Capo conspiracy?

[CeeCee_C]

I've repeatedly noted that mandolin players very rarely use a capo.

I could come up with any number silly theories, but could it come down to "Capos? We don' need no steenking capos!"?

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Wait, I thought it was my turn to start an very, very, long and acrimonious thread? I was going to do 'do A style and F style sound different?', but this will do just fine.:grin:

[OldSausage]

There are lots of good things you might want to use a capo on a mandolin for. But, as my first mandolin teacher explained to me, "we don't do those things".

[belbein]

A gentleman does not use a capo.

[allenhopkins]

This one'll go on forever. Suggest you do a search on "capo" and read one of the multi-page threads. Definitely many opinions on the subject!

However, here's mine.

1. A capo is a tool that can be useful at times, especially if you want an "open string" effect in a key that makes that difficult.

2. A capo is not a substitute for learning how to play in those keys, however; it shouldn't be a "crutch."

3. Due to its shorter fingerboard, mandolin is less adaptable to the capo than longer-scale instruments such as guitar and banjo. There's not a lot of room for fretting if you cut three or four frets off the fingerboard by attaching a capo.

4. There seem to be more noticeable intonation problems with a capoed mandolin, also probably an artifact of the shorter scale length.

5. Larger mandolin-family instruments, such as mandola and octave mandolin, are often capoed, with little discussion.

6. There's a fair amount of peer pressure not to use a capo (check those other threads). Bluegrass mandolinists almost never use one (you can find exceptions, but they're rare). One can draw sneers from the anti-capo crowd by using one.

I have used a capo when I was playing in an "odd" key but wanted to sound like a first-position fiddle tune. And I felt no shame. Having said that, I doubt I capo my mandolins once a year -- but I use capos all the time on my mandolas, octave mandolins, and mandocelli.

Summing up my position: use a capo when you feel it necessary or preferable, don't rely on it as a substitute for learning the fingerboard -- and don't make a moral/ethical issue out of it. Just my 2¢.

[mandroid]

necks already short ... Irish Zouk is a whole different story.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I could go find the youtube video of Ricky Skaggs using a capo, and the other one with Darrell Scott using a capo (on a mando). But I will wait for this to go on a little lot longer.

[Austin Bob]

Summing up my position: use a capo when you feel it necessary or preferable, don't rely on it as a substitute for learning the fingerboard -- and don't make a moral/ethical issue out of it. Just my 2¢.

Well said. The only other thing I would add is that all the audience cares about is how good it sounds.

[John Flynn]

I could go find the youtube video of Ricky Skaggs using a capo, and the other one with Darrell Scott using a capo. But I will wait for this to go on a little lot longer.

Also, Sam Bush has said he used one in the studio and the late John McGann used one to win at Winfield. But let's not let the facts cloud anyone's judgement. Bill didn't use one, so that's the end of it!

[allenhopkins]

I could go find the youtube video of Ricky Skaggs using a capo...

Here ya go:

mx3ej4ewkKw

Both Skaggs and Gillian Welch appear to be playing in C using G-position chords, capoed up five frets.

And you can't tell me Skaggs doesn't know how to play in C without a capo. He just wanted the sound of open-string G chords for the song, I guess.

[MikeEdgerton]

Just to help out, here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/search.php?query=capo&exactname=0&starteronly=0&forumchoice%5B%5D=&prefixchoice%5B%5D=&childforums=1&titleonly=1&searchdate=0&beforeafter=after&do=process) is every thread on the Cafe with the word "capo" in the subject line.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

CeeCee_C, judging by the previous threads it looks like you already know the best reason to use a capo on mandolin: string changes!

[bratsche]

Let me get this straight: you've got the instrument with the most miniscule sized scale (or close to it) already, and you'd want to make it even shorter? I doubt I'd even be able to play on such an animal...

bratsche

[Matt DeBlass]

Good lord, this is bordering on politics at the dinner table, isn't it?

Personally, I find that using a capo compounds the already-present challenge of having big hands and playing a small instrument. I bump into it all the time and knock it out of whack. For rhythm playing I've usually found it easy enough to use closed-position chords and just move around the neck. For melody... well, I flail around badly enough when I'm playing in familiar keys, what's a couple accidental accidentals among friends?

[Jim Garber]

Nothing wrong with using a capo if you feel like and it sounds the way you want. Who cares what anyone else says?

I don't use one because I forget where I put mine. :)

[John Flynn]

Let me get this straight: you've got the instrument with the most miniscule sized scale (or close to it) already, and you'd want to make it even shorter? I doubt I'd even be able to play on such an animal...

bratsche

Ever hear of a piccolo mandolin? CGDA a fourth above a regular mandolin. Lots of them in the bowl-back days. Gibson made them at one time and Weber makes them now.

[Timbofood]

CeeCeeC, you've opened a serious can of worms here! Two hours and some of the "notes" have already chimed in! Buying more popcorn when I go out in a few minutes!
I don't use a capo but, there are times when it would make life easier for certain. I don't really have much of an opinion one way or another. I like the " We don't need no steeenkin' capos" reference though, heheheh.
I used to keep one in my case but, I think my banjo player stole it!

[Cecily_Mandoliner]

I finally found the capo I was looking for for my banjo - just to have it, in case I ever learn to play the darn thing. And, my DH said to buy two. So, I put my spare in the mandolin case pocket, since it fits.
The only time I use a capo on my mandolin is when I'm changing strings! I just can't seem to keep control of the string when it's hooked on the tailpiece while I'm adding slack and threading the string through the tuner peg. The capo gives me a temporary "extra hand."
I haven't used it while playing the mandolin.
However, I'm keeping it handy, in case my group suddenly decides we need to play a song I don't know well in a key that's not in our book. For example, we've used the Parking Lot Pickers book a lot. It has the lovely song, Who Will Sing For Me, and the person who requests it likes to play it in a different key for her voice. I've got the revised chords noted, but I struggle with transposing on the fly - so I have my capo handy just to try it, the next time it's requested. :whistling:

[Jim Garber]

Ever hear of a piccolo mandolin? CGDA a fourth above a regular mandolin. Lots of them in the bowl-back days. Gibson made them at one time and Weber makes them now.

Not really. They are pretty rare even in the bowlback days. I have only seen maybe 6 or 7 total. Leland flatbacks were sold by Lyon & Healy -- I have one of those plus one no-name bowlback. I have seen a few pics of Italian instruments even one Embergher. I have never seen any parts for the piccolo mandolin written in mandolin orchestra scores.

Now back to our scintillating discussion about capons. Errr.... :)

[tkdboyd]

I'll repeat what has already been stated, wouldn't want to change strings without a capo around!

Having Gillian Welch in a discussion about the use of a capo, David Rawlings is a monster user of one on his guitar. During the BBC sessions he pulls out capo for a solo, then takes it back off, and starts playing again. It is the second solo, his first is at 1:11 and then at 1:50 he does the capo work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7knB3VtAqY

[MikeEdgerton]

John McGann won Winfield playing a set of tunes using a capo. If you want to use one just use it. No matter what the capo police are saying it's simply a tool and if it floats your boat have at it. I have one. It confuses the crap out of me to use it but it's there.

I use one all the time on the guitar and the banjo.

[mandolirius]

This one'll go on forever. Suggest you do a search on "capo" and read one of the multi-page threads. Definitely many opinions on the subject!

However, here's mine.

1. A capo is a tool that can be useful at times, especially if you want an "open string" effect in a key that makes that difficult.

