with complete disdain. (With the possible exception of a cat or two, which come off pretty well.)

So: no plot, no characterization, no moral to this story. At best, a half dozen good songs, one or two interesting cinematography choices, and two cats. At worst: there are several hours of my life that would have been better spent working scales, finishing my GBOM, or even cleaning the bathtub drain.

I hope this saves a few of you a few dollars and a few priceless hours of your life.

Dave LaBoone
Dec-11-2013, 11:24pm
Thanks for your review. I've been listening to the album a LOT, and was looking forward to the film, but maybe I'll be better off spinning the soundtrack at home instead. Great music!
Best,
Dave

coletrickle
Dec-12-2013, 12:27am
Thanks for your thoughts on this. Interesting reviews from the critics out there. Many glowing reviews, while others say it falls short. Now I'm intrigued :)

I noticed this part of your review..."Nor is there any character development: not one of the characters is any different at the end of the film than at the beginning. The title character learns nothing, changes not at all, comes to no great revelation--not even a tiny glimmer of movement--and the end is (literally) the beginning."

For any literature buffs out there...does that bear a resemblance to a James Joyce novel...i.e. Finnegans Wake? It's been a while since college lit for me. One of the reviews I read noted that a cat is prominent fixture in the movie...with the name Ulysses. The film covers just a couple of days as well, from what I read.

The Coens tackled Homer in Oh Brother...maybe this is a stab at Joyce? Maybe it is just too late and I need to go to bed!

Petrus
Dec-12-2013, 12:33am
You seem to be in the minority as other reviewers have praised this film. I like anything by the Coens (even The Ladykillers and Intolerable Cruelty!) and I'm looking forward to this.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-inside-llewyn-davis-movie-reviews-20131206,0,1290338.story#axzz2nEfv9H93

ald
Dec-12-2013, 8:41am
I beg to disagree, I thought the film was fabulous. The cinema was packed and everyone fully enjoyed it. Memerising performances, beautiful directing, good music.

Larry S Sherman
Dec-12-2013, 9:29am
...and two cats.

You had me at "Cats"! :)

110870

I tend to like things others hate, and vice versa, so now I'm really looking forward to it.

Thanks!

Larry

cayuga red
Dec-12-2013, 9:40am
" I hope this saves a few of you a few dollars and a few priceless hours of your life."[/QUOTE]

Many thanks. You've provided a great service to Cafe members. Thanks for posting!

Jim Garber
Dec-12-2013, 9:49am
Full multiple thumbs-down, belbein? I am surprised.

I haven't seen it yet but it is tops on my list. I love all the Coen Bros. movies but I am a fan of the dark and quirky. The reviews in the NY Times and the New Yorker were largely positive. That, of course, doesn't mean it is automatically an amazing film. This was supposedly loosely based on Dave Van Ronk's biography and the plot structure based on Homer's Odyssey on which of course Joyce based Ulysses. The major criticism I have read talked about the personality of Llewyn Davis (misspelled BTW on the thread title) being sort of nebulous. I will report back when I actually see it.

mandocrucian
Dec-12-2013, 10:44am
So... in comparison to The Master (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1560747/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1), where does it lie on the "WTF?/I blew $$$ on this?" scale?

Also on the "WTF? :disbelief:" list:
Valhalla Rising (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0862467/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)
Melancholia (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1527186/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1a)
Eraserhead

Depresso list:
Valhalla Rising
The Road
Melancholia (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1527186/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1a)
Eraserhead

jaycat
Dec-12-2013, 10:59am
If a film isn't in black and white and doesn't feature either Sydney Greenstreet or Peter Lorre, I can always find something else to do.

Dave Hicks
Dec-12-2013, 11:05am
I'm looking forward to it (if it ever opens out here in the provinces), but I'm not expecting a cheerful, uplifting experience.

D.H.

sgarrity
Dec-12-2013, 11:47am
It's worth going just to listen to the soundtrack

Jim Garber
Dec-12-2013, 12:00pm
I know that trailers can be deceptive but when I watched a couple of them for this movie I wanted to see it even more. As Sean says, the soundtrack would make it worth it. Then again, I am a Coen Brothers fan.

FaXuXJy-BBQ

mandolino maximus
Dec-12-2013, 1:09pm
I loved Fargo, but friends from just north of Minnesota (and with about that accent) thought it was the most horrid movie ever. Sometimes "warts and all" portraits come off that way.

foldedpath
Dec-12-2013, 2:13pm
Coen Bros. movies are something of an acquired taste, and it looks like this is also about New York City life, which is another acquired taste.

I don't want to live in NYC or be a folksinger, but I'll see this when it comes out on Netflix, just because it's a Coen Bros. movie. I haven't loved everything they've done, but I've enjoyed most of their work, and every film has at least been interesting.

Timothy S
Dec-12-2013, 2:30pm
I saw the film last night and enjoyed it. It's a "slice of life" story rather than an epic with intense dramatic tension and resolution. I'm not biased towards the Coens' films, but I'll say the cinematography was beautiful and most of the acting was great, save for one actress. I certainly can see how the film won't appeal to a wide audience, but if you understand what you're getting into, I think it makes it more enjoyable. For what it's worth, I'd recommend seeing it at some point, though not necessarily in theaters.

jefflester
Dec-12-2013, 5:00pm
Showtime special on the September concert inspired by/celebration of the movie airs Friday:
http://www.sho.com/sho/movies/titles/3398528/another-day-another-time#/index
Punch Brothers provide backup for a lot of the other artists as well.

110912


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs5p7X4rmDM

bayAreaDude
Dec-12-2013, 5:59pm
Sounds great even based on your review. I don't have issues with any of the things you pointed out, in fact, that's how I'd make a movie. Not sure what you were expecting from the Coens - Mighty Wind?

mandocrucian
Dec-12-2013, 6:15pm
Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story

Clement Barrera-Ng
Dec-12-2013, 6:45pm
I remember reading an interview with the Coen Bros that the film doesn't have a traditional plot line, and I thought to myself this will probably not going to go over well with even some of their fans. I'll probably see it when it comes out, but I'm not expecting 'Fargo', 'Barton Fink' or even 'No Country for Old Men'.

OldSausage
Dec-12-2013, 7:39pm
We say we like creativity, but really, we don't.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/12/creativity_is_rejected_teachers_and_bosses_don_t_v alue_out_of_the_box_thinking.html

Bluejay
Dec-12-2013, 8:39pm
There is no such thing as bad advertising. You have spread the word. Even though you say you didn't like the film you are compelled to post about it. The movie has done it's job, it made you think.

belbein
Dec-12-2013, 8:52pm
There is no such thing as bad advertising. You have spread the word. Even though you say you didn't like the film you are compelled to post about it. The movie has done it's job, it made you think.

It did not make me think. It made me mad. It made me sorry that I supported a genre that I despise (the movie/story/novel/play that ain't about nothin') with my presence. I wrote to protest my own participation in the degradation of dramatic arts.

Jim Garber
Dec-12-2013, 9:13pm
It did not make me think. It made me mad. It made me sorry that I supported a genre that I despise (the movie/story/novel/play that ain't about nothin') with my presence. I wrote to protest my own participation in the degradation of dramatic arts.

I guess you were not a fan of Seinfeld either?

Randy Smith
Dec-12-2013, 9:42pm
After today's slice of my life, it's fun to read this thread. I've been looking forward to seeing this film, especially after hearing John Goodman's lines.

vegas
Dec-12-2013, 9:57pm
I'm sure this movie will attract a lot of interest, since so many of us are folk music and old time music fanatics. I got to see a preview screening tonight, and wanted to give you a heads-up.

Not to put a fine point on it: the movie sucked.

The music was great, make no mistake. There are some pretty impressive musical performances. Unfortunately, between the nice performances, there were long stretches of dismal interaction, boring dialogue, and repetitive scenes, and the most unremitting bleakness I've seen since "Leaving Las Vegas."

So, there's good music. And the actors turn out excellent performances. But other than that: nothing. There is no story. There are no characters, either: they are all one-dimensional stereotypes. Nor is there any character development: not one of the characters is any different at the end of the film than at the beginning. The title character learns nothing, changes not at all, comes to no great revelation--not even a tiny glimmer of movement--and the end is (literally) the beginning.

Properly speaking, there aren't really even characters. They are all recognizable folk-music stereotypes: the upper-middle-class folk music codependents, the groupies, the Beat poets, the mercenary agents, the bright-eyed-and-bushy-tailed winners on their way up and the continually losing losers on their way down. None of them is even two dimensional. And nobody--not a single character--comes out of the movie without the director and writers sneering at them with complete disdain. (With the possible exception of a cat or two, which come off pretty well.)

So: no plot, no characterization, no moral to this story. At best, a half dozen good songs, one or two interesting cinematography choices, and two cats. At worst: there are several hours of my life that would have been better spent working scales, finishing my GBOM, or even cleaning the bathtub drain.

I hope this saves a few of you a few dollars and a few priceless hours of your life.

I give you props for boldness. It takes some stones to belittle the Coen brothers this way. Comparing it to that bowel movement, "Leaving Las Vegas," is really going out on a limb when the critics are mostly praising it and this website is populated by people who regard that folk era as a golden moment in musical history.

I began to worry a little when I saw the amount of pre-release advertising. That is always a sure sign of a turkey. The producers hope to generate excitement and get people into theaters before reality hits and the bad reviews start but this one already has the reviewers singing glory hallelujahs.

We will see, but thanks for having the courage to speak your mind this boldly.

foldedpath
Dec-12-2013, 10:27pm
I began to worry a little when I saw the amount of pre-release advertising. That is always a sure sign of a turkey. The producers hope to generate excitement and get people into theaters before reality hits and the bad reviews start but this one already has the reviewers singing glory hallelujahs.

The release date timing in December is also significant, because that's when all the big "serious" films that are contenders for an Oscar roll out. And those are always heavily advertised.

The film has already won some big awards like the Cannes Grand Prix, all of which is irrelevant to whatever judgement we make as individual audience members. But it explains the advertising budget. Probably not shooting for Best Picture, but maybe cinematography and/or musical score.

ald
Dec-13-2013, 3:15am
I thought I had already posted on this subject. Well, here I go again.I saw this play last month to a packed house and everybody was thrilled with it young and old. It's not supposed to be Batman, it's a "film", as opposed to a "movie". Superb acting, great photography, good music. The plot is very loosely based on an autobiography by Dave Van Ronk (I think his name is). For me, as an Englishman, the film, the mood, the art direction seems to have jumped off the record cover with Dylan walking arm in arm with some girl through the streets of New York. A cover that I found tremendously mysterious and evocative at the time it came out and still do. The Coen brothers are members of a small group of filmmakers making thoughtful films.

Mike Bunting
Dec-13-2013, 3:31am
Agreed. But that was not "some" girl with Dylan, it was Suzy Rotolo, his girlfriend at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suze_Rotolo

dang
Dec-13-2013, 6:35am
There are no characters, either: they are all one-dimensional stereotypes. Nor is there any character development: not one of the characters is any different at the end of the film than at the beginning. The title character learns nothing, changes not at all, comes to no great revelation--not even a tiny glimmer of movement--and the end is (literally) the beginning.

Reminds me of another movie they did... which is awesome.
110957

MikeEdgerton
Dec-13-2013, 9:26am
The dude abides.

Fretbear
Dec-13-2013, 9:42am
I loved "Leaving Las Vegas." (I'm the cling-clang king of the ring-rang room!!)
The Brothers abide, they are the last gasp of the still worth-watching film makers........

woodwizard
Dec-13-2013, 9:57am
Always have been a huge Dave Van Ronk fan. So I know I will going to see this one.

Jim Garber
Dec-13-2013, 10:16am
From what I remember of Dave Van Ronk i would have almost thought that John Goodman should have played him. Of course, this movie was loosely based on his early years. When I saw him he was much older and somewhat more portly and cranky. Great performer and guitarist.

jaycat
Dec-13-2013, 11:02am
From what I remember of Dave Van Ronk i would have almost thought that John Goodman should have played him. Of course, this movie was loosely based on his early years. When I saw him he was much older and somewhat more portly and cranky. Great performer and guitarist.

Yeah, "Romping Through The Swamp!"

Mike -- thanks for the link. I didn't know that Suze Rotolo had passed away.

belbein
Dec-13-2013, 11:47am
I guess you were not a fan of Seinfeld either?

Well, interesting point, Jim. I did like Seinfeld. What's the difference?

Seinfeld:
A. The characters were all loveable, even Kramer and what's-her-name.
B. Each episode told a story, in which the characters learned something about life, each other, themselves.
C. Each episode had a plot: a problem, a challenge, a resolution.