2. A capo is not a substitute for learning how to play in those keys, however; it shouldn't be a "crutch."

3. Due to its shorter fingerboard, mandolin is less adaptable to the capo than longer-scale instruments such as guitar and banjo. There's not a lot of room for fretting if you cut three or four frets off the fingerboard by attaching a capo.

4. There seem to be more noticeable intonation problems with a capoed mandolin, also probably an artifact of the shorter scale length.

5. Larger mandolin-family instruments, such as mandola and octave mandolin, are often capoed, with little discussion.

6. There's a fair amount of peer pressure not to use a capo (check those other threads). Bluegrass mandolinists almost never use one (you can find exceptions, but they're rare). One can draw sneers from the anti-capo crowd by using one.

I have used a capo when I was playing in an "odd" key but wanted to sound like a first-position fiddle tune. And I felt no shame. Having said that, I doubt I capo my mandolins once a year -- but I use capos all the time on my mandolas, octave mandolins, and mandocelli.

Summing up my position: use a capo when you feel it necessary or preferable, don't rely on it as a substitute for learning the fingerboard -- and don't make a moral/ethical issue out of it. Just my 2¢.

Mine too. However, I get the feeling this thread was started for the purpose of making a moral/ethical issue, based on the wording of the OP. My "capo conspiracy" theory.

[Charles E.]

I don't use one on my mandolin (Bill did'nt) but I do use one on my fiddle. ;)

[bratsche]

Ever hear of a piccolo mandolin? CGDA a fourth above a regular mandolin. Lots of them in the bowl-back days. Gibson made them at one time and Weber makes them now.


Not really. They are pretty rare even in the bowlback days. I have only seen maybe 6 or 7 total. Leland flatbacks were sold by Lyon & Healy -- I have one of those plus one no-name bowlback. I have seen a few pics of Italian instruments even one Embergher. I have never seen any parts for the piccolo mandolin written in mandolin orchestra scores.


Yep, I'd heard of 'em (sounds like it'd be a nightmare to play!); didn't think they were all too common, for obvious reasons.

(Nothing against capos in principle, my aversion is only to cramped fingers!)

bratsche

[Bob Bronow]

I haven't replied to any of the other "capo" threads so I guess I get to respond to this one!

I've never needed a capo at a jam. However, I play a monthly gig with a singer/guitarist who uses one on most songs. He usually doesn't settle on a key until right before he starts the song. In that situation, I use a capo. :grin:

[Willie Poole]

I learned to play Pick county Breakdown" in the key of A and for some reason the band leader of the first band I ever played in always wanted it played in B so I capoed up on the second fret and he jumped all over me for using a capo on the mandolin and I just looked at him and said, "If you play the guitar in B without your capo I will take mine off also....From then on we played P.C.B. in A...I have never used one since then and don`t even have one in my case...I am a musicologist so I don`t need one...

Use one if you like, doesn`t matter to me...

Willie

[Paul Kotapish]

Capos come in handy when the singer wants the song in Ab and you have a really nice arrangement in G that incorporates simultaneous open G- and D-string drones and cross picking up at 10th (or 11th, in Ab) fret. Kind of impossible to pull that off without a "cheater."

[OldSausage]

I am a musicologist so I don`t need one

I'm definitely going to be using that line.

[bigskygirl]

I thought it was against the law....

[Ben Cooper]

Guilty, I use one for one song. Thats it.

[Tom Coletti]

There are times when I like to challenge my left pinky and play Whiskey Before Breakfast in Eb without a capo; on other occasions, I just feel like taking advantage of D positions and capo the first to get the sound that I want.

A capo can be a crutch or a tool. I occasionally use one for casual settings in lieu of closed positions, yet I don't feel the need to apologize or anything.
--Tom

[auteq]

I often wonder if there is an alternative universe where Lester Flatt used bar chords instead of a capo and playing in C and G, but Monroe used open chords .....would guitar players be having the same conversation on alt universe GuitarBar.com forum? (Alt universe bluegrass boys would have goatees of course)

[Pasha Alden]

Hi all
I do not play with a capo as a rule. However, I must say I tried using it as in the fifth fret and got the piccolo sound. It is actually beautiful. Yes, there is some cramping of the fingers, so I think the piccolo effect will be used in a few songs I will record, but I think to have an impact on the music it should not be overdone. However, my main idea is to learn to play without a capo, using it only for piccolo sound.
So here's to no capo conspiracy, thought police, capo police, whichever we will name them. <big smile>

[Mike Bunting]

There are times when I like to challenge my left pinky and play Whiskey Before Breakfast in Eb
-Tom

That is really a good exercise.

[Tom Coletti]

That is really a good exercise.

It started as a means of learning tunes by ear from tenor banjoists, as a lot of them capo the first for some reason, probably to shorten the scale length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU4vSuCenL0

Eb has made me really appreciate the 13" scale of my old flatback.

[Mike Bunting]

hi all
i do not play with a capo as a rule. However, i must say i tried using it as in the fifth fret and got the piccolo sound. It is actually beautiful. Yes, there is some cramping of the fingers, so i think the piccolo effect will be used in a few songs i will record, but i think to have an impact on the music it should not be overdone. However, my main idea is to learn to play without a capo, using it only for piccolo sound.
So here's to no capo conspiracy, thought police, capo police, whichever we will name them. <big smile>

haha!

[GKWilson]

:)):popcorn::mad:
I'm the one in the middle.

[ralph johansson]

haha!

110092

[Bertram Henze]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fUzorZk31Ss/TLJj5mRcSOI/AAAAAAAAH7Q/V9YR8gKLQvY/s1600/il-capo-fabricio.jpg

[Pasha Alden]

At Mike and Ralph - I at least got haha - it may be at the idea that I experiment with a capo or do not play with one or do not believe in the conspiracy surrounding it. Though I believe in playing the difficult stuff without capo.

<smile ha ha>>

[Markus]

A capo can be a crutch or a tool.

If the music produced fits the context it's in, I don't see what reason there would be on getting hung up on how you produced it.

If it doesn't fit or sound good, then that's the issue to aim at. If the capo is required/not to achieve the goal, that would seem to be the relevant point - but it's all about the resulting sound not the means you got there.

[Cheryl Watson]

Yes, and I'll add Ab, Eb, C#, F#, and sometimes Bb are problematic for a lot of mandolin players, including myself, and when someone wants to sing in those keys, which is rare, I use a capo. I try to avoid EVER singing in any of those keys. Closed chords are easy in any key, but trying to get that open string, droning sound or soloing is a completely different ballgame.


Capos come in handy when the singer wants the song in Ab and you have a really nice arrangement in G that incorporates simultaneous open G- and D-string drones and cross picking up at 10th (or 11th, in Ab) fret. Kind of impossible to pull that off without a "cheater."

[mandopete]

I learned to play Pick county Breakdown" in the key of A and for some reason the band leader of the first band I ever played in always wanted it played in B so I capoed up on the second fret...

Right on!

[jaycat]

Guilty, I use one for one song. Thats it.

Is it "Ring Dang Doo?"

[Larry Simonson]

If you like playing along with recorded material especially radio where the key changes somewhat randomly you first have to find the key, then calculate a capo position, and then attach the capo (hopefully you will not feel a need to retune). By then the song may be over and a new one started, of course in a different key.

[Tom Haywood]

Dagnabbit, I thought a gentleman always carried a capo in his pocket. I use them for a variety of reasons. The latest is that I have a friend who is a great guitar player and who is really bashing folks who use a capo and sing in "non-standard" keys. He don't need no stinkin' capo. He said so. So, I've started singing in Gb and calling on him to take the first break. He asked the other night if I had a spare capo. I didn't.

[Pasha Alden]

Agreed: a capo is definitely needed by some who find keys like F andE and others difficult. As I said, if for effect also I am happy to use the capo.


No capo police needed. <big smile>

[Petrus]

This one'll go on forever. Suggest you do a search on "capo" and read one of the multi-page threads. Definitely many opinions on the subject! However, here's mine.

Those points could be put in a FAQ about the capo question.

[j. condino]

I only use a capo when I'm playing upright bass.....;)

j.
www.condino.com

[Nick Triesch]

The greatest guitar players in the world use or have used a capo. The snoot factor is alive and well on this site. You may as well put down folks who drag their pinky and use Fender medium picks also while we are here.

[Ben Cooper]

Is it "Ring Dang Doo?"

No, actually I use it for Wagon Wheel. Some people may think that is "cheating" or look down on it, but it just makes it easier and more fun to play when I am playing with friends who are on guitar.

[Mike Bunting]

I use a throat capo when I want to sing up there in B.

[OldSausage]

The greatest guitar players in the world use or have used a capo. The snoot factor is alive and well on this site. You may as well put down folks who drag their pinky and use Fender medium picks also while we are here.

Well, let's not get confused. We capo police say yes to capos on guitars, just no to capos on mandolins. Oh, and on ukuleles.

[Nick Triesch]

So let me get this straight....It's OK for the greatest classical guitar players in the world to use a capo but it is not OK for mandolin players who play hillbilly music by ear in third world states?

[OldSausage]

Yes, that seems fair to me.

[bigskygirl]

Well, let's not get confused. We capo police say yes to capos on guitars, just no to capos on mandolins. Oh, and on ukuleles.

What......no capo on ukulele either....:disbelief:

You mean I'm doing everything.....wrong....:crying:

[notneils]

The only time I use a capo on my mandolin is when I'm changing strings! I just can't seem to keep control of the string when it's hooked on the tailpiece while I'm adding slack and threading the string through the tuner peg. The capo gives me a temporary "extra hand."


Wow, so simple. I'm buying one tomorrow, i can't believe i never thought of that!

[OldSausage]

What......no capo on ukulele either....:disbelief:

You mean I'm doing everything.....wrong....:crying:

Don't worry, we don't have powers of arrest. Although I did make myself a badge.

[David Lewis]

I'm definitely going to be using that line.

Be careful using it. I said it to a policeman when he asked for my drivers' licence. It did not end well.

[Tobin]

So let me get this straight....It's OK for the greatest classical guitar players in the world to use a capo but it is not OK for mandolin players who play hillbilly music by ear in third world states?

The mandolin is not a guitar. Guitar players need capos because they have more strings than fingers, and a longer scale that makes it impossible to cover all strings in all keys. Mandolin players can play a lot more closed position chords because we have the same number of strings as fingers, and a short scale, making a capo unnecessary, and only a crutch or convenience.

This is why a capo is commonly accepted for guitar players, but frowned upon by some mandolin players. Since it is not a necessity, it is seen as a mark of lesser ability by some, but that isn't the case for longer scale instruments or ones with more strings.

[Nick Triesch]

My point is it should not be frowned on by anybody. I was at a bluegrass jam a while back and I had my capo on my mandolin. A guy in a cowboy hat came over to me and said "Git dat dang thang off dat mando!" I knew right then and there I will always have my capo with me.

[Mike Bunting]

Did he really speak like that?

[Petrus]

I guess I won't mention my occasional use of a bow with my electric mandolin ... or would that be for another thread? :grin:

[bratsche]

I use a throat capo when I want to sing up there in B.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mjWZhLWlwo

bratsche

[Tom Coletti]

Jesus H. Gilchrist...

[Astro]

There was a young lad sentenced to the Kentucky state pen.
He was caught using a capo on his mandolin.
He served all his time, and paid a big fine,
But I doubt he'll ever play music in Kentucky again.

And..

Because he was caught within 100 feet of a jam, he had to do extra time.
He is out on parole now but he has to live in a special neighborhood away from any known musicians.
Its tough for him to get a gig because he is now a registered scale offender.

Sad story, but true.


Because of the tiny spaces we have to work with, I think its a little difficult to use a capo on mandolin. I have a nice one by Page and used it only a little bit when I first started playing. Over the months, I finally got to where I found it easier to use 3 finger chords up the neck than 2 finger chords under the capo up the neck.

So, because I am terminally lazy, I say do what is easiest. At first that may mean capo. You will naturally migrate toward no capo over time.

[Bertram Henze]

...He is out on parole now but he has to live in a special neighborhood away from any known musicians.
Its tough for him to get a gig because he is now a registered scale offender.

Plus, he has to wear a special set of freedom capos.

http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/ebay/images/2011/270705381617.jpg

[Wolfboy]

...making a capo unnecessary, and only a crutch or convenience.

This is why a capo is commonly accepted for guitar players, but frowned upon by some mandolin players. Since it is not a necessity, it is seen as a mark of lesser ability by some

Indeed, and whoever "some" mandolin players are, they're welcome to "frown upon" the "lesser ability" of the aforementioned Mssrs. Skaggs, Scott, Bush and McGann, not to mention Jimmy Gaudreau, Andy Irvine, Russ Barenberg, Ashley Broder and Amy White, to name just a few great mandolin players right off the top of my head that I've personally seen unapologetically using capos on mandolins for legitimate musical/sonic purposes. (And FWIW you can add my name to that list too, although I only came in third at Winfield so I might not count...) :)

I mean...good God almighty, are we still having this argument?

Refer to Allen's (as usual) excellent post for everything I would have to say about it.

[CeeCee_C]

I have no moral or ethical stance on this issue, nor a vested interest in any particular answer. It was a question, not a challenge.

[AlanN]

I mean...good God almighty, are we still having this argument?

This is the Mandolin Cafe, where all old things are new again...

[catmandu2]

I mean...good God almighty, are we still having this argument?



It's only 2013...still relatively early in the evolutionary process

[OldSausage]

I have no moral or ethical stance on this issue, nor a vested interest in any particular answer. It was a question, not a challenge.

Well the reality is that it's a highly technical question, and it is of course up to the player to decide. But if you are using a capo and you know exactly why, which is the typical situation for an experienced player, then you don't need to ask. But if you are using a capo and you don't know why (or fear your answer may be a touch lame), then you ought to try playing without it and see what happens.

In the thread above people have given examples of keys where they use a capo when they want that open string droney ringing sound - that seems perfectly valid to me. But it's also important not to overlook the many possibilities that not using a capo opens in those keys, because you can learn a lot from it, and it can lead you to play more creatively.

The key of Bb is a great example. It seems like an awkward one if you view it in terms of the couple of fixed positions we all tend to use most. If you think you need to keep your index finger clamped at the first fret on the A and E string, unless your mando is set up very well, that can be painful. But if you start to see the notes of that key broken out of their traditional patterns, there are all sorts of other available positions, different note choices, licks and embellishments that can make Bb a fun and rewarding key to play in. Start viewing it as playing in G minor, or as a G blues scale, and maybe you already know a lot more about Bb than you think you do. But whether that's the sound you want depends on your personal style and the genre that you're playing in.