In "ILD":
A. The characters were all miserable people: from LD, who is a first class schmuck, to the cheating wife of his best friend, to the clueless co-dependent faculty couple ... you wouldn't want to hang out with any of them;
B. There was no story and no character was ever able to develop out of their cycle of repeating the same loser-ness;
C. The plot was: LD screws up and moves on and sings a nice song and then something bad happens; LD screws up again and sings a nice song and moves on and something else bad happens; LD screws up again and moves on again and sings another nice song and something else bad happens.*

Slice of life? Not hardly. It is a slice of a synthetic life, created by people who clearly didn't live that life. Dramatic plots work in the arc they do because that's the way life works: we have challenges, we face them, we reach a resolution. Had the writers/directors actually filmed a biopic of the guy whose life this movie was supposedly based on: now THERE would have been a story. Let's face it: if you have to add a CAT in order to add a plot? Even if you're the Coen Brothers, it's time to trash the movie and do something else. Cause if your plot is so thin that a cat tips the balance? You're in big trouble. (Now a dog, well that's another story.)

________
*If you've seen the movie: where LD actually decides to give up and ship out: THAT would have created some dramatic tension and character development. But instead, the writers chose to just loop back to the beginning again, giving up any hope of any of the traditional elements of drama.

jaycat
Dec-13-2013, 12:05pm
. . .
Seinfeld:
A. The characters were all loveable, even Kramer and what's-her-name. . . .
That must've been a different "Seinfeld" show than the one I used to watch occasionally, in which the characters were all self-centered and directionless.



. . .that's the way life works: we have challenges, we face them, we reach a resolution.

Would that it were so neat and tidy.


if you have to add a CAT in order to add a plot?

Now you are REALLY striking below the belt!

catmandu2
Dec-13-2013, 12:24pm
Sounds great even based on your review. I don't have issues with any of the things you pointed out, in fact, that's how I'd make a movie. Not sure what you were expecting from the Coens - Mighty Wind?

+1

catmandu2
Dec-13-2013, 12:28pm
We say we like creativity, but really, we don't.



+1



It did not make me think. It made me mad. It made me sorry that I supported a genre that I despise (the movie/story/novel/play that ain't about nothin') with my presence. I wrote to protest my own participation in the degradation of dramatic arts.

Art very often evokes such a response

Art can be visceral...not always strictly cerebral (although the Cohens are typically well evinced here as well). J and E produce cinema operating on many levels--I;m sure many folks expect a linear tale from them--as their films ostensibly deal on this level too, but there are many levels of detail--where often the greatest interest lies

OldSausage
Dec-13-2013, 12:43pm
A. The characters were all miserable people: from LD, who is a first class schmuck, to the cheating wife of his best friend, to the clueless co-dependent faculty couple ... you wouldn't want to hang out with any of them;
B. There was no story and no character was ever able to develop out of their cycle of repeating the same loser-ness;
C. The plot was: LD screws up and moves on and sings a nice song and then something bad happens; LD screws up again and sings a nice song and moves on and something else bad happens; LD screws up again and moves on again and sings another nice song and something else bad happens.*

Slice of life? Not hardly...

You sure? This certainly reminds me of my life.

Charley wild
Dec-13-2013, 12:55pm
I'll have to check it out. I have never found a reason to trust the critics. When it comes to the arts nobody get a free ride with me and that includes the Coen brothers. Loved some, hated some. But they have proven themselves with me and I'll check out anything they make. Kind of like Woody Allen.
Creativity doesn't get a free ride either. Just because something is creative doesn't mean it's good ipso facto IMHO.

foldedpath
Dec-13-2013, 1:15pm
Touching on a couple of points here:


Well, interesting point, Jim. I did like Seinfeld. What's the difference?

Seinfeld:
A. The characters were all loveable, even Kramer and what's-her-name.
B. Each episode told a story, in which the characters learned something about life, each other, themselves.
C. Each episode had a plot: a problem, a challenge, a resolution.

In "ILD":
A. The characters were all miserable people: from LD, who is a first class schmuck, to the cheating wife of his best friend, to the clueless co-dependent faculty couple ... you wouldn't want to hang out with any of them;
B. There was no story and no character was ever able to develop out of their cycle of repeating the same loser-ness;
C. The plot was: LD screws up and moves on and sings a nice song and then something bad happens; LD screws up again and sings a nice song and moves on and something else bad happens; LD screws up again and moves on again and sings another nice song and something else bad happens.*


If your criteria for a good film is that the characters have to be likable and you'd want to hang out with them, and that the plot has to have a resolution where people learn from their mistakes.... well that knocks out a huge number of what many people would consider film classics.

Citizen Kane, for a start. And films like American Beauty. That would be a very long list of critically acclaimed films with unlikable characters and ambiguous plot arcs. One of the differences between TV sitcoms and films by independent producers is that you can get away with telling unconventional, downbeat stories with unlikable characters.

As for the plot arc... The Dude in Big Lebowski may have been a likable character, but he and everyone else in that film fits your description of "no character was ever able to develop out of their cycle of repeating the same loser-ness," where a sequence of bad things just keep happening and there is no real ending. It sounds like this new film just has less of the signature Coen goofiness in the character portraits.

catmandu2
Dec-13-2013, 1:40pm
". . .that's the way life works: we have challenges, we face them, we reach a resolution."

Well I can definitely see why you wouldn't care for a Coen bros film ;)

I don't wish to be offensive, but--with so quaint a world-view, I would hesitate to offer critique of the arts

Randy Smith
Dec-13-2013, 1:42pm
[QUOTE=belbein;1231856]Well, interesting point, Jim. I did like Seinfeld. What's the difference?

Seinfeld:
A. The characters were all loveable, even Kramer and what's-her-name.
B. Each episode told a story, in which the characters learned something about life, each other, themselves.
C. Each episode had a plot: a problem, a challenge, a resolution.

In "ILD":
A. The characters were all miserable people: from LD, who is a first class schmuck, to the cheating wife of his best friend, to the clueless co-dependent faculty couple ... you wouldn't want to hang out with any of them;
B. There was no story and no character was ever able to develop out of their cycle of repeating the same loser-ness;
C. The plot was: LD screws up and moves on and sings a nice song and then something bad happens; LD screws up again and sings a nice song and moves on and something else bad happens; LD screws up again and moves on again and sings another nice song and something else bad happens.*

Slice of life? Not hardly. It is a slice of a synthetic life, created by people who clearly didn't live that life. Dramatic plots work in the arc they do because that's the way life works: we have challenges, we face them, we reach a resolution.


Comparing a thirty-minute network show with a film is awkward given a film has a lot longer time to do a lot more than a tv show does. You're right: a sitcom has something like a problem and then a solution (probably this happens in twenty-two minutes, not even thirty) since networks assume viewers want each slice of life finished so they can pick up the next slice and devour it. If we also devour a Coen Bros. movie, at least we eat more slowly and aren't faced with commercials to forward through.

Myself, I loved Seinfield and look forward to ILD. I'm not going to use one to criticize the other.

bayAreaDude
Dec-13-2013, 2:00pm
In "ILD":
A. The characters were all miserable people: from LD, who is a first class schmuck, to the cheating wife of his best friend, to the clueless co-dependent faculty couple ... you wouldn't want to hang out with any of them;
B. There was no story and no character was ever able to develop out of their cycle of repeating the same loser-ness;
C. The plot was: LD screws up and moves on and sings a nice song and then something bad happens; LD screws up again and sings a nice song and moves on and something else bad happens; LD screws up again and moves on again and sings another nice song and something else bad happens.*

Slice of life? Not hardly. It is a slice of a synthetic life, created by people who clearly didn't live that life. Dramatic plots work in the arc they do because that's the way life works: we have challenges, we face them, we reach a resolution. Had the writers/directors actually filmed a biopic of the guy whose life this movie was supposedly based on: now THERE would have been a story. Let's face it: if you have to add a CAT in order to add a plot? Even if you're the Coen Brothers, it's time to trash the movie and do something else. Cause if your plot is so thin that a cat tips the balance? You're in big trouble. (Now a dog, well that's another story.)

________
*If you've seen the movie: where LD actually decides to give up and ship out: THAT would have created some dramatic tension and character development. But instead, the writers chose to just loop back to the beginning again, giving up any hope of any of the traditional elements of drama.

I've known lots of ambitious people seeking acceptance through music and this describes them perfectly - their lives are just like this. Sadly, few of them make it anywhere and most are just miserable after having wasted years of their life chasing something so fickle. That right there is all more than interesting enough to chronicle in a movie - a plot isn't needed to paint this picture.

Did you like The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie?

Tom Smart
Dec-13-2013, 2:00pm
Lovable characters who have challenges, face them and reach a resolution is the basic plot of every Disney movie.

belbein
Dec-13-2013, 2:27pm
belittle the Coen brothers this way.

I didn't belittle the Coen Brothers. I actually spoke about their artwork, not them personally. I don't know the gentlemen. If I did, I'd tell them to their faces the same thing. If they can't stand the criticism, they shouldn't be producing public art.


having the courage to speak your mind this boldly.

Uh ... you're welcome, I guess. I don't think I deserve thanks, though. I have never been able not to speak my mind, as any of my spouses*/employers/employees/judges/opposing counsel/professors/family members will attest. I don't see speaking honestly as taking courage. It just takes not feeling compelled to agree with the crowd just because they're the crowd.


"That bowel movement, 'LLV'"--

I'm of the same opinion, but I don't think it was quite that well constructed.

----
*It's lucky my wife doesn't read this. She'd say "SPOUSES?!" with that rising intonation that means, "No more mandolins for you, big boy!"

belbein
Dec-13-2013, 2:28pm
The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie? I think I did, yes, but I can't remember it very well.

belbein
Dec-13-2013, 2:30pm
Lovable characters who have challenges, face them and reach a resolution is the basic plot of every Disney movie.True dat. Also nearly every drama ever written. "Resolution" doesn't mean "happy resolution"--but if there's no change, there's no drama. I believe it was Aristotle (Plato? Zorba?) who said that first.

belbein
Dec-13-2013, 2:32pm
with so quaint a world-view, I would hesitate to offer critique of the arts

I prefer "traditional" to quaint ... and obviously I don't hesitate. No offense taken, by the way. A critic who can't take criticism is like a quarterback who tells sportswriters to "shove it where the sun don't shine." Really, really bad form.

catmandu2
Dec-13-2013, 2:38pm
...if there's no change, there's no drama. I believe it was Aristotle (Plato? Zorba?) who said that first.

Well, there is much drama in the lives of persons resolved to inaction, believe me ;)

However, isn't the decision to do nothing, change nothing, remain static, inert, and continue on as usual...a valid denouement? Perhaps noir, but nonetheless..

OldSausage
Dec-13-2013, 3:55pm
I choose not to decide who's right here.

Jim Garber
Dec-13-2013, 4:23pm
belbein: you are most certainly entitled to your opinion and I may very well differ with you, but I do want to thank you for speaking up. If nothing else, I will be thinking of your comments as I watch this film, possibly this weekend. There is a lot of room for multiple opinions in this world and I like to think I have a relatively open mind to hear and understand where others who differ or even agree with me are coming from.

catmandu2
Dec-13-2013, 4:35pm
I choose not to decide who's right here.

"Right"?

I too appreciate the discourse. My experience (here) is that people are quite reluctant to discuss art, and always enjoy it when we can

Astro
Dec-13-2013, 4:55pm
Watched the 2 trailers above. Heard an interview with the main actor on NPR yesterday. How can I not watch it?

I will wait for net flix, and a quiet mood sturdy enough to withstand the fictitious reality thrown against my delicate disposition.

OldSausage
Dec-13-2013, 7:23pm
Gosh, I am reluctant to discuss art.

catmandu2
Dec-13-2013, 9:08pm
True, it is a mandolin forum...I sometimes forget that

Petrus
Dec-14-2013, 1:37am
I will wait for net flix, and a quiet mood sturdy enough to withstand the fictitious reality thrown against my delicate disposition.

This is the sort of film I want to see on the big screen, if only to see a re-creation of '60s NYC and the Greenwich Village scene back then before NYC got all Disneyfied. (I also regret not seeing Pacific Rim on the big screen, because ... giant robots vs. giant monsters, obviously.)

As for art, well ... everyone's entitled to my opinion. :cool:

111041

ald
Dec-14-2013, 8:55am
Well, the best comment I have seen so far is from Old Sausage:

"You sure? This certainly reminds me of my life. "

dang
Dec-14-2013, 12:22pm
The lead actor on this movie was on NPR's Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me! today

Oscar Isaac (http://www.npr.org/2013/12/14/250791919/not-my-job-actor-oscar-isaac-on-folk-music-vs-filk-music) in well... not really an interview.


Oh yeah, interesting cat stories!