[Tobin]

Indeed, and whoever "some" mandolin players are, they're welcome to "frown upon" the "lesser ability" of the aforementioned Mssrs. Skaggs, Scott, Bush and McGann, not to mention Jimmy Gaudreau, Andy Irvine, Russ Barenberg, Ashley Broder and Amy White, to name just a few great mandolin players right off the top of my head that I've personally seen unapologetically using capos on mandolins for legitimate musical/sonic purposes. (And FWIW you can add my name to that list too, although I only came in third at Winfield so I might not count...) :)

I mean...good God almighty, are we still having this argument?

Refer to Allen's (as usual) excellent post for everything I would have to say about it.
To be fair, I was only replying to a previous post challenging why it was commonly accepted for classical guitarists but not for mandolin players. I wasn't taking a position either way; just explaining why there is no controversy for one instrument while there is for another instrument. I was not making it an "argument" or trying to denigrate or promote either side. It's obvious that some very talented players use capos while other very talented players eschew the use of capos as being an unnecessary crutch. Chris Thile is one who I recall making comments along the lines of, "we are mandolin players; we don't use capos". So this controversy obviously exists amongst the highest levels of professional mandolin players.

Why are we still having this conversation? Because it's still a difference of opinion amongst mandolin players. Until it is resolved and everyone thinks the same way (read: never), it will continue to be brought up and discussed. That's the way the world works, I'm afraid. Getting angry and frustrated when new people ask the question isn't going to do anything but cause more anger and frustration. It's best to just admit it for what it is (which is what I was attempting to do) so everyone understands the issue, and move past it until it comes up again.

[Cecily_Mandoliner]

There are times when I like to challenge my left pinky and play Whiskey Before Breakfast in Eb without a capo; on other occasions, I just feel like taking advantage of D positions and capo the first to get the sound that I want.

A capo can be a crutch or a tool. I occasionally use one for casual settings in lieu of closed positions, yet I don't feel the need to apologize or anything.
--Tom

A good challenge! I'm going to try both!

[Bertram Henze]

This is the Mandolin Cafe, where all old things are new again...

They call it "tradition".

Yes, there are those who are afraid of being alone with what they do because it might be wrong - but tell them they are and get told they aren't.

There are those who never were alone and don't know how it feels - but tell them you are not one of them and they ask "who's them?"

The truth is, there is always a way of development from where you are to where you want to go; we start in different places and therefore must go different paths, even if our destination was the same, which it isn't. Therefore, any shared navigation finds those to whom it won't apply. But still we like to tell each other about the path we happen to be on, because it's comforting to hear how many are on their ways.
The only ones who are genuinely wrong are those who don't go at all.

[OldSausage]

What was the middle one again?

[ralph johansson]

Well, this is typical. The OP asks why mandolin players in general do not use a capo, and a lot of people respond by defending their use of one! One poster refers to the use of capos in classical guitar (which I have never witnessed, at least not
in solo recitals); I would assume that the OP really wants to know what *separates*
the mandolin from the guitar, banjo, and dobro.

And then, of course, we get "why is it OK to use a capo on a guitar and not on a mandolin". Indeed. Why do mandolin players as a rule not use a slide, when it's "OK" to use one on the dobro, and why don't they use a bow when it's "OK" to use one on the violin? It's not about "OK".

The answer to the OP's question is that the use of of a capo on guitar, banjo, or dobro, is idiomatic to their function *in certain genres*. The mandolin is a different instrument, with a different role.

The dobro and banjo are usually tuned to an open triad, and there are special effects involving open strings, such as sliding on one string to the pitch of a neighbor string, or fretting high and using open strings as drones, etc. These effects translate to higher keys
through the use of a capo.

The guitar is basically tuned to an em7 chord. Three of the strings form a G major triad. If played in G major in open position, in a song with very few chords, you get some sympathetic overtones that may be pleasing to the ear. A capo transposes that effect to higher keys.
Also, *in certain genres*, guitar players want the ring and splash of full six-string chords. With only four fingers you need either open strings or barres to get them. The full cowboy G chord is all but impossible to transpose up the neck without a capo.

But, note, "certain genres". E.g., in mainstream (i.e., swing, bop, and late-bop) jazz there is absolutely no role for a capo; jazzers want the controlled sound of closed 3-4 note chord forms, often rootless, in accompaniment. There is no place for a cowboy G chord. Joe Pass used to advise against the keys of D, A, and E, because of the open strings they offer!

By contrast, the mandolin is symmetrically tuned, and the high range, and lack of sustain,
make some special effects less effective. Mr. Kotapish has indicated the big exception, cross-picking, where often one course is left open and the others are fretted up the neck.There are no cowboy chords, and the strings don't outnumber the fretting fingers.

Also, in genres such as Bluegrass, Jazz, New Acoustic, players don't want ring or splash. Much like jazz guitarists, they favor the controlled sound, the snap, and mobility of closed chord forms.
And there really are no difficult or strange keys, although a few, such as F, and Bb, are especially versatile.
A mandolin player who *believes* that F is a difficult key simply hasn't tried it. 60 years ago I didn't know a single word of English. That language is much easier now that I know a bit of it …

Now, a number of players are cited in defense of capoing. The late John McGann
used one at Winfield; people are forgetting that he *also* advised against using a
capo as a substitute for exploring all or most major keys.
That's the didactic side of the issue, it's not about "whether", but "how". To support this advice
I could cite the example of Bluegrass lead guitarists
who seem to reduce just about everything to G or C, using a capo. I hear a lot of sameness there.
And don't get me started on Scruggs-style banjo!

The one example of Ricky Skaggs using a capo for piccolo effect is always cited; but he does not use a capo to play Rawhide (in the same key!), or Old Home Place (in Bb) or Ready to Go Home (in B) - and there are musical reasons for his choice in all four instances. The example with Darrell Scott and Tim O'Brien is in, or around , the key of F, and I believe he's after some effect involving a doublestop hammer-on on the bottom strings.


To me it's not a moral issue. I don't use a capo on the mandolin, because I don't,
and very rarely on the guitar. I'm happy that
I never used a capo for the first seven years on that instrument, before I discovered its idiomatic use in Old-Time
and Bluegrass. By this token I learned the fretboard in all keys, and got a good understanding of their relationships.

In my Bluegrass days, in the late 60's, I played mostly mandolin. I always felt at advantage compared to guitarists and banjo players, because I *didn't have to* capo. Each key had its own identity and possibilities, I achieved great variety and satisfaction exploring each.

[AlanN]

Good post, ralph, you hit all the major points (and didn't use a capo at all to do so.)

[OldSausage]

I don't use a capo on the mandolin, because I don't.

I think this is a key point, often overlooked.

[jaycat]

The greatest guitar players in the world use or have used a capo. . . .

True. Julian Bream loaned me his once.

[AlanN]

Did you give it back? :mandosmiley:

[MikeEdgerton]

A lot of typical things seem to show up in posts here.

[mandolirius]

I have no moral or ethical stance on this issue, nor a vested interest in any particular answer. It was a question, not a challenge.

<<I could come up with any number silly theories, but could it come down to "Capos? We don' need no steenking capos!"?>>

Count me as dubious.

[Wolfboy]

Excellent post from Ralph. Though I will just throw this in, with regards from the Capo Liberation Front :) ...


One poster refers to the use of capos in classical guitar (which I have never witnessed, at least not in solo recitals);

Andreas von Wangenheim (http://www.andreasvonwangenheim.com/frames-en/index-3.htm) uses one for his beautiful guitar transcription of Bach Cello Suite No. 4. (Originally composed for cello in E-flat, transposed to guitar in B-flat, fingered in A capoed at the first fret.) Another musician whose abilities and musicianship I'd be reluctant to call into question for his use of a capo...

[Stoker]

In front of Sam Bush. On an A. In Kentucky. If you're gonna break the rules, may as well break all of 'em.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l7lf-YJZms

[OldSausage]

A lot of typical things seem to show up in posts here.

You'll find that everywhere. It's typical.

[Wolfboy]

I wasn't taking a position either way; just explaining why there is no controversy for one instrument while there is for another instrument. I was not making it an "argument" or trying to denigrate or promote either side.

Well, I beg your pardon - that's not how this sounded:


Mandolin players can play a lot more closed position chords because we have the same number of strings as fingers, and a short scale, making a capo unnecessary, and only a crutch or convenience.

This is why a capo is commonly accepted for guitar players, but frowned upon by some mandolin players. Since it is not a necessity, it is seen as a mark of lesser ability by some, but that isn't the case for longer scale instruments or ones with more strings.

(Emphases mine.)


Getting angry and frustrated when new people ask the question isn't going to do anything but cause more anger and frustration.

I don't remember becoming angry or frustrated at the OP's question, but I will admit to some impatience at absolute judgements like calling a capo "only a crutch or convenience," when such a judgement is so clearly refuted by the practice of musicians I admire and respect.

I don't particularly care if certain people see capo use as "a mark of lesser ability" - though I don't happen to agree, obviously - but I think we need to be careful with blanket statements condemning the use of capos in all situations. A capo isn't a "necessity," perhaps - neither is cross-tuning, for that matter, but they can both give you cool sounds you can't get in standard tuning. The point is, a capo can be a crutch, yes, and shouldn't be a substitute for learning how to play in all keys, but it can also be a creative tool, opening up sonic possibilities otherwise unavailable. An absolute "Capos are not necessary and therefore anyone who uses one is a lesser player" position is too dogmatic for my liking, that's all.

[MikeEdgerton]

You'll find that everywhere. It's typical.

Can I quote you on that?

[Tobin]

Well, I beg your pardon - that's not how this sounded:
I think you read into it what you wanted to read, and not necessarily what I stated. Especially since you went on to agree with me that a capo is indeed not necessary, and it "can be a crutch". Furthermore, even when used as a "creative tool" as you describe, do you disagree that it is being used as a convenience?

I'm just not seeing where we disagree on anything, which confuses me as to why you're being so adamantly defensive.

[Tom Coletti]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/564/t0ZfPEZ_1_.gif

Lowering the action seems like a convenience, but I don't see a whole lot of high-action vs low-action fights out there. Wearing a strap while standing up is also a convenience, but I don't see non-strap users dismissing anyone who uses a strap. Sure, I can kinda-sorta play Whiskey Before Breakfast in Eb in my off-time, but if I had to choose between capo and no capo for a recording or a gig, I'd probably capo the first to play a fiddle tune in that key until I get better, just to be safe.

Is it a convenience? Of course; that's kinda the point.

--Tom

[JeffD]

Yep, I'd heard of 'em (sounds like it'd be a nightmare to play!); didn't think they were all too common, for obvious reasons.

(Nothing against capos in principle, my aversion is only to cramped fingers!)

bratsche

I have the Weber Gallatin Sopranino, and I am loving it. Its an octave above the mandola, two octaves above the mandocello. CGDA.

Separate discussion, but I really (really, really) love mine.


Its all in what you use the capo for. You can use it to sound a certain way, to give you familiar open strings in the key of Db, or to challenge yourself to play better (try playing a tune in your regular key, with the capo on the first fret).

Or not.

[JeffD]

Its like ketchup. Remember that television show "All in the Family"


Gloria: "Oh, Daddy. You'd put ketchup on a doughnut. "

Archie Bunker: "If it needed it. "

[jaycat]

Did you give it back? :mandosmiley:

No. I broke it in half, exclaiming "that ain't no part of nuthin."




. . . I don't particularly care if certain people see capo use as "a mark of lesser ability" . . .

My lesser ability speaks for itself.

[Tom Wright]

I really wanted to use a capo for the mandolin part in the opera Otello, which is nicer in B flat than in its real key of B, but it got in the way. I tuned up a half step instead. Use one if you can, I could not.

[Tom Haywood]

My latest reason for using a capo is working. I'm using it to train the naysayers to understand that there is a time and a place for it. I did a cowboy/country Christmas song last night - in Db. The guitarist I mentioned in my previous post borrowed a capo without hesitation and smiled when I called on him for the first break. Oh, you better believe I capoed to the first fret and played in C form.

[mandopete]

I used a capo once, but I did not inhale.

[M.Marmot]

You'd have to lean at one severe angle to use a capo as a crutch - they're tiny - might be possible if you were a Leprechaun or some other such.

Speaking of 'Darby O' Gill and the Little People' - i must have watched that movie a dozen times or more. I can probably quote from it without trying but, you know what?
What?
I still find it enjoyable, immensely predictable but enjoyable all thesame.
From time to time i even see something new.

'Now there's some that put capos on their mandolins, it might cause lots of fuss, but tis surely no sin'
'And there's those who do think capos are'nt good for much, but for a lop-sided sprite, they're a handy auld crutch'

[mandolirius]

I think you read into it what you wanted to read, and not necessarily what I stated. Especially since you went on to agree with me that a capo is indeed not necessary, and it "can be a crutch". Furthermore, even when used as a "creative tool" as you describe, do you disagree that it is being used as a convenience?

I'm just not seeing where we disagree on anything, which confuses me as to why you're being so adamantly defensive.

I think he was just pointing out that the wording of your post made it sound like you were being critical, even though you say it wasn't your intent. Rather than posit that someone is reading something into a post, it might be better to take a look at how you expressed your point and whether you chose wording that accurately made the point or not.

Not to pick on your post per se, but in general I see a lot of that kind of thing around here. People write something that sounds for all the world like they are taking a particular position then claim they were doing nothing of the sort when it reads that way to someone else. We are responsible for how we express ourselves and it's really not a big deal to say something along the lines of "I can see how it read that way to you but that's not what I meant..." Most people are not skilled writers and the notion that they've expressed an idea unclearly is not far-fetched. It happens to all of us from time to time.

[mandolirius]

And while we're on the topic, let me express myself clearly to anyone who holds the opinion that using a capo on a mandolin is NEVER the right thing to do. I want to ask you a question. I was in a band that used to do a tune in the key of D. It was an oldtimey kind of thing and I worked up an nice sounding part with a lot of crosspicking and use of the open D & A strings. After a couple of times doing it the singer really felt it should be higher, so we moved it to Eb. None of my parts would work and there was no way (as in physically impossible) to do the same thing in Eb. So I could abandon the nice, open oldtimey-sounding stuff (I CAN play in all 12 keys) or use a capo. I only have one mandolin so re-tuning a second one was not an option. Tell me why I shouldn't have used a capo in that situation. If you truly believe I commted some kind of mando-crime I want to hear your reasoning.

[CeeCee_C]

Mandolirius:
I don't consider it a crime under any circumstances. And the example you've offered makes perfect sense.

WOW! This got *REALLY* unpleasant.

My thanks to those of you.who offered well-considered replies.

My apologies to one and all for running the lawnmower over the yellowjackets nest.