GDAE
Dec-14-2013, 4:16pm
Some of you might find this review from Dave Von Ronk's former wife/manager interesting:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/12/dave_van_ronk_inside_llewyn_davis.php

jmkatcher
Dec-14-2013, 6:00pm
BTW, Dave van Ronk's book, Mayor of MacDougal Street, is a very fun read.

belbein
Dec-14-2013, 10:18pm
If your criteria for a good film is that the characters have to be likable and you'd want to hang out with them, and that the plot has to have a resolution where people learn from their mistakes

Not what I said, actually.

belbein
Dec-14-2013, 10:20pm
isn't the decision to do nothing, change nothing, remain static, inert, and continue on as usual...a valid denouement?

Only for Congress.

Petrus
Dec-14-2013, 10:44pm
BTW, Dave van Ronk's book, Mayor of MacDougal Street, is a very fun read.

Yep, I recall reading it about a year ago ... I hadn't even heard of von Ronk before and did not know what a central role he played in that little scene at the time. He actually did hitchhike from NYC to Chicago one time in an effort to audition for Albert Grossman (then Dylan's manager), to no avail; the event is depicted in the movie (in somewhat fictionalized form.)

Loretta Callahan
Dec-15-2013, 3:25am
Film, like music and art is subjective and there's something for everybody. Who cares if someone doesn't like what you like ... unless someone's itchin' for a tussle 'cause that's their mood. Can't stand lots of music that others consider from the celestial realm itself. If my cup of tea isn't someone else's ~ fine with me. That being said ... if one "doth protest too much" about something they dislike... others tend to jump in and the mosh pit begins.

I've experienced folks going absolutely postal if I dared to criticize or not like their favorite musicians or films. They'd be relentless trying to change my mind. Please. That's not the case here, but it's kinda relevant. There's room for everybody's taste ..... or is there? ;)

I lived the 60's beat/folk scene of the SF Bay Area as a wife, girlfriend and mother. My husband and later relationships were with those I suspect the Cohen brothers are attempting to portray in their new film. As great as the music was back then, can't say I'd ever want to hang out with any of those lads today. I certainly wouldn't tolerate the degree of narcissism, irresponsibility and vapidness I considered "normal" when I was young and naive. I saw a lot of men walk away from children they bore, for example. A few, very few, of those good musicians went on to develop into fine human beings. The rest, well, not so much. Those (now) old guys can still sing, write and/or play well ... a few became pretty famous and still tour. Happy to say I can separate from their personalities and enjoy their music. Good music is good music for me.

I'll definitely see the film knowing that I can focus on the music if it's awful. I've liked about 2/3 of the Cohen Brothers films. Trying really hard to be edgy can work out very well, as in "Fargo", or can really suck (don't feel like arguing, so I'll keep the sucky films to myself). Sounds like this film might have been a total crap shoot if not for the music.

catmandu2
Dec-15-2013, 1:50pm
Only for Congress.

yes--politics is a fine example. Albeit, modernistic traits may not be as easily gratifying as romanticism, but the world is what is

Mike Bunting
Dec-15-2013, 2:23pm
I saw a lot of men walk away from children they bore, for example.
I am quite surprised to learn that men used to bear children in San Francisco. Is this still the case? :)

vegas
Dec-15-2013, 2:49pm
From what I remember of Dave Van Ronk i would have almost thought that John Goodman should have played him. Of course, this movie was loosely based on his early years. When I saw him he was much older and somewhat more portly and cranky. Great performer and guitarist.

I saw him in 1968 and he was plenty portly and cranky then!

Loretta Callahan
Dec-15-2013, 4:18pm
Yes, but then this was the SF Bay area. We were pioneers in many areas. The only other place where men began to bear children was in NYC .... in the beginning of the drag queen days. Ah, those were the days! The fad wore off and it was back to the women doing all the heavy lifting, sigh.


I am quite surprised to learn that men used to bear children in San Francisco. Is this still the case? :)

catmandu2
Dec-15-2013, 5:48pm
I prefer "traditional" to quaint ... and obviously I don't hesitate.

Yes, quite--and this is the forum for that (opining). What I meant was--offering such a critique (based upon such narrow ["traditional"] criteria) has little utility (in art criticism) -- equivalent to the oft-remarked "trad bluegrass is the way it should be" is to music criticism, etc. Having certain preferences is fine--just of limited utility in the exercise of criticism

Franc Homier Lieu
Dec-15-2013, 7:15pm
Showtime special on the September concert inspired by/celebration of the movie airs Friday:
http://www.sho.com/sho/movies/titles/3398528/another-day-another-time#/index
Punch Brothers provide backup for a lot of the other artists as well.

110912


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs5p7X4rmDM

Trying to watch this right now (it's on Canadian Netflix) but I can't hear a thing over all of Thile's pick noise. Which is weird, because he isn't even on stage right now.

Loretta Callahan
Dec-16-2013, 12:45am
Odd .... perhaps it's a netflix thing. On You Tube and Showtime .... there's a nice Thiele mandolin sound (not pick noise) , but the fiddle and vocals are much louder.


Trying to watch this right now (it's on Canadian Netflix) but I can't hear a thing over all of Thile's pick noise. Which is weird, because he isn't even on stage right now.

belbein
Dec-16-2013, 1:09pm
yes--politics is a fine example. Albeit, modernistic traits may not be as easily gratifying as romanticism, but the world is what is

OMG! You've solved the problem! That's what's wrong with our government! It's not a political problem after all-- it's that they're Modernists and we need Romantics! (Wait. Maybe they're Dada-ists.)

belbein
Dec-16-2013, 1:21pm
of limited utility in the exercise of criticism

This is a very curious comment and I'd like you to expand on it. Understand, I'm really interested in your thinking, I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm very interested in aesthetics and in the process of criticism.

I don't understand what you mean about classical yardsticks not being useful, because I don't know how you could possibly do criticism without a standard against which to judge the work. So classical criticism might compare a work of art to Aristotle's Poetics' principles, or to the work of some acknowledged expert (like Shakespeare). Freudian criticism against the work of Freud. Marxist against the principles of Marxism. Feminist criticism against ... well, God knows what. Etc. So perhaps you're saying that you disagree with my choice of yardsticks, not about a lack of utility. Maybe you think that classical criticism or classical principles are no longer relevant in today's world. In which case we disagree, but I understand you.

The problem with small-b bluegrass that you reference seems similar but is actually different. The problem is not that people compare New Grass with Bluegrass and condemn it for not being identical with iconic capital-B Bluegrass: it's valid (if narrowminded) to use Bluegrass to judge bluegrass. The problem is really that people who use Bluegrass as a standard don't understand that they're using Bluegrass as a standard, and that a person could choose other standards against which to judge the music. Or to put it another way, they don't understand that it's music, not Holy Writ. Which gets back to my point about your disagreeing with my standard, I think.

OldSausage
Dec-16-2013, 2:41pm
The problem is really that people who use Bluegrass as a standard don't understand that they're using Bluegrass as a standard, and that a person could choose other standards against which to judge the music.

Presumably because we are all such pathetically ignorant dirt farmers.

Mike Bunting
Dec-16-2013, 2:55pm
Presumably because we are all such pathetically ignorant dirt farmers.

Why you casting aspersions at dirt farmers? They are usually sharper than lawyers.

OldSausage
Dec-16-2013, 3:20pm
If I grow a field of aspersions, I'll eat them before I throw them at anyone.

Timmando
Dec-16-2013, 3:28pm
Maybe the Coen brothers and Larry David should get together and do a 3 hour movie. It might be about nothing, but it would be hilarious. I have never heard of Llewyln Davis, so is this a movie about a talented musician going thru the daily grind (of paying dues) that never pays off? If so, it is more true to life than the winners, like Dylan. I'll definitely see it because I have liked all of the other movies I've seen by the Coen brothers. But then, I'm pretty easy to please...

Gregory Tidwell
Dec-16-2013, 4:15pm
Personally I cannot wait to see this. The fact that somebody hated it makes me want to see it more, to judge for myself. As far as I am concerned, spending two hours with the Coen brothers is time well spent.

belbein
Dec-16-2013, 4:16pm
Presumably because we are all such pathetically ignorant dirt farmers.

Huh?

catmandu2
Dec-16-2013, 4:20pm
OMG! You've solved the problem! That's what's wrong with our government! It's not a political problem after all-- it's that they're Modernists and we need Romantics! (Wait. Maybe they're Dada-ists.)

Actually, I was addressing a problem of aesthetics--not strictly as pertains to political processes (and processors)

catmandu2
Dec-16-2013, 4:22pm
I don't understand what you mean about classical yardsticks not being useful, because I don't know how you could possibly do criticism without a standard against which to judge the work.

Of course--we all have our frames of reference. My point is, generally, the wider it is--the more useful it tends (WRT human behavior, at least). Perhaps I didn't realize your viewpoint was/is broader than what it seemed

Perhaps I missed your stated reference theory in your OP--I admit I probably didn't read it all. My apologies if so, for my error

Jim Garber
Dec-16-2013, 11:44pm
Showtime special on the September concert inspired by/celebration of the movie airs Friday:
http://www.sho.com/sho/movies/titles/3398528/another-day-another-time#/index
Punch Brothers provide backup for a lot of the other artists as well.

I just finished watching this whole show. Wonderful music, Thile is in lots of it. Milk Carton Kids, Gillian Welch/David Rawlings, Lake Street Dive, Oscar Isaac and Rhiannon Giddens and, of course the Punch Brothers were among my favorites. Definitely worth seeing and hearing.

Dagger Gordon
Dec-17-2013, 4:16am
I think the footage of the New York concert looks super!

I don't know some of these people. It seems to to be an interesting and clever mix of really popular younger names like Mumford and Jack White plus people I don't know at all (eg Milk Carton Kids), established younger performers Welch/Rawlings and then Joan Baez who is a genuine link to the era the film is about.

And do you know, it looks like they are having a great time! None of the rather jaded, going through the motions stuff here. as Chris says "Everyone here is going for it."

Whatever your misgivings about the movie, I'm definitely planning to go to see it.

It is a chance for people to re-ignite some enthusiasm for stuff that is good to sing round the campfire with acoustic instruments. I like Chris' comments about "Downtown New York being America's campfire."

Incidentally, how many people nowadays have ever sung around a campfire?

Paul Kotapish
Dec-17-2013, 1:33pm
Incidentally, how many people nowadays have ever sung around a campfire?

That happens pretty regularly out here at festivals or at music camps or when we go camping. We even sing and play around contained fire circles in the back yard when we aren't having a spare-the-air streak. When the air is bad we just fire up a few lava lamps and pretend.

BTW, there was a nice interview with Ethan and Joel Coen about Inside Llewyn Davis on Fresh Air today (Tuesday, December 17). They post the audio and transcripts in the afternoon. Worth catching: http://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/

catmandu2
Dec-17-2013, 1:48pm
I see Jack White is involved here again. I wonder how folks are feeling about him these days? Is he still castigated as a poseur in "old-time" music?

vegas
Dec-17-2013, 2:45pm
Interesting input from some people who were actually part of that folk scene era:

http://carpetbagger.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/16/the-truth-squad-takes-on-llewyn-and-wolf/?src=dayp&_r=0

Paul Kotapish
Dec-17-2013, 4:01pm
Here's the longer Vulture article (http://www.vulture.com/2013/12/inside-llewyn-davis-reflect-folk-scene-dave-van-ronk-wife.html) on the same theme.

It's worth remembering that the Coen Brothers are not claiming that their movie is supposed to be an accurate biopic about Dave Van Ronk or any of the other real-life characters that inspired this fiction.

And while his ex may remember Dave Van Ronk as “brilliant, funny, talkative, and charming,” others recall a different side of him, too. I hosted him and put on a concert for him about 10 years after the period depicted in the movie, and he was considerably less than charming, funny, or talkative then.

There are a bunch of books about the village in the '60s, including Dylan's Chronicles, Suze Rotolo's A Freewheelin' Time, David Hajdu's Positively 4th Street, Van Ronk's Mayor of MacDougle Street, et al, and they paint a pretty varied portrait of the scene at the time--one that could include a much darker set of remembrances.

Timmando
Dec-17-2013, 4:49pm
Thanks for posting the names of the books from that time. I enjoy reading that kind of stuff.

Eric Hanson
Dec-17-2013, 7:21pm
FWIW
There was a very interesting interview of the Coen Bros today on Fresh Air. Gave a fair amount of insight into the movie and their thinking. I would guess the interview could be found on the Fresh Air archives.

vegas
Dec-18-2013, 12:35am
Thanks for posting the names of the books from that time. I enjoy reading that kind of stuff.

Positively 4th Street is the best book I've read about this early folk era. Chronicles, the next best book about the era is a good read, but pretty non-linear and definitely weird.

terzinator
Dec-18-2013, 3:35pm
So should I see this movie or not? Cut to the chase, people.