[mcgroup53]

John McGann used a capo the year he won the mandolin contest at Winfield. I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

[MikeEdgerton]

Yeah, I pointed that out. Apparently it isn't a defense for the poor little things. I happen to think it is but hey, this is a capo thread and they all end up being raucous. There is at least a twelve paragraph answer coming to this exchange.

[mandolirius]

My apologies to one and all for running the lawnmower over the yellowjackets nest.

That's what the eye-rolling was about. It's inevitable whenever this topic comes up.

[allenhopkins]

...The OP asks why mandolin players in general do not use a capo...I would assume that the OP really wants to know what *separates* the mandolin from the guitar, banjo, and Dobro….

No. No. CeeCee actually said, "I've repeatedly noted that mandolin players very rarely use a capo. I could come up with any number [of] silly theories, but could it come down to 'Capos? We don' need no steenking capos!'"?

So, people responded to the question as stated: do we in fact need "steenking capos," or not? If we use them, why do we do it? If we don't, why don't we?

I tried to state my perspective, in a non-combative manner, in Post #5. I knew that soon the fur would fly, and people would start sniping at others' musicianship. Other posters would cite the example of Mandolin Demigods and Demigodesses who at one point or another were detected using a capo -- not because they had to, but because in a certain musical situation it suited them.

I can't for the life of me understand why this subject calls forth so much rancor; why people have to be supercilious, or defensive, or belittling, or just plain damn unfriendly. A capo is a piece of musical equipment; some use it, some don't. Mandolin players use it infrequently, for a variety of reasons, but it's surely not unheard of. If there ever were a suitable subject for "live and let live," this would be one, IMHO.

I don't claim to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the roles and functions of the various instruments I play. I don't care to sit in judgment on others' musical skills or choices. I don't think less of a mandolinist who uses a capo, nor more of one who doesn't. Can't we all just get along here?

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." -- Aleister Crowley

[fatt-dad]

Allen is commended for clear writing. I hate using the capo only for real-estate reasons. I do use one on one "fiddle-like" tune in "E," 'cause I want the function of the nut.

Glad I have a capo only then. My duet buddy doesn't care. He's all about alternate tunings and partial (multiple) capos on his guitar though.

Don't quite understand the arguments.

f-d

[dang]

WOW! This got *REALLY* unpleasant.

My thanks to those of you.who offered well-considered replies.

My apologies to one and all for running the lawnmower over the yellowjackets nest.

I wouldn't take anyone here too seriously, but yeah... Having a thread you start blow up into something else and maybe even eventually getting locked can be a bit unnerving. It's not you, it's the capo's fault.

[ralph johansson]

John McGann used a capo the year he won the mandolin contest at Winfield. I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

No, it does not. The point is how and why. In an old thread someone once asked about the proper place to capo in the key of F,
and John answered:

"10th fret, play open G position"

then added:

"I'm being a wise guy here.

F is easy. Capos should be used for very specific musical reasons, for example the tone quality of the open strings ringing, not because it makes life easier. Life is hard. Let's live it anyway
Sooner or later you need to play 'hard stuff'.

- try 530x for an F chord. That's as easy as it gets, pretty much.

If it's bluegrass, try 10 7 8 x.
also try
233x
578x

See? Not so hard!"

Really, the only way to justify your use of a capo (as if really needed!) is by reference to your own musical results.


Incidentally I'm surprised taht no one has mentioned Andy Leftwich's playing on a song with singer-songwriter Keith Sewell
(you can still find it on YouTube, I believe).

He capos at the 1st fret in the key of Bb. I'm not sure why, probably some open string effect, but he certainly doesn't make it easy on himself,
because he's all over the fretboard. I share Mr. Hopkins' experience that capoing can be confusing, which is one reason I avoid it even on the guitar. You'd have to think one key in the capoed position, another up the neck. But I don't really play Bluegrass.

[Timbofood]

Good grief, can't we all see that the capo is no more or less a tool than a hammer, if you want it, it's what you want. You need/want it for a specific job use it, no skin off my knuckles. I may start using one for the heck of it, almost forty years and never have but times change.

[Bertram Henze]

can't we all see that the capo is no more or less a tool than a hammer

I may quote Dumbledore at this point: Harry... It's not how you are alike. It's how you are not...

It's not about the hammer, it's about who wields it and who calls what a nail. One item, many perceptions. How can there by cooking shows if the oven is just a tool?

[bigskygirl]

Cape-o, cop-o....so last week.......where is the thread on string discussions....:popcorn:

[FLATROCK HILL]

John McGann used a capo the year he won the mandolin contest at Winfield. I think that pretty much speaks for itself.


Yeah, I pointed that out. Apparently it isn't a defense for the poor little things. I happen to think it is but hey, this is a capo thread and they all end up being raucous. There is at least a twelve paragraph answer coming to this exchange.


No, it does not. The point is how and why. In an old thread someone once asked about the proper place to capo in the key of F,
and John answered:

"10th fret, play open G position"

then added:

"I'm being a wise guy here.

F is easy. Capos should be used for very specific musical reasons, for example the tone quality of the open strings ringing, not because it makes life easier. Life is hard. Let's live it anyway
Sooner or later you need to play 'hard stuff'.

- try 530x for an F chord. That's as easy as it gets, pretty much.

If it's bluegrass, try 10 7 8 x.
also try
233x
578x

See? Not so hard!"

Really, the only way to justify your use of a capo (as if really needed!) is by reference to your own musical results.


Incidentally I'm surprised taht no one has mentioned Andy Leftwich's playing on a song with singer-songwriter Keith Sewell
(you can still find it on YouTube, I believe).

He capos at the 1st fret in the key of Bb. I'm not sure why, probably some open string effect, but he certainly doesn't make it easy on himself,
because he's all over the fretboard. I share Mr. Hopkins' experience that capoing can be confusing, which is one reason I avoid it even on the guitar. You'd have to think one key in the capoed position, another up the neck. But I don't really play Bluegrass.

And there you have it! Maybe not quite 12, but close enough.

[Tobin]

And while we're on the topic, let me express myself clearly to anyone who holds the opinion that using a capo on a mandolin is NEVER the right thing to do. I want to ask you a question. I was in a band that used to do a tune in the key of D. It was an oldtimey kind of thing and I worked up an nice sounding part with a lot of crosspicking and use of the open D & A strings. After a couple of times doing it the singer really felt it should be higher, so we moved it to Eb. None of my parts would work and there was no way (as in physically impossible) to do the same thing in Eb. So I could abandon the nice, open oldtimey-sounding stuff (I CAN play in all 12 keys) or use a capo. I only have one mandolin so re-tuning a second one was not an option. Tell me why I shouldn't have used a capo in that situation. If you truly believe I commted some kind of mando-crime I want to hear your reasoning.
Not sure if you were still responding to me in this post, but personally, I think that's an absolutely valid use for a capo. It's still a convenience, to be sure (rather than the inconvenient alternative of tuning up a half-step), but in the same situation I'd likely do the same thing.

[MikeEdgerton]

We could let the professor speak for himself.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?81345-Are-capos-cheating&p=1011146&viewfull=1#post1011146

[Steve L]

Why any sensible person would care what someone else thinks about how they achieve a desireable result is beyond me.

[bratsche]

Cape-o, cop-o....so last week.......where is the thread on string discussions....:popcorn:

There's also a new "Blue Chip WOW!" thread that needs some luvvv.... :)) :disbelief:

bratsche

[OldSausage]

Why any sensible person would care what someone else thinks about how they achieve a desireable result is beyond me.

That's yer problem, right thar.

[Mike Bunting]

Hurray John McGann for the Jerry Byrd quote,
"It looks great on stage moving the capo once a second to play "Giant Steps", though"

[Toni Schula]

I simply belief that a capo is forbidden by law unless you play an instrument with more strings to fret than the number of fingers on your fretting hand (minus the thumb).

At least here in Europe, where everything is regulated by the European Commission.

[bratsche]

And I believe in complete capo-anarchy, since here in the USA, we have way far too many stoopid laws and regulations already. :crying:

bratsche

[JeffD]

Why any sensible person would care what someone else thinks about how they achieve a desireable result is beyond me.

Further, why any sensible person cares overmuch what some genetically anomalous prodigy does on stage is beyond me.


My main problem with a capo is that it does not move the fret markers up. So I can't fully take advantage of the new position.

[bratsche]

My main problem with a capo is that it does not move the fret markers up. So I can't fully take advantage of the new position.


I can see it now: a new invention. Instruments made with built-in capos, and LEDs installed between almost every fret, and where only the appropriate ones light up for the capo's current position.

bratsche

[Vincent Capostagno]

I have a Capo. I have trouble figuring out how to use it. I find it a lot easier to transpose scales on the fretboard, so for me, transposition would be "cheating' and using a capo would be a step up in expertise. Am I a lost cause?

[OldSausage]

I've got a great idea, in fact it's literally a no-brainer. Instead of using a capo, just try moving your fingers up the fretboard. I can't wait to get home so I can try this.

[mandolirius]

Not sure if you were still responding to me in this post, but personally, I think that's an absolutely valid use for a capo. It's still a convenience, to be sure (rather than the inconvenient alternative of tuning up a half-step), but in the same situation I'd likely do the same thing.

No Tobin, I wasn't addressing you specifcally. I don't recall you as being a member of the capo police. In fact, they don't seem to be much in evidence in this thread so maybe the point has finally gotten through. Most people agree that using a capo because you haven't learned to play in other keys is not a good idea but that's mostly a straw man argument. I've not seen many people do that. As for those I have seen do it well, to quote John McGann quoting Jerry Byrd, it really doesn't matter in their particular case.

[JeffD]

The only invalid use of a capo is to strum with it. Oh wait, .... :)

[Nick Triesch]

The truth is that most people who play guitar and mandolin never intend to learn in a bunch of other keys in the first place. Next time you go to a bluegrass jam in the parking lot take a look at all the different keys folks are playing in. Maybe 3? Average bluegrass folks don't spend a ton of time learning in different keys. Most just want to play and have fun. I think much of the snoot factor here forgets that. It is interesting that other clubs have the same kind of people. I went to a sports car parts swap meet and I came up to a guy sitting at his table. I asked him if he had the gaskets that go between my duel carbs on my engine because they are leaking a bit. He replied...."Yours leak?"

[bratsche]

"snoot factor"?

110255

bratsche

[catmandu2]

Notice that, with the snoot, you play "real" tunes (as would a real player...)

Doubtless, snoot flute players frown upon use of capos, too

[Tom Haywood]

I have lost my nose capo. Probably a good thing.

[catmandu2]

Well, the good news is--I'm sure your stature in the nose flute community is enhanced

However...have you checked your sinuses lately? :(

[bratsche]

You can pick your nose and your friends (with or without a capo), but not your friend's nose. However, you can help both of your sinuses:

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0161/5500/files/Snoot_Purchase_Buy_CTA-3.jpg?836

bratsche

[Nick Triesch]

Coated strings, designer picks with a little pick case, don't touch that pinky , capo?, got to sing really high like your tail is caught under a rocking chair and so on. And you better be playing a Martin D28! Some of you folks just do not get it. I was at a bluegrass club meeting a while back and these people came up to me and told me I was holding my wrist wrong when I was playing. But not one of them could play Whiskey before Breakfast up tempo.

[Mike Bunting]

Brilliant responses to the snoot man!
Of course it should be remembered that snoot and anti-snoot are the flip sides of the same coin.

[David Lewis]

When I was young and stupid (maybe I just should put young - I'm still stupid), I thought capos were cheat sticks. I was a guitarist then (still am, but then I was exclusively guitar). Then I put one on my guitar. The tone changed. Not better, not worse, just different. This gave you different musical choices....

Same on my mandolin. Yes, I can play in Gb, or Db or F# or C# but it changes my choices.

Now, as a guitar teacher, I forbid capos: till the student is ready. Then they can be shown why they are great.

[mandolirius]

Coated strings, designer picks with a little pick case, don't touch that pinky , capo?, got to sing really high like your tail is caught under a rocking chair and so on. And you better be playing a Martin D28! Some of you folks just do not get it. I was at a bluegrass club meeting a while back and these people came up to me and told me I was holding my wrist wrong when I was playing. But not one of them could play Whiskey before Breakfast up tempo.

What the heck is a "designer pick"?

[OldSausage]

What the heck is a "designer pick"?

A poor second to the designer shovel, that's for sure.

[Mike Bunting]

One of the things one must remember at a jam is not how you hold your wrist or plant your pinkie, is not to hold your nose too high.

[allenhopkins]

Now we're just getting silly -- but that's infinitely preferable to getting nasty. Or snooty.

[Timbofood]

I loved playing those! Stupid, no silliest thing ever! Fun, funner, funnest supersillious gag instrument EVER!
The capo for that was not pleasant!
Allergy season was unpleasant though, messy, so to speak.

[Petrus]

Coated strings, designer picks with a little pick case, don't touch that pinky , capo?, got to sing really high like your tail is caught under a rocking chair and so on. And you better be playing a Martin D28! Some of you folks just do not get it. I was at a bluegrass club meeting a while back and these people came up to me and told me I was holding my wrist wrong when I was playing. But not one of them could play Whiskey before Breakfast up tempo.

Could be worse. Classical guitarists have to file & shape their fingernails just right, and keep them strong with clear varnish, for finger-picking.

[Petrus]

Hmm. It occurs to me that I could get a mandola and capo it anytime I wanted a mandolin sound, thus having the best of both worlds. Opinions on this?

[Larry Simonson]

A couple of questions.

1. Would those amongst us who are anti-capo accept the proposition that cross-pickers tend to stay in keys that use unfretted strings?

2. Would those amongst us who are anti-capo after hearing some mandolin player dazzling the crowd turn their nose up when it was discovered that the player was using a capo?

[Mike Bunting]

We're way past that now.

[GKWilson]

Many professional musicians use capo's to add fullness to the music.
Example. Musician A plays in open tuning. Musician B plays in capoed position adding color and fullness to the piece.
Do you think when Darrell Scott plays with Tim O'Brien and capos his mandolin he does so because he doesn't know
how to play in that key? Or possibly it creates a better vocal and instrumental harmony. HMMMM.

[GKWilson]

Oh Yeah.
I used to play nose flute in a jug band in the late 60's'
I would bring the house down.
Then one night I had a bad head cold and things got nasty.
I've never played since.:(
Gary

[Tom Coletti]

Could be worse. Classical guitarists have to file & shape their fingernails just right, and keep them strong with clear varnish, for finger-picking.

That depends on the kind of tone that they're going after. I have a couple of friends from a guitar ensemble that did that, and they had a bit of a crisper, clearer sound. I trimmed--or simply nibbled--my nails down so that they wouldn't make any contact with the strings. It was a more mellow tone.

--Tom

[Tom Coletti]

Hmm. It occurs to me that I could get a mandola and capo it anytime I wanted a mandolin sound, thus having the best of both worlds. Opinions on this?