OldSausage
Dec-18-2013, 3:39pm
The only person who's actually seen it is Belbein, and he says no. Everyone who hasn't seen it says yes. But the review aggregator RottenTomatoes says yes, so I'd go with that.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/inside_llewyn_davis_2013/

jesserules
Dec-18-2013, 3:45pm
so should i see this movie or not? Cut to the chase, people.

reply hazy try again later

Jim Garber
Dec-18-2013, 4:37pm
I do want to see it:


I like most of the Coen Brothers movies
I liked Oscar Isaac on the Showtime Special
I liked the music for the most part that was played on that special, much of it is in the film
I am an adult and theoretically can make my own decisions. :)


BTW it just came to a theater near me last weekend so hopefully this weekend more of us will be able to see it and have his/her own valid opinion.

belbein
Dec-18-2013, 9:24pm
Belbein, and he says no. ... review aggregator RottenTomatoes says yes, so I'd go with that.


You'd choose rotten tomatoes over me? Well I never!

Astro
Dec-18-2013, 10:47pm
I havent seen it, but I saw a movie about the movie.

FL Dawg
Dec-19-2013, 11:35am
But other than that: nothing. There is no story. There are no characters, either: they are all one-dimensional stereotypes. Nor is there any character development: not one of the characters is any different at the end of the film than at the beginning.

That sounds a lot like another Coen Brothers film: A Serious Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Serious_Man). It was not very rewarding to watch and I wouldn't be surprised if they followed a similar formula for this one.

I have higher hopes for this movie, at least the music can redeem it a bit. As much as I love John Goodman, it was disappointing to see him yet again in a similar role to his other Coen Brothers appearances.

belbein
Dec-19-2013, 1:54pm
There was a little bit of talk about film criticism earlier in this string, and to those that are interested I thought this adds a perspective (from Sunday's NYT, which I just read this morning):

Leon Wieseltier, literary editor of the New Republic said that we label food if we believe it has a deleterious consequences and critics are perfectly within their rights to label books [and movies ... and maybe even mandolins] the same way.

Moreover, a person "has a solemn obligation to speak out negatively against ideas or books that he or she believes will have a pernicious or misleading effect upon people's understanding of important things. To do otherwise would be cowardly and irresponsible. If one feels that a value or a belief or a form that one cherishes has been traduced, one should rise to its defense."

I would never use the word "traduced," but this pretty much sums up my philosophy. But then I also believe that if a person takes a public stand, he also has to take the rotten tomatoes without complaint.

catmandu2
Dec-19-2013, 2:13pm
I wouldn't quibble with the exercise of critique--it's your approach that seemed lacking in your OP (which you've since elucidated in broader perspective, and which I appreciate)


There was a little bit of talk about film criticism earlier in this string...

A few Coen bros films are funny as hell--I particularly like Fink. Personally, I'm challenged by many aspects of their film-making, which I would do without. But I begrudge no one for differing on that. It's the basis on which we differ--that I find noteworthy

M.Marmot
Dec-19-2013, 2:48pm
That sounds a lot like another Coen Brothers film: A Serious Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Serious_Man). It was not very rewarding to watch and I wouldn't be surprised if they followed a similar formula for this one.


You see... here's the thing, i really liked 'A Serious Man'.

Apart from the secular/Judaic element, which i would not be the best position to understand, I read the movie as a bit of a manifesto piece - the filmmaker as a God figure, who like the Old Testament story of Job, does not have to explain himself or his actions to the players or audience.

Take what you're given - and work with it.
Come in with demands or expectations and you may just end up dissapointed - a movie will play out to it's own plan - no matter how serious one's claims or greivence as an audience/participant might be.

M.Marmot
Dec-19-2013, 2:59pm
Moreover, a person "has a solemn obligation to speak out negatively against ideas or books that he or she believes will have a pernicious or misleading effect upon people's understanding of important things. To do otherwise would be cowardly and irresponsible. If one feels that a value or a belief or a form that one cherishes has been traduced, one should rise to its defense."

I would never use the word "traduced," but this pretty much sums up my philosophy. But then I also believe that if a person takes a public stand, he also has to take the rotten tomatoes without complaint.

As the quoted article speaks of 'irresponsibility', i would ask, does it also tell us what the responsibility of the critic is when making a critique on a work?

Does the quality and reasoning of the critique matter or is it good enough to 'label' a work as pernicious and leave it at that?

catmandu2
Dec-19-2013, 3:00pm
You see... here's the thing, i really liked 'A Serious Man'.

Apart from the secular/Judaic element, which i would not be the best position to understand, I read the movie as a bit of a manifesto piece - the filmmaker as a God figure, who like the Old Testament story of Job, does not have to explain himself or his actions to the players or audience.

Take what you're given - and work with it.
Come in with demands or expectations and you may just end up dissapointed - a movie will play out to it's own plan - no matter how serious one's claims or greivence as an audience/participant might be.

I enjoy multiple meanings, or levels of interpretation in film--the referential is their (Coens) playground, on which the visceral reality of human frailties play. I love it--but we're a weird family of therapists

jaycat
Dec-19-2013, 3:04pm
. . . Leon Wieseltier, literary editor of the New Republic said that we label food if we believe it has a deleterious consequences and critics are perfectly within their rights to label books [and movies ... and maybe even mandolins] the same way. . . .



I can only return to Brendan Behan's oft-cited take: "“Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves.”

― Brendan Behan

OldSausage
Dec-19-2013, 4:13pm
...from Sunday's NYT, which I just read this morning):

Leon Wieseltier, literary editor of the New Republic said that we label food if we believe it has a deleterious consequences and critics are perfectly within their rights to label books [and movies ... and maybe even mandolins] the same way.

Moreover, a person "has a solemn obligation to speak out negatively against ideas or books that he or she believes will have a pernicious or misleading effect upon people's understanding of important things. To do otherwise would be cowardly and irresponsible. If one feels that a value or a belief or a form that one cherishes has been traduced, one should rise to its defense."


Is anyone surprised, though, when a critic announces that a person has a "solemn obligation" to be a critic, and that people who aren't critics are "cowardly and irresponsible"? I venture to propose that they are not.

M.Marmot
Dec-19-2013, 4:15pm
That's a fine crack from Mr. Behan alright - but i can't agree with it... tis a cynics review and for me does'nt make sense.

I'd put it that criticism and art are branches on the same tree.

They are both forms of engagement and dialogue - art can spur critique and critique can spur art - indeed works of art are often the highest form of critique we can manage.

jaycat
Dec-19-2013, 4:22pm
. . . indeed works of art are often the highest form of critique we can manage.

Like which ones, for example?

OldSausage
Dec-19-2013, 4:25pm
Like which ones, for example?

This is one of my favorites:

111313

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_%28Duchamp%29

jaycat
Dec-19-2013, 4:39pm
And then there's the Manneken Pis.

catmandu2
Dec-19-2013, 4:41pm
This is one of my favorites:

111313

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_%28Duchamp%29

Yep, that's a good one for our question here:


Like which ones, for example?

What is art?

M.Marmot
Dec-19-2013, 4:48pm
Mr. Sausage has provided the classic example for twentieth century art...

In terms of pictorial imagery, it could be claimed that impressionism, pointillism, and cubism were critiques of the idea of the picture being a reflection of reality. Actually, i suppose

Social critique could be evidenced through movements such as Dada, Popart or Situationism.

Music... the works and compositions and writings of John Cage.

Or i might also posit Mr. Thile's recent Bach album as a type of critique on the perceptions of the contemporary mandolin.

Film... look no further than those two great critiques of the western genre John Ford's 'The Searchers' and Clint Eastwood's 'Unforgiven. Two solid examples of media as critique right there.

I mean, a critique doesn't just point out supposed defects but it also provides alternatives - a responsible critique should be as positive as it is negative. A critique is a response, all art is a response - and a serious response should seek not simply to provoke but to also inspire.

M.Marmot
Dec-19-2013, 4:56pm
Yep, that's a good one for our question here:



What is art?

Oh holy moly - that's right up there with blue chips and toneguards.

catmandu2
Dec-19-2013, 4:57pm
Yes, thank you for that M.Marmot (I mean your post #112)--who gave several good examples, and of course there are many more

It will take some effort to see art images beyond their overt physical dimension only. We all see life through various heuristics. Art--unlike many other methods of human communication--can unify the most truths, and its methods offer transactions in many modes

M.Marmot
Dec-19-2013, 5:16pm
Yes, thank you for that M.Marmot (I mean your post #112)--who gave several good examples

It will take some effort to see art images beyond their overt physical dimension only. We all see life through various heuristics. Art--unlike many other methods of human communication--can unify the most truths

I like to think of that 'effort' as the work part of art-work... i don't know if it reveals any great truths though - it reveals more possibilities than truths.

On note of thread consolidation - did somebody say that 'I.L.D' is spurred on by Joyce's Ullyses (another grand modernist piece of media as critique)?

Given that 'O Brother' moves from 'The Oddysey', which in itself inspired Ullyses, does that mean that 'ILD' should be seen in relation with 'O Brother'? An contemporary updating or commentary so to speak... should the movies be read in relation to each other?

catmandu2
Dec-19-2013, 5:23pm
I like to think of that 'effort' as the work part of art-work... i don't know if it reveals any great truths though - it reveals more possibilities than truths.



That's probably better stated. My use of "truth" is purely anecdotal; unlike positivism, formal systems of metaphysics, etc., it's reflexive and can dwell in multiple aspects at once--including the purely speculative. Aside from its critical aspects, it can form the confluence of disparate formalisms that may converge in a unified field. For me, the possibilities afforded by the methods of art are the most tangible, most direct. In a word--it's the most accurate, "truist" metaphor

I should just say that I've followed the way of the aesthete, and leave it at that ;)

Randolph
Dec-19-2013, 6:51pm
This is just a simple note of thanks for the civilized nature of this thread. I'll admit that I have had to put fire to a few rusty brain cells in order to follow some of it, but that's not a bad thing for this old brain. This thread has wandered a bit far afield from the usual "can I use a capo and a blue chip pick while learning to play 'Angelne the Baker,'" but it has been fun. And, although it has been years since I have actually visited a movie theater, I plan on seeing ILD...perhaps with fresh eyes and ideas. Thanks again.

catmandu2
Dec-19-2013, 7:00pm
...perhaps with fresh eyes and ideas.

That's the best

jaycat
Dec-19-2013, 8:18pm
Mr. Sausage has provided the classic example for twentieth century art...

In terms of pictorial imagery, it could be claimed that impressionism, pointillism, and cubism were critiques of the idea of the picture being a reflection of reality. Actually, i suppose

Social critique could be evidenced through movements such as Dada, Popart or Situationism.

Music... the works and compositions and writings of John Cage.

Or i might also posit Mr. Thile's recent Bach album as a type of critique on the perceptions of the contemporary mandolin.

Film... look no further than those two great critiques of the western genre John Ford's 'The Searchers' and Clint Eastwood's 'Unforgiven. Two solid examples of media as critique right there.

I mean, a critique doesn't just point out supposed defects but it also provides alternatives - a responsible critique should be as positive as it is negative. A critique is a response, all art is a response - and a serious response should seek not simply to provoke but to also inspire.

Interesting examples. Some I agree with more than others. But would you equate the reviews of a film or book critic?

Laird
Dec-19-2013, 8:19pm
I'm looking forward to seeing it, though I'll adjust my expectations now. I'm fascinated by the particular time and place represented in the film, and I assume the Coens made an effort to capture the atmosphere in those clubs pretty authentically. I loved the glimpses I got of the scene (and Van Ronk) in No Direction Home, and I've read all the books I can find on the scene (especially liking Hoot! and Positively 4th Street). I've also loved most of the Coens' movies (except Hudsucker Proxy)--even taught a few of them--so there's no way I'm missing this. Thanks for tempering my expectations, though.

belbein
Dec-19-2013, 8:47pm
As the quoted article speaks of 'irresponsibility', i would ask, does it also tell us what the responsibility of the critic is when making a critique on a work?

Does the quality and reasoning of the critique matter or is it good enough to 'label' a work as pernicious and leave it at that?

I don't know if it's a serious question, but I'll assume it is. It's a very interesting issue, which I've never thought about. There is a responsibility to the reader, always. In this case, I guess the most basic responsibility is to be honest and engage in polite discourse. I would have said that a serious critic would confine him/herself to the work of art, not discussing the personality, politics or sexual orientation of the artist or whatever political cause they want to flog today. But feminist criticism, and Marxist criticism, and Freudian criticism, and so forth, are all strictly political or polemical.

Of course, in English, "critic" has two meanings. It means a reviewer (i.e., "movie critic"); it also means analyst (i.e. "literary critic.") The former is supposed to give us a scouting report. The latter is supposed to give us an understanding. My review was supposed to be a scouting report. I could not have given an analysis because there was nothing of substance to analyze. (Ahhh. I slipped into political/polemical/snarky mode. Very irresponsible. Even if true.)

M.Marmot
Dec-20-2013, 2:15am
Interesting examples. Some I agree with more than others. But would you equate the reviews of a film or book critic?

I would - but again - some more than others... or rather some reviews have made a greater engagement with the piece they are working from.

Many great writers have also proven themselves to be astute critics - for instance, i found the essays collected in Seamus Heaney's Redress of Poetry to be a great read in themselves.

Philip Larkin wrote often on his love of Jazz, his offered his opinion on players, and set forth his pro-Dixieland swing as true jazz platform... again i enjoyed these, maybe more than i agreed with them.

The guys from the French film review Cahiers du Cinema not only wrote with passion and set forth their agendas but many went on later to become resepected directors... Truffaut, Godard.

These though are not the norm and on the whole i will add that I think that the domain of journalistic reviews is deeply compromised by commercial concerns... more often it is the earnest impassioned reviews of amateurs that comes closest to art for me.

M.Marmot
Dec-20-2013, 2:16am
I don't know if it's a serious question, but I'll assume it is.

It was and is a serious question - at least for me.

Thank you for responding.

OldSausage
Dec-20-2013, 8:51am
I could not have given an analysis because there was nothing of substance to analyze.



Fans of the filmmakers will note that “Inside Llewyn Davis” shares more than a little form and substance with “O Brother, Where Art Thou?,” their paean to old-time music and another classical odyssey re-cast as sepia-toned period piece. And like their best work, “Inside Llewyn Davis” lends itself to near-endless exegesis and interpretation, from its atmospheric excavation of the insular, occasionally overlapping worlds of 1960s New York to authenticity as both fetish and Olympian ideal.

Of course, it’s the willingness to embrace artifice in the name of authenticity that marks a true star. In many ways, “Inside Llewyn Davis” plays like a waking nightmare of creeping anxiety and dread, as the era’s grandmaster of brazen self-invention arrives unseen in New York while Llewyn’s self-defeating near-misses pile up like so much street-sullied snow. But this soulful, unabashedly lyrical film is best enjoyed by sinking into it like a sweet, sad dream. When you wake up, a mythical place and time will have disappeared forever. But you’ll know that attention — briefly, beautifully — has been paid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/goingoutguide/movies/inside-llewyn-davis-review-a-poignant-evocation-of-the-1960s-new-york-folk-scene/2013/12/18/c644160a-63ff-11e3-aa81-e1dab1360323_story.html




Compare and contrast.

catmandu2
Dec-20-2013, 11:25am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/goingo...323_story.html

That well encapsulates the movies I've enjoyed by the Coens. I think one would be hard-pressed to critique their work, thoughtfully, without a firm hold on post-modernism; they're prolific weavers of disparate elements--caricature, archetype, lyricism, humor. It may be a style more challenging than some: again, we must look beneath the surface

One more thing about page 5 here. The very nature of art is tenuous. It's a field of inquiry where we ask essential questions, routinely. Meaningful critique is impossible without sharing the ardor of the work of art

jshane
Dec-20-2013, 11:33am
We say we like creativity, but really, we don't.



To quote Frank Burns, "I'm all for non-confomity, as long as we all do it, together, at the same time"

the_polish_mandolinist
Dec-20-2013, 11:44am
Im a huge Cohen brothers fan, can't wait to see this movie

Polecat
Dec-20-2013, 11:51am
A couple of people have referred to the Fresh Air interview between Terry Gross and the Coens, here's a direct link (http://podcastdownload.npr.org/anon.npr-podcasts/podcast/13/252119403/npr_252119403.mp3?_kip_ipx=17768342-1387557894) to the archived mp3 of the interview.
The film won't be coming out till January in Germany, but I'm looking forward to it already.

EggerRidgeBoy
Dec-20-2013, 1:59pm
--

M.Marmot
Dec-20-2013, 3:40pm
--

"A play about the end of one era and the dawning of another, about human violence in a world in which all traditional norms have been swept away, it was intended to be a diagnosis of European modernity."

-Toril Moi-

Thank you for bringing this to my attention - i appreciated your original post.

I've never encountered any work by Ibsen - but i suspect that the 'end of an era' idea that you proposed would be in keeping with the ILD... well from the picture that i am piecing together of it.

That Moi's comment on Ibsen's play, quoted here, could easily apply to the U.S. in the sixties.

catmandu2
Dec-20-2013, 4:30pm
--

less is more

allenhopkins
Dec-21-2013, 4:54pm
Dave Van Ronk's ex-wife, Terri Thai, weighs in, (http://www.villagevoice.com/2013-12-11/film/dave-van-ronk-inside-llewyn-davis/) in the Village Voice. (Warning: couple f-bombs.)

Sorta summing up the reaction I've heard (no, haven't seen it yet; not in Rochester so far) from other veterans of the "folk revival" is this quote from her article:

What bothers me is that the movie doesn't show those days, those people, that world. In the movie, Llewyn Davis is a not-very smart, somewhat selfish, confused young man for whom music is a way to make a living. It's not a calling, as it was for David and for some others. No one in the film seems to love music.

Jim
Dec-21-2013, 6:36pm
Don't know what part they have in the movie but a promotional (for Inside "Inside Llewylyn Davis") television release called "Another Day" had a fine band called "Lake street Dive" nice performance, no Mandolin. Punch Bros performing "Old Triangle" was fun too.

Petrus
Dec-21-2013, 6:41pm
Im a huge Cohen brothers fan, can't wait to see this movie

Then you should learn how to spell their name. :grin:

belbein
Dec-21-2013, 6:56pm
lyrical

I will quote my son, artist and writer: " when a reviewer says 'lyrical,' run."

OldSausage
Dec-22-2013, 2:38pm
But, presumably that's because 'lyrical' is so often shorthand for mawkishly sentimental - which, you've already kind of implied this movie really isn't. Or does he mean something else?

jaycat
Dec-23-2013, 9:40pm
On the topic of critics -- just happened to run into this quote from alto man Art Pepper in his autobiography:

"Although I've been fortunate in receiving fair critical comment as a whole, I really can't say that I'd want to be a critic myself. Even with 23 years musical background, I just wouldn't feel qualified to judge another's performance."

Dagger Gordon
Dec-24-2013, 1:37am
On the topic of critics -- just happened to run into this quote from alto man Art Pepper in his autobiography:

"Although I've been fortunate in receiving fair critical comment as a whole, I really can't say that I'd want to be a critic myself. Even with 23 years musical background, I just wouldn't feel qualified to judge another's performance."

Art Pepper! One of my very favourite musicians.

Still, somebody's got to be a critic, so it might as well be someone who knows what they're talking about.

belbein
Dec-24-2013, 3:54pm
I'm glad to be a critic, even though I don't know what I'm talking about. Facts just confuse people. I learned that from . . . some politician or other.

Hey, I saw the ShowTime special. Excellent stuff. Great music. The actor from the film--Isaac Owen--is a really fine musician and holds his own with a bunch of fine musicians. There's lots of Chris Thile, some assorted Avetts and miscellaneous Mumfords, and too much Jack White (what's the deal with that hair?), and some other odds and ends of folks. Keb Mo gets a credit but I don't recall ever seeing him. Anyway, it's well worth the time if you like traditional and neo-folk.

By the way, I found the tab for "Hang Me, Oh Hang Me"--a great song! Glad to send the link around. If anyone has actually scored out the melody, I'd love to see it. I think it would be great on mandola or OM.

jaycat
Dec-24-2013, 4:03pm
. . . By the way, I found the tab for "Hang Me, Oh Hang Me"--a great song!

Love the version by Chris Massor Nament.

Mike Bunting
Dec-24-2013, 4:29pm
There's lots of Chris Thile, some assorted Avetts and miscellaneous Mumfords, and too much Jack White (what's the deal with that hair?).
What has hair got to do with anything?

jefflester
Dec-24-2013, 4:40pm
The actor from the film--Isaac Owen--is a really fine musician and holds his own with a bunch of fine musicians.
His name is Oscar Isaac.

George R. Lane
Dec-24-2013, 5:21pm
WOW!!!! 142 posts about a movie only one guy has seen. I may have to watch it so I can post my own nonsensical thoughts on it. ;)

belbein
Dec-24-2013, 6:51pm
What has hair got to do with anything?

I don't know. I guess I'm getting old and conservative. And hairless.

belbein
Dec-24-2013, 6:51pm
His name is Oscar Isaac.

Oops. I guess I'm getting old and conservative and hairless and forgetful.

belbein
Dec-24-2013, 6:53pm
WOW!!!! 142 posts about a movie only one guy has seen. I may have to watch it so I can post my own nonsensical thoughts on it. ;)You should. The Coen brothers need the money. And maybe with another opinion, we can manage another 142 meditations on art, life, reality, and hair. Really, what else do you have to do in Montana in the middle of the winter?

George R. Lane
Dec-24-2013, 7:15pm
:sleepy::sleepy:
You should. The Coen brothers need the money. And maybe with another opinion, we can manage another 142 meditations on art, life, reality, and hair. Really, what else do you have to do in Montana in the middle of the winter?


The Coen brothers need more money like I need another snowy day here. What else is there to do but read all these wonderful opunions.

belbein
Dec-25-2013, 11:21pm
[QUOTE=George R. Lane;1235420What else is there to do [/QUOTE]

Catch up on your fly-tying? Wax your cross-country skis? Practice FFCP?

roysboy
Dec-29-2013, 12:43pm
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/inside_llewyn_davis_2013/

Elliot Luber
Dec-29-2013, 10:10pm
You may be correct about the film, but I'm going to see it anyway. I give the Coen brothers the benefit of the doubt.

Jim Garber
Dec-29-2013, 11:00pm
I finally saw this movie last night and I can definitely agree with belbein about it. I generally like the Coen Brothers' films but this one -- tho it had its good points (like the music) -- pretty much left me cold and not sure what the point was. I thought back to The Great Lebowski -- also about a guy who seems to bring bad things on himself but that character was at least interesting and the movie was entertaining. To say the least, i was disappointed in the dramatic aspect of it.

MikeEdgerton
Dec-30-2013, 7:27am
I finally saw this movie last night and I can definitely agree with belbein about it...

Welcome to the road to perdition. :)

Jon Hall
Dec-30-2013, 12:31pm
I saw the movie this past weekend. As I expected, the soundtrack was excellent. I have been listening to the cd for the past couple of weeks. The characters and the plot suffer from too much reality. The "slice" of a struggling musician's life in the early sixties was pretty much what I saw in the coffeehouses, folk clubs and crash pads in Texas during the late sixties. In my opinion, too much reality snuffs out entertainment. If you love the folk music of the sixties and you can handle the non-stop salty language, I recommend the movie. As a side note; Nancy Blake (Norman's wife) actually has a part in the movie.

George R. Lane
Dec-30-2013, 5:26pm
Catch up on your fly-tying? Wax your cross-country skis? Practice FFCP?

Already have about 200 flies tied, don't ski, but I will practice.

Mike Bunting
Dec-30-2013, 5:49pm
What do you with those ties after you tie them up and how do you hold them still while to tie 'em up? Do they get mad?

George R. Lane
Dec-30-2013, 6:16pm
What do you with those ties after you tie them up and how do you hold them still while to tie 'em up? Do they get mad?

Mike,
If I use fermented cow dung it puts them into a stupor, making it much easier to putting the ties on. ;)

OldSausage
Dec-30-2013, 7:06pm
The characters and the plot suffer from too much reality.

This is an affliction that strikes with ubiquity.

Mike Bunting
Dec-30-2013, 7:21pm
Mike,
If I use fermented cow dung it puts them into a stupor, making it much easier to putting the ties on. ;)
And there they are, all dressed up and nowhere to go!

belbein
Dec-30-2013, 10:04pm
definitely agree with belbein about it.

Told'ja.

The Lebowski: The difference was that the characters were loveable. You liked the movie because you liked the characters. This one? I was rooting for the "Leaving Las Vegas" ending.

belbein
Dec-30-2013, 10:05pm
don't ski.

How do you get to your mailbox then?

George R. Lane
Dec-30-2013, 10:14pm
How do you get to your mailbox then?

That is what snowshoes are for.

Canuckle
Dec-30-2013, 10:51pm
This was the best thread in a while.

I saw the movie and was kind of disappointed but I couldn't stop thinking about the movie after which is a good sign, I think. I think our expectations were off because we were expecting O' Brother 2: O' Brotherer. This was more like A Serious Man with a folk album in the background.

belbein
Dec-31-2013, 5:55pm
This was the best thread in a while.

Of course it was: it involved all the major human issues besides sex and violence, to wit, folk music, aesthetics, and the philosophy of criticism. And of course, some of the most interesting people in the Café participated in it.

I'm thinking for my next foray into public rabble-rousing, I'll assert something like: there are authentic versions of folk songs, and all other versions are strictly derivative. Think that will go seven pages?

belbein
Dec-31-2013, 5:56pm
That is what snowshoes are for.

Until this moment, George, I never realized that I have never (in 58 years of life, dayaftatamrraw) lived in a place where anyone had even the most occassional need for snowshoes.

Astro
Dec-31-2013, 10:34pm
Of course it was: it involved all the major human issues besides sex and violence, to wit, folk music, aesthetics, and the philosophy of criticism. And of course, some of the most interesting people in the Café participated in it.

I'm thinking for my next foray into public rabble-rousing, I'll assert something like: there are authentic versions of folk songs, and all other versions are strictly derivative. Think that will go seven pages?

That would be a pop country music singer making a million dollars on a recording of a Folk song played with a capo in "Blue Grass style" on the best available oval-holed Chinese import for under 300 dollars with a Musicians Friend set up and after only 10 minutes on the Tonerite and without benefit of a Blue Chip pick while using a piezo pickup and hybrid phosphor flat wound strings.

emersonarts
Dec-31-2013, 11:30pm
Mandocrucian: You say you did not even enjoy Kirstin Dunst spread out on the ground?
So... in comparison to The Master (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1560747/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1), where does it lie on the "WTF?/I blew $$$ on this?" scale?

Also on the "WTF? :disbelief:" list:
Valhalla Rising (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0862467/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)
Melancholia (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1527186/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1a)
Eraserhead

Depresso list:
Valhalla Rising
The Road
Melancholia (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1527186/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1a)
Eraserhead

Jim Garber
Jan-02-2014, 11:12am
A friend wrote this intriguing analysis (http://occupythearts.blogspot.com/2014/01/outside-llewyn-davis.html) of this film and after reading this I realized why the movie disappointed me.


What’s missing is the spirit – the electric atmosphere that made the Village a magnet for every kind of artistic rebel. Llewyn is a loser, a self-absorbed artist, easily discouraged by failure. Dave Van Ronk was a musical genius and an indomitable force on the folk music scene. He never made money from it, but he never quit, and he never quit because he loved the material so completely that he made it his own, his own identity. To watch and hear him perform for small change in the Gaslight Café was like a religious experience – he hovered over his guitar, savoring notes as he bent them into blues, croaking out the old complaints in his untrained, roughed-up but gentle high tenor voice. Here was a man in love with an America that had practically disappeared in the militarized, commercialized and sanitized world of the forties and fifties. In love, and able to express it in songs he’d copied and adapted from obscure field recordings. And not about to sell it out, or give it up, no matter what.

Richard Eskite
Jan-02-2014, 12:44pm
Haven't seen the movie, but the Showtime special, Another Day/Another Time, has been pretty enjoyable. I really loved hearing Rhiannon Giddens singing the Gaelic milling songs. That was quite something. I'm not all the way through the concert special thanks to DVR tech, so I can't comment on the Jack White ratio, but overall I think it has been pretty good.

It's funny, seeing TBone Burnett stalking around the rehearsal hall with the smoking incense sticks in his hands. I was wondering if he was trying to quit smoking or something, but it's Sao Paolo wood, from what I understand.

Laird
Jan-02-2014, 2:50pm
Someone in this thread suggested going back to the Pete Seeger documentary, "The Power of Song," to get a better feel for the early sixties folk scene. Thanks to whoever that was, because I went back and watched it again for the first time since it came out. In my own memory it didn't contain much about that Greenwich Village scene, and it turns out my memory was right--but I'm still delighted to have seen it again, inspired once more by the spirit and courage of Pete. Here's the link (http://www.veoh.com/watch/v22469156ZWZbbDYK?h1=Pete+Seeger+-+The+Power+Of+Song%28)for free online viewing.

By the way, watching Pete's grandson, Tao, play with him and Arlo at Carnegie Hall at the end of the video inspired me to once again post my favorite clip from Tao's old band, The Mammals (Tao on banjo):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_WaiosGBis

Tom Smart
Jan-02-2014, 3:39pm
In my opinion, too much reality snuffs out entertainment.

Too much entertainment snuffs out reality. That's the world of "Infinite Jest."

As much as I enjoy the Coen brothers, too little reality is the limitation of every one of their films that I've seen. "Inside Llewyn Davis," is the exception, and that's why it's easily my favorite so far. Unfortunately, "too much reality" may doom it to obscurity for fans of their previous work.


There are no characters, either: they are all one-dimensional stereotypes. Nor is there any character development: not one of the characters is any different at the end of the film than at the beginning. The title character learns nothing, changes not at all, comes to no great revelation--not even a tiny glimmer of movement.

I couldn't disagree more. If you want unlikable one-dimensional stereotypes who never change, I'd recommend the more "entertaining" Coen brothers films, "Raising Arizona," "Fargo," "The Big Lebowski," "Oh Brother," etc. I enjoyed all of those, but Llewyn Davis, for all his faults, is the only Coen brothers character I've actually cared about.

If I'm not mistaken, the film comes to an end on a Friday, and I can't help wondering what will happen on Saturday.

MikeEdgerton
Jan-02-2014, 4:14pm
...If I'm not mistaken, the film comes to an end on a Friday, and I can't help wondering what will happen on Saturday.

Spolier Alert: If you don't want to know what happens on Saturday close this message box now....

On Saturday Llewylyn is discovered by John Hammond and signed to a multi-album deal by Columbia Records. I know it sounds unbelieveable but that's the way the story continues. Forty years later he's still touring and is occasionally arrested in New Jersey for peaking into the windows of houses that are for sale.

M.Marmot
Jan-03-2014, 3:57am
A friend wrote this intriguing analysis (http://occupythearts.blogspot.com/2014/01/outside-llewyn-davis.html) of this film and after reading this I realized why the movie disappointed me.

I'm not so intrigued by the linked review as bemused - the main critique seems to be that it is not a biography of Dave Van Ronk or at least the story of a plucky underdog who makes good.

So, am i to draw the conclusion that the movie was dissapointing because LD is not Dave Van Ronk?

That makes no sense to me - it's not Van Ronk's story its that of LD.

If the village we view on screen is a reflection of whats inside Davis then its no wonder it does not live up to the dewey-eyed romaticism that more normally characterise the reviews of that time.

That the Cohen's have not set out to do an exhaustive recreation of the time is not a bad thing, it's titled 'Inside L-D' not 'Inside Greenwich Village'

The simple fact is that for all the vitality and ideals of the folk scene not everyone could be Dylan or Van Ronk. There must have been many shattered dreams before Mr Zimmerman went electric and blew so many illusions. It's true that this point is also addressed in the linked review but it then seems to assert that a success story would be much more preferable.

Surely, the story of a what might have been, and what was never meant to be, has just as much right to be told as the poor boy done good story?

The review then goes on to quote Dylan

"I had already landed in a parallel universe, with more archaic principles and values… A culture with outlaw women, super thugs, demon lovers and gospel truths …. Stagger Lees, Pretty Pollys and John Henrys…. I felt right at home in this mythical realm made up not with individuals so much as archetypes"

I don't know about you but i think many of those characters could tumble out of a Cohen Brothers movie, which is why i am confused as to why this quote should be used as the apparent antithesis to their canon.

A world made up not so much with individuals as archetypes - whole branches of Cohen characters are dedicated to exploring archetypes, cinematic archetypes, American archetypes, Jewish Archetypes...

Stagger Lee - murderer, Pretty Polly - murdered, John Henry - murderer

'What a difference from the mythical realm of the Coen brothers, a fictional America that is conventional on the surface, but underneath seething with anger and despair, ruled by lies, sadism, contempt and irrational violence.'

What a difference? What difference?

The end criticism that the Cohen's do not seem to be ardent fans of the sixties folk scene - well, one does not need to be a fan of something to create work based on it. One can be fascinated and revulsed at the same time by the same thing and it is this very friction that will create the the excitement or interest.

Well, all that and Happy New Year y'all.

Jim Garber
Jan-03-2014, 12:24pm
So, am i to draw the conclusion that the movie was dissapointing because LD is not Dave Van Ronk?

That makes no sense to me - it's not Van Ronk's story its that of LD.

I think that Phillips was talking more of the lack of spirit of the times that is evident in how that LD character is portrayed. You are correct that it is not DVR's story. OTOH the reference cannot be dismissed. Take a look at the cover of the record that the title is based on (including a cat!).

BTW check your spelling... the brothers spell their name Coen.

I certainly understand that the movie was not meant to be a period piece solely about the goings-on in the Village folk scene at that time. It does touch on it of course thru the dark lenses of LD's mind. I guess I just wanted the movie to be a little more than a portrait of a depressed troubled guy.

Mike Bunting
Jan-03-2014, 1:24pm
BTW check your spelling... the brothers spell their name Coen.


Yes, the h is silent. :)

M.Marmot
Jan-03-2014, 2:05pm
I think that Phillips was talking more of the lack of spirit of the times that is evident in how that LD character is portrayed. You are correct that it is not DVR's story. OTOH the reference cannot be dismissed. Take a look at the cover of the record that the title is based on (including a cat!).

BTW check your spelling... the brothers spell their name Coen.

I certainly understand that the movie was not meant to be a period piece solely about the goings-on in the Village folk scene at that time. It does touch on it of course thru the dark lenses of LD's mind. I guess I just wanted the movie to be a little more than a portrait of a depressed troubled guy.

Aye, you are quite right to pull me up on the spelling - a lapse of concentration on my part - mea chulpa.

Still, i guess what i was trying to get at is that most of the complaints about the movie seem to be that it was not what folks were expecting or indeed what they wanted.

What i'm wondering is this - is this apparent disparity between expectation and reality the result of a misleading marketing or is it that the movie really does buck against the accepted idea of that scene?

M.Marmot
Jan-03-2014, 2:08pm
Yes, the h is silent. :)

And the o is bald... but a rohse by any other name would still smhell as swheet. :redface:

Laird
Jan-03-2014, 2:16pm
Until this moment, George, I never realized that I have never (in 58 years of life, dayaftatamrraw) lived in a place where anyone had even the most occassional need for snowshoes.

Even though I get out snowshoeing for exercise as much as I can--especially at night, when the snow adds such unexpected visibility to the forest--their most important purpose at our place is to beat down a path to the compost. 'Course the compost is piling up right now, till the temperatures get back a little closer to zero.

allenhopkins
Jan-16-2014, 4:41pm
In case anyone's still interested, here's (http://singout.org/2014/01/14/inside-llewyn-davis/) a pretty insightful review, with specific references, by Rob Weir in Sing Out! magazine.

brunello97
Jan-16-2014, 8:29pm
Late to the party as usual: We saw the 'new' CoBros film this past weekend. Very underwhelming.

I thought Justin Timberlake was the 'best of show' if that gives any insight into my relative critique. My biggest disappointment was that L Davis was simply such an uninteresting character. (Made me think of Gabriel Byrne in "Miller's Crossing" or John Turturro in "Barton Fink"–why am I putting up with this?) Llewyn Davis was self absorbed to the point of distraction (or parody) and only mediocrely talented enough to offer a counterpoint of interest. But wasn't that the point? That he was only good enough, or mediocre enough for the moment, but not good enough to transcend it? Hence the Dylan character at the film's end.

One would, of course, feel compelled, as others do, to comp Davis to other recent CoBros protagonists: Jeff Lebowski or Ulysses McGill, but that would be very misdirected. Both Lebowski and McGill were optimists if not idealists with firm moral compasses. Even to the academic eye, Jeff Lebowski should be seen as one of the Great American Heroes of 20th C fiction. (Comp JL to anything from the pen of Thomas Wolfe, for instance.) Davis's dedication to his 'art' as opposed to Jim and Jean's 'careerism' was completely unconvincing.

Compared to Jeff Lebowski, Llewyn Davis is narcissistic, sniveling, self destructive in a way that drags others down with him (the exact opposite of Lebowski) and resolutely neither Celtic nor Italian in his demeanor. You can't fake that stuff. Oscar Isaac just didn't get it for me. He was more like an unwatchable Seinfeld creation. Van Ronk would be spinning in his grave.

For us, when John Goodman's character appeared in the story, we knew two wheels had gone into the ditch. A desperate attempt for yucks from a stock CoBros' character. Fell way way flat.

High points: the cinematography throughout and the set / production design: exquisite. The sound quality was extraordinary. Got to be an Oscar in there for that. (The folk singing put me in the mind of John Belushi in Animal House.) The detail in the scenes in the Columbia U faculty apartment were brilliant, as were the cable-knit-sweaters on the Irish Rover dudes. Justin Timberlake was like an outtake from "A Mighty Wind" throughout. A revelation to me that the guy could pull such subtlety off. Very good work.

Why not more of that and less brutally painful (and repetitive) confrontation scenes between LD and whichever friend / supporter he was pixxing off next?

For us, it was a really flawed, off-target movie throughout. The CoBros are extraordinarily skilled filmmakers. I hope this doesn't scare others off from wanting to explore this seminal period in American culture and music. I wish them (and T Bone Burnette) the best in their next collaboration.

Mick

KEB
Jan-17-2014, 11:41am
Despite the generally negative reviews from cafers, I'm heading out this weekend to check it out.

Even if the movie stinks, I will throw out a recommendation for the concert film on showtime-- Another Day/Another Time. It's a concert put together by T-Bone Burnett with music somehow related to the film. It's a pretty remarkable collection of musicians-- Punch brothers play as a kind of house band, Gillian Welch, David Rawlings, Avett Brothers, Carolina Chocolate Drops, The Milk Carton Kids (who I've never heard before, but wow-- those harmonies), Jack White, Willie Watson, Joan Baez, one of those mumford guys.

It's a really impressive show and worth watching-- even if you didn't like the movie.

Jim Garber
Jan-17-2014, 11:54am
The movie is worth watching. It is not a terrible movie just disappointing IMHO. I loved the Another Day/Another Time. Lots of incredible playing and singing. Highly recommended.

OldSausage
Jan-17-2014, 11:55am
Here's the link to the trailer for Another Time/ Another Day.

http://www.sho.com/sho/movies/titles/3398528/another-day-another-time-celebrating-the-music-of-inside-llewyn-davis#/index

As for this being an experience you could have around a campfire, well sure as long as you had loads of talented friends willing to devote decades of their lives to getting ready for that camp fire.

brunello97
Jan-17-2014, 10:19pm
Concert movie looks pretty good.

We don't have a TV so that blew right on by. Any sources for watching it on-line?

Mick

OldSausage
Jan-17-2014, 10:42pm
Not yet, as far as I can see, except perhaps for the means of which we do not speak.

Fretbear
Jan-18-2014, 12:48pm
My turn;
The film is brimming with obscure musical and cultural symbols, folk references and cameos.
Nancy Blake as the heckled (and revenged) autoharp player, Chris Eldridge (of Punch Brothers) as the deceased Timlin. The painting of the only known photograph of Buddy Bolden (Ondaatje’s Coming Through Slaughter) in the apartment building, Johnny 5 as a generic Neal Cassidy. The interplay between the two “Fare Thee Well” songs.
To this lover of real folk music, Oscar Issac’s performances were all riveting and emotionally shattering. So easy for people to sit back and criticize other people's (often extremely) subtle artistic offerings.

brunello97
Jan-18-2014, 4:09pm
....So easy for people to sit back and criticize other people's (often extremely) subtle artistic offerings.

Actually I think I was leaning forward when I was posting our reaction to the movie. Had to think about it for a little while, too. We had fun catching the obscure references. It was the main thrust of the movie that was a bore. $9 for a 'generic Neal Cassidy' didn't seem like a bargain. (From everything I've read, vintage NC was a non stop motormouth, not a brooding punk. He wouldn't have had to sleep on a drive from NY to Chicago, either.) Watching Llewyn Davis was about as subtle as a migraine.

I'm a real lover of folk music. And good movies. I look forward to seeing the concert film.

Mick

Petrus
Jan-19-2014, 1:38am
It's not a freakin' documentary. The characters were inspired by real-life counterparts but not intended to be spot-on. I don't think Neal Cassidy ever drove with Doc Pomus, though I could be wrong. You might as well pick apart O Brother Where Art Thou for its more fantasy-oriented elements or for not being totally faithful to The Odyssey.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lM_ePgwlM

KEB
Jan-20-2014, 9:26am
My turn;

Nancy Blake as the heckled (and revenged) autoharp playe


I'm 90% sure that was supposed to be Almeda Riddle based on the Arkansas reference. Fun to try to figure out who each band was supposed to reference.

I was a bit confused by the driver-- if it was Neal it was a pretty piss poor imitation of him for the reasons mentioned above-- unless he had more than a fistfull of downers with him on that drive.

belbein
Jan-20-2014, 8:56pm
It's not a freakin' documentary.

And that's the point. It's a story, and stories have plot, characters, conflicts, beginnings and ends. This one had one superb song, endlessly repeated, some good performances ... and nothing else. It should be compared to OBWAT: which had likeable and interesting characters, a good plot, good music, and plenty of obscure cultural references. The Coens just kind of forgot all the things that make a story a story.

Except the cat. They did get the cat. Whooopeee.

OldSausage
Jan-20-2014, 9:12pm
And that's the point. It's a story, and stories have plot, characters, conflicts, beginnings and ends. This one had one superb song, endlessly repeated, some good performances ... and nothing else. It should be compared to OBWAT: which had likeable and interesting characters, a good plot, good music, and plenty of obscure cultural references. The Coens just kind of forgot all the things that make a story a story.

Except the cat. They did get the cat. Whooopeee.

This is just a wild stab in the dark, but perhaps they deliberately set out to confound your expectations?

M.Marmot
Jan-21-2014, 3:59am
Some stories have a beginning and end and some don't

112863

How about a story of a man who realises that the love of his life has been unfaithful to him and is now seeing another, younger, man.

The older man goes on an aimless journey, questioning himself, reliving memories, thinking mundanities, fantasising of what could be.

This man encounters a sequence of characters, strangers, acquaintances, friends, and these interactions seem to steer his course through the hours as much as his own will.

And in the end he inevitably returns home to his bed and his sleeping unfaithful wife.

A day has passed, a man was in turmoil which he fails to resolve, he was by turns aimless and led, the city, the characters he encounters, his wife have all passed their day oblivious to his struggles - he learned no lesson - he starts the day as he finishes it - cuckolded, confused, yet, committed.

112862

Parables and fables have a beginning, middle and end - and a nice little caveat to top it all off.

Stories, literature, film, art, have long evolved from those limitations.

Those people who create through these media's now have a choice what sort of story they want to tell.

They have a choice to fashion a parable or craft an experience to which an audience may or may not relate.

To criticize a story for not being a parable - or a work of fiction for not being a documentary - to criticize something for not being a thing it makes no pretences to be - that is not just.

Petrus
Jan-21-2014, 5:17am
Ironically enough, Garrett Hedlund (who plays the driver "Johnny Five" in Inside Llewylyn Davis, roughly based on Neal Cassady) also plays Neal Cassady in the 2012 film version of On the Road. Remember though, in Kerouac's book, he already fictionalizes real people by giving them fictional names (Dean Moriarty in this case.)

Hedlund also does a good job of playing an up-and-coming country singer in Country Strong (2010), a somewhat melodramatic feature that is still fun to watch for its admittedly soapy peek inside the business of "Nash Vegas."

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1330560/

belbein
Jan-21-2014, 10:13am
112863

112862



My friend, this is a debate--like all debates on aesthetics--that must be had over a single malt unblended beverage. (Semiotics requires dark beer, I think.) Otherwise it doesn't count as serious.

So, look, the bottom line is this. We disagree on literature. You clearly are of the modernist gang, believing that pretty writing is sufficient. Your graphic citations to those two particular works are eloquent evidence of this, as is your dismissal of traditionally structured literature as myth and fairy tale. (By the way, you should take some time to read your countryman, Claude Levi Strauss, or even Foucault, Derrida & Co.: they all believed that story was important, and that it was highly complicated, even as they structurally anthropologized, grammatologied, and deconstructed texts.)

I would argue that in the nearly 100 years since modernism's invention, it has declined and gradually disappeared, except among the very most academic creative artists, or those wanting to show how "highbrow" they are. What we've discovered in the last 50 years is that people still enjoy traditionally constructed stories. Even very sophisticated readers like to have a story, no matter what other narrative or character or thematic or even setting revolutions are invented. It's not a question of literary creations having to be simple (which is what you probably meant by citing myth and fairy tale): it's that people like stories. In fact, one of my old friends, Michai Nadin, a semiotician, says that the smallest element of thought--any thought--is the story. Not the fancy bit of Joycian writing.

So, bottom line: We just disagree. One of us is clearly wrong, but I don't hold it against you. [ :-) ] I still enjoy the discussion.

OldSausage
Jan-21-2014, 10:45am
What do you think about poetry, then? Bit of a sorry waste of time?

Tom Smart
Jan-21-2014, 11:48am
"The modernist gang, believing that pretty writing is sufficient"? "Those wanting to show how 'highbrow' they are"? "Fancy bit of Joycian writing"?

Really deep analysis there, belbein. I'm sure Levi-Strauss, Foucault and even "Derrida & Co." would be proud.

Tom Smart
Jan-21-2014, 11:52am
I have no trouble seeing "traditional story" in "Ulysses" or "Inside Llewyn Davis."

And since the question of "likability" keeps coming up, here's a real shocker: He may be a jerk, but by the end of the film I kind of liked Llewyn Davis. So does, it seems, just about every character in the movie. I think the viewer needs to grapple with that fact before just dismissing it all.

Elliot Luber
Jan-21-2014, 11:53am
I loved the film. Thought it was amazing. I also enjoyed the link above to the historical perspective, but do it after seeing the film. It's not for everyone, but that's what makes it art.

Elliot Luber
Jan-21-2014, 11:55am
What I didn't get was the whole Cable concert about the soundtrack, when the beauty of the movie involved the actual singing and playing by the characters… even if rerecorded. Was Joan Baez in the film? Maybe i missed something.

jaycat
Jan-21-2014, 12:21pm
. . . In fact, one of my old friends, Michai Nadin, a semiotician . . .

Oh good, I need a new pair of glasses. Let me know when he completes the course.

Dave Hicks
Jan-21-2014, 1:41pm
Well, I finally saw the film - didn't love it, didn't hate it.

One theme that I haven't seen discussed in reviews is how the film comments on the "authenticity" of the folk movement. Llewyn was offended by the inauthenticity of his friends doing "500 Miles" and "Dear President Kennedy". This was certainly part of the reaction to the more commercial folk of the day.

So why did he take offence to the Nancy Blake character? Because she had a level of "authenticity" that Llewyn couldn't achieve, having gotten his repertoire from records and from other folkies.

I think the Coens identified a contradiction that was built into the folk movement, and is still relevant today. (At least to me, as I'm interested in a lot of music that isn't endemic to my cultural background.)

D.H.

belbein
Jan-21-2014, 3:53pm
What do you think about poetry, then? Bit of a sorry waste of time?

Me? Of course not. But poetry isn't prose, and all prose isn't fiction. We were talking about fiction, of which fictional film is a part. And given the restrictions that the medium forces on the narration, I think what I said is even more true of film and theater. But I'd have to be on my second scotch to talk about that.

belbein
Jan-21-2014, 3:54pm
Oh good, I need a new pair of glasses. Let me know when he completes the course.

It took me a minute, but good pun. If he were a semioptician, would that mean he makes glasses for only one-eyed people?

belbein
Jan-21-2014, 3:57pm
"The modernist gang, believing that pretty writing is sufficient"? "Those wanting to show how 'highbrow' they are"? "Fancy bit of Joycian writing"?

Really deep analysis there, belbein.

Well, what can you do? I can't write in French. And no REAL literary criticism is written in English. So I had to make do.

Tom Smart
Jan-21-2014, 5:14pm
...yet, committed.

This is why Odysseus, Leopold Bloom and Llewyn Davis matter, and why their stories are real stories.

belbein
Jan-21-2014, 5:32pm
This is why Odysseus, Leopold Bloom and Llewyn Davis matter, and why their stories are real stories.

I don't understand how you get from there to here, so I'm going to (full disclosure) do the lawyer thing and shift the grounds of the discussion.

Earlier you said: "Those people who create through these media's now have a choice what sort of story they want to tell." That implies that people who tell myths and legends DON'T have that choice. But that's a fundamental misunderstanding of how myths, legends and even "sacred texts" narrate stories: the artist always chooses what he's going to tell, and what he's going to make up. That fact is only hidden by the fact that when we say "myth" we mean "Greek" or "Roman" myth, of which we have few examples, and so we think that all of it comes from Holy Writ, i.e., Bullfinch. But anthropologists are pretty clear that every myth is a story told with spin: the equivalent of propaganda. Therefore there are myriad versions of every myth, and no real boundaries between Myth 1 and Myth 2. But all myths have plot, character, and resolutions. And except for the one pimple on the behind of aesthetics that was the modernist movement, so do all fictions. If you look at what people like to read--and I mean "the classics," not the NYT Bestseller list--they nearly all have plot, characterization, conflict, resolution. Because that's the way stories work. And now you should come to Atlanta and I'll buy you a scotch.

Mike Bunting
Jan-21-2014, 7:38pm
It took me a minute, but good pun. If he were a semioptician, would that mean he makes glasses for only one-eyed people?
Just those half frame readers.

Tom Smart
Jan-21-2014, 9:15pm
Earlier you said: "Those people who create through these media's now have a choice what sort of story they want to tell."

No I didn't. You're confusing me with M.Marmot. But I would agree there's more than one way to tell a story.


That implies that people who tell myths and legends DON'T have that choice.

If I thought that, I wouldn't have mentioned Odysseus.


Therefore there are myriad versions of every myth

Which is why I (and M.Marmot) also brought up Ulysses and Inside Llewyn Davis--both retellings of the Odyssey


But all myths have plot, character, and resolutions

As do the Odyssey, Ulysses and Inside Llewyn Davis. In fact, I'd say they're all based on the most elemental plot of all. As T.S. Eliot put it:

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.

Or to paraphrase M.Marmot, Leopold Bloom goes through a personal hell, then returns home and renews his commitment to Molly in spite of it all. Llewyn takes a similar journey, although I'd argue that the Coens cut it off one day early--leaving it to your imagination to figure out what he learns and what kinds of commitments he might make.


And except for the one pimple on the behind of aesthetics that was the modernist movement

Give it a rest. If you want to say "I hate modernist literature," and "I hate Inside Llewyn Davis," fine. De gustibus, and all that. But when you accuse those of us who love these works as being a "modernist gang" who just wants to show how "highbrow" we are, why should we take your critical opinions seriously?

brunello97
Jan-21-2014, 9:34pm
Looking forward to seeing the concert movie.

Mick

OldSausage
Jan-22-2014, 12:11am
Here's an Interview with T Bone Burnett about the movie and music, from the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/t-bone-burnett-inside-llewyn-davis-its-the-story-of-my-life-9067009.html

belbein
Jan-22-2014, 7:01am
Mr. Smart: Until your last point, I thought your rebuttals were all good points. They don't convince me, but good points that support your position. And anyone who quotes my favorite lines from Eliot gets stars in my book. (Though quoting a modernist to defend modernism isn't exactly good argumentation. And he wasn't being prescriptive but descriptive ... But anyway--)

I'm sorry you were offended by my calling "those of [you] who love these works ... a modernist gang." (I DID NOT say you were trying to show how highbrow you are--I reserved that epithet for writers/filmmakers who continue to confuse the use of the modernist style for creative thinking.) In any case, I truly apologize for my clearly over the top, intemperate, gutter language. I regret that I ever used the incredibly offensive phrase "modernist gang." I'm surprised the moderator didn't spike my post, it was so unbelievably crude. I have learned my lesson and shall never use the "g-word" again.

However, all that said: that you don't "respect" my critical opinions? Sorry to tell you that it won't keep me awake at night. Some people get offended when others disagree with them. I don't, and I find it humorous that others do. Nevertheless, I still enjoy any conversation about aesthetics.

The big question is: does all this mean you're not taking me up on the offer of that single malt next time you're in Atlanta? Oh--sorry--maybe it's not modern enough for ya.:grin:

Tom Smart
Jan-22-2014, 2:35pm
I'm not offended at all. You said you wanted a debate; I'm giving you one.

What I'm saying is, by dismissing an entire category of "modernism" as a "pimple on the behind of aesthetics," and dismissing any work you don't like by simply placing it within that predefined category, you're not actually doing criticism. You're not engaging with the work itself or with the arguments of its defenders. So when you say you want a critical debate, why should I take you seriously? I'll "respect" your critical opinion when you offer one.

I'd love to take you up on the single malt, but I don't get to Atlanta very often.

brunello97
Jan-22-2014, 2:43pm
Remote drink buying app. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/skip-bar-line-buy-drink-mobile-app-coming-new-york-article-1.1407986)

Could make on-line 'debates' better or worse.

Mick

catmandu2
Jan-22-2014, 4:22pm
Myth = propaganda
People = rational beings
Modernism = nothing of value

I think I get where you're coming from. I'm afraid Tom is correct; your positions/platitudes leave little room for meaningful engagement

belbein
Jan-22-2014, 5:10pm
Myth = propaganda
People = rational beings
Modernism = nothing of value

I think I get where you're coming from. I'm afraid Tom is correct; your positions/platitudes leave little room for meaningful engagement

In your summary, I'm afraid I wouldn't know where I'm coming from.

belbein
Jan-22-2014, 5:13pm
a "pimple on the behind of aesthetics,"

OK, well maybe that was a bit argumentative.

By the way, I don't place all work I don't like within the "modernist" category. For example, I dislike "Lord of the Rings" in nearly every particular as work of literature. But it's mythic claptrap, not modernist claptrap.

belbein
Jan-22-2014, 5:15pm
Teledrinking! What a great idea.

J.Albert
Jan-23-2014, 6:47pm
I was a film fan years ago -- these days, not so much (except for finding and re-viewing the old ones).

I watched "Inside Llewylyn Davis" a few days' back.

My take: dull, lifeless, with a dumb and crude central character who was pretty much responsible for his own failures. No wonder this guy never got anywhere in the music world -- he probably wouldn't get far in the merchant marine, either!

Just about all the other characters seemed equally void of anything with which I could relate to or empathize. And I was a follower of the [end of the] folk scene down in New York 'back when...

The music wasn't bad, though. I picked up the "Tom Paxton" character immediately, along with "Mr. Grossman". But amazingly, I saw Nancy Blake singing at the end, and didn't recognize her!

I tried watching "O, Brother" once, turned it off. I enjoyed the soundtrack, however.

I don't think I ever bothered with anything else by the Coen Brothers.
Whatever their "style" is supposed to be, it doesn't seem to agree with me!

Maybe T. Bone Burnett ought to start making his own films... :)

Chief
Jan-24-2014, 5:06pm
Coming in a bit late about this, but finally got to see the movie today. I loved it. Music was great. Central character certainly wasn't lovable- had many warts and was kind of a jerk. So who among us is perfect? He actually reminded me of a musician friend of mine. The Coens' had their usual assortment of quirky characters. That's what I love about their movies. I didn't find it boring at all. It really takes you to that Greenwich Village scene of the early 60's. If you've had hesitations about seeing this movie because of some of the things you've read here, I say go see it. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

mandolino maximus
Jan-25-2014, 8:57am
The movie finally made it to the Chicago area complex nearby and I saw it with 5 other people including my spouse. We laughed quite a bit, remembered the 60s including the baseball wallpaper, and saw a few of the present day people in our local folk music society represented in the movie's characters. And I hear those people traveled further to see the movie sooner and like the movie too. The hilarious (to me) John Goodman rant on folk music rang true as a musician's rant that I've heard pieces of in real life before. We were, however, saddened to learn from the movie that one of our favorite guitar players from Special Consensus and The Infamous Stringdusters, Chris Eldridge, had passed away.

The movie may have had something to say about the deep meaning of art that is the side bar of this post. I'm thinking of the scene where Davis has to give up to go back to existing as a merchant marine and goes to see his aging and dying merchant marine father and sings the song sadly cherishing that existence. My eyes watered and Davis seemingly - finally - realized the deep meaning of folk music. Or not. No pedestals movie making.

guitarpath
Jan-25-2014, 9:29am
We were, however, saddened to learn from the movie that one of our favorite guitar players from Special Consensus and The Infamous Stringdusters, Chris Eldridge, had passed away.

I think the rumors of Chris Eldridge's passing have been greatly exaggerated.

Fretbear
Jan-25-2014, 11:16am
All this talk about LD being a jerk, unsympathetic, etc. is simply some people's opinions on the matter. I had no experience of that, in fact I found him to be quite reserved and gracious in his bearing of other people's dislike and disrespect for him (his lover, his sister, the jazzman Roland Taylor) In the case of Roland Taylor, LD took as much as he was willing to take and then told him to BTFU. I would have responded exactly the same way, and lots of people don't like me either, and like LD, I am good with that.
Lack of Political correctness, which he was refreshingly free of, makes many "square" people uneasy.

Dagger Gordon
Jan-25-2014, 11:49am
It's getting good reviews in Scotland. Alistair Harkness gave it 5 stars today.

It hasn't arrived in Inverness yet, but I'm looking forward to it very much.

M.Marmot
Jan-29-2014, 2:06am
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/all-folked-up-1.1670913

'...the music appears to have been chosen to blend with the decor, which it does, to a fault. It blends so well that, apart from a certain Dublin prison ballad (the accents on which indeed deserve a jail sentence), I couldn’t remember any of the songs afterwards either.'

Taken from a review piece in the Irish Times - which, by and large, finds common cause with many of those who have voiced their dislike of the movie here in the cafe.

It certainly seems that the Co(no -'h')en's have fashioned movie Marmite - with Davis

113411

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/all-folked-up-1.1670913

Oh, and from the same newspaper a review from their film critic which gives it five stars outta five

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/film/inside-llewyn-davis-1.1665476

sgarrity
Jan-29-2014, 2:16am
Still haven't seen the movie. Got the soundtrack a few days ago. Of the two kinds of music, it's the good kind.

Petrus
Jan-29-2014, 2:43am
The film is about several different things, many of them personal, not just about the historical "folk scare" of '60s Greenwich Village. We do see the sudden change coming about in NYC in the early '60s as Dylan pops into the scene and the milieu goes from a casual amateur enjoyment of music to cover charges, long lines of people waiting to see the latest act, the rip-offs of the music business, etc. We see Llewyn begging his manager for royalties that apparently don't exist, his failed efforts to get a big Chicago manager interested in his music (which the guy, based on Albert Grossman, declines with brutal honesty -- Llewyn's stuff is just not commercial enough.) The daily frustrations of the session player, union hassles (the irony of turning down royalties on a stupid novelty song that turns out to be a big hit, just because he needed the session fee that badly.)

I posted earlier a link to an insightful article (http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/12/the-secret-life-of-grief/281992/) which sees the film as a meditation on grief. People seem to overlook one huge part of the film, namely, that Llelwyn is the surviving member of a duo that wasn't so popular to begin with but did sell records at one time before his partner committed suicide. Grossman in Chicago doesn't know that, and suggests that the two of them should "get back together" to which Llelwyn morosely answers, "maybe you're right."

There's another interesting little shot in the film. After playing a session for the novelty astronaut song, Llewyn talks one of the session singers (who he doesn't think much of) into letting him spend the night on his couch. At the guy's tiny flat, he finds that the singer has recorded an album of his own folk songs and has a box full of unsold copies stuck under the couch, and they look an awful lot like Llewyn's own records or that of a dozen other wanna-be folkies. He's also surprised to find that the army grunt who's staying with his ex-girlfriend is also a folk singer. There's something darkly comic about that whole caravan of would-be folk stars which only depresses Llewyn even more.

This is a common theme is several Coen brothers' films ... the hapless shmuck who just can't catch a break no matter how hard he tries, the Job-like character at the mercy of forces beyond his control.

Dagger Gordon
Jun-08-2014, 3:07am
Well I finally got to see it last night. A local film club presented it in our village hall.

I enjoyed it very much. Funnily enough, I didn't especially enjoy the music (but I certainly thought it was bang-on for what the film was about), but I loved the whole atmosphere of the thing.
It seemed to largely take place in semi-darkness, gloom and bad weather. Nobody at all seemed happy - indeed even vaguely cheerful (with the possible exception of the guy who ran the Gaslight Cafe). Sombre stuff.

Quite a bit of the dialogue was not that easy to make out (or maybe I'm getting deaf!

But having said that, I thought quite a lot of the characters were actually quite funny, such as the old secretary woman in Mel's office - indeed Mel himself. That business about the coat was pretty funny I thought.
And Goodman was a gas! The way he said "and Roland Turner will be a thousand miles away - laughing out of his ass" is something I think I will remember for a long time.

By the way, the 'army grunt' as the last poster described him seemed to be Tom Paxton - at least he sang Last Thing On My Mind. He had a rather curious manner, it seemed to me. I've never seen Tom Paxton, but I was surprised to see him portrayed in this way. Perhaps he was/is like that? No idea.

Perry Babasin
Jun-08-2014, 12:12pm
As a disclaimer I must say that my personal musical taste swings far to the eclectic, folk, singer-songwriter, crazy prodigy side of the music-meter, but I love the T-Bone concert DVD that goes with this film. Punch Brothers, Gillian Welch & David Rawlings, Milk Carton Kids. Heck sakes, the Punch Brothers are the house band! I highly recommend.

Dave Van Ronk was awesome. I saw him several times down in LA, (mostly on college campuses) back in the early 70s. His songs and guitar playing and gravelly voice helped to fuel my fascination with fingerstyle guitar playing and folk music. I even got to see him at the Palm's playhouse in Davis the year that he died. To hear that the protagonist of this tale is somewhat of a scoundrel, reprobate and jerk, kind of saddens me.