Funny, just this morning I chose to plead the--I mean, capo the fifth on my mandolin for CGDA (soprano mandolin tuning) and messed around with it for a bit. Very different sound, though a bit harder to fit the fingers on it. Sometimes if I play a tune frequently, I'll try capoing different frets just to hear what it sounds like in different keys, though at other times I relearn the tune in other keys without capoing. (a fail-safe for when a guitarist forgets their own capo and asks to play Red Haired Boy in G.)

I have also found what may be a slight advantage to occasionally capoing up. Certain frets have been getting worn down at different rates than others, so by practicing with a capo every now and then, the higher frets wear down more evenly with lower ones.

--Tom

[Petrus]

I've also heard of them being used on instruments where a player is worried about excessive tension on the neck (esp. with 12 string guitars, but probably also with vintage instruments or if you're using heavy gauge strings.) Tune down a half-step and capo on the first fret; here the capo serves to take some tension off the neck.

[David Lewis]

I've also heard of them being used on instruments where a player is worried about excessive tension on the neck (esp. with 12 string guitars, but probably also with vintage instruments or if you're using heavy gauge strings.) Tune down a half-step and capo on the first fret; here the capo serves to take some tension off the neck.

Australian country music legend slim dusty used to do that.

[ralph johansson]

Hmm. It occurs to me that I could get a mandola and capo it anytime I wanted a mandolin sound, thus having the best of both worlds. Opinions on this?

You'd have the larger box and heavier string gauge of the mandola. And what about response up the neck? On my mandolin I tend to go at least up to the 12th fret on the lower courses; with this arrangement I would have to travel up to the 19th.

What really attracts me to the mandolin is its power in spite of the small box; its rapid response and penetrating sound. Even my first quality mandolin, a Levin Aristokrat, which didn't appear to be very loud, cut through nicely in a group situation.
Would I get that on a capoed mandola?

[ralph johansson]

At Mike and Ralph - I at least got haha - it may be at the idea that I experiment with a capo or do not play with one or do not believe in the conspiracy surrounding it. Though I believe in playing the difficult stuff without capo.

<smile ha ha>>


Tobias Strömberg, dobro player in G2, is actually a police officer. I had hoped to find a picture of him in uniform playing the dobro. There used to be one on the Internet, but it's gone.

[ralph johansson]

Excellent post from Ralph. Though I will just throw this in, with regards from the Capo Liberation Front :) ...



Andreas von Wangenheim (http://www.andreasvonwangenheim.com/frames-en/index-3.htm) uses one for his beautiful guitar transcription of Bach Cello Suite No. 4. (Originally composed for cello in E-flat, transposed to guitar in B-flat, fingered in A capoed at the first fret.) Another musician whose abilities and musicianship I'd be reluctant to call into question for his use of a capo...

Interesting. I thought that classical solo guitarists would want to have full access to the fretboard, at least the three octaves free of the body. I do know, of course, that much of the standard repertoire is in sharp keys, such as D, A, and E; in fact I noted this at a concert a few years ago, and in that context even the key of C seemed exotic!

[BlueMt.]

I use a capo on my guitar, banjo, cittern and mandolin. Just the other day, I was playing mandolin in GDGD and my son launched into an A tune; capo on and away we went. To each his own.

[Tom Haywood]

The nose capo did cause difficulties with fingering and picking the instrument, especially "up the neck". I'm not really against using one, but I can get the same sounds without it. I did find that it interferes with a truly professional performance.

[Michael Bridges]

Interesting. I was playing in a rock band thru the 70's. A "Toot for the Snoot" had a WHOLE 'nother meaning!
"snoot factor"?

110255

bratsche

[multidon]

Well I am very late to the party here and with good reason. I just read through all the post to make sure I wasnt repeating something that has already been said. A capo makes it much easier to check your neck relief. Just capo the first fret so that the nut is out of the equation. Then hold the string down at the bottom of your fret board. Your string is now a straight edge. Now use your free hand to measure neck relief at the seventh fret using feeler guages. To do this without a capo would require 3 hands. Or a true strsight edge which most people dont own. So between this and string changes more than enough reason to own one.

As far as actually playing with one Im staying out of it! I do own one for the above reason though.

[Nick Triesch]

I used to use a capo on my pre adjustable truss rod D28 because it made the guitar playable without the typical horrible action on those warped old Martins. Also, it was/is very common to use a capo on the 2nd fret on all Martin 12 string guitars. In fact, it was recommended to do so. Also, a famous shop in Long Beach Ca said to down tune the Martin 12 strings to avoid damage to the guitar. See? snots of great uses for the capo!

[Nick Triesch]

Sorry, lots of great uses for the capo.

[Michael Bridges]

Yeah, but snots of great uses for the nose capo!

[Ben Cooper]

Yeah, but snots of great uses for the nose capo!

Awesome!! LMAO!! :))

[bratsche]

On Pete Jenner's thread, at the top of page 7 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?100212-My-mandolin-trip-to-the-USA-and-other-bits-%28of-the-globe%29/page7), I'll be danged if there ain't a video of some gals doing some fine nose trumpeting. LOL

bratsche

[UsuallyPickin]

Yeah... I'd say it's the needing to use a capo versus wanting to use one that draws the line for me. As an aid to not fully learning the fingerboard I object to their use. As an aid to keep strings open and ringing for a choice of key it only makes sense. If a player makes a descision to not learn to play any instrument as completely as is physically and mentally possible for them it makes me wonder if they really wanted to play that instrument in the first place. Capos can be abused as short cuts. IMO.. R/

[Nick Triesch]

UsuallyPicking, you still do not get it or you are just being rude. I have seen so many great bluegrass bands where the guitar player was a super player, in great control and using a capo. And most of them really wanted to play that instrument in the first place. I saw Andres Segovia use one 35 years ago in L.A. and I think he really wanted to play the instrument in the first place. And he was not in a jug band.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Wait, I thought it was my turn to start an very, very, long and acrimonious thread? I was going to do 'do A style and F style sound different?', but this will do just fine.:grin:

I can still remember, way back when I posted this, thinking to myself, "what if this thread dies quickly, with few views and even fewer replies? How silly will my prediction look?"

[OldSausage]

UsuallyPicking, you still do not get it or you are just being rude. I have seen so many great bluegrass bands where the guitar player was a super player, in great control and using a capo. And most of them really wanted to play that instrument in the first place. I saw Andres Segovia use one 35 years ago in L.A. and I think he really wanted to play the instrument in the first place. And he was not in a jug band.

He's not talking about guitar, he's talking about mandolin. No-one cares if you use a capo on a guitar or not, not even the capo police.

[Randy Smith]

Capos and Mandolins--Side Note

Blues mandolinist Yank Rachell tuned his mandolin down a step and a half to be able to play in the key of E while fingering in G and to play in A while fingering in C. This thread hasn't really been about blues mandolin playing, but I thought I'd still add this to the mix.

[Petrus]

On Pete Jenner's thread, at the top of page 7 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?100212-My-mandolin-trip-to-the-USA-and-other-bits-%28of-the-globe%29/page7), I'll be danged if there ain't a video of some gals doing some fine nose trumpeting. LOL

I've seen weirder stuff than that in Thailand ... :redface:

[bjewell]

It's like a capo on an electric guitar. No one took that seriously until Jimmie Vaughn used one extensively in the Fabulous Thunderbirds. That's because some of the old blues masters did the same...

Capos are a great device for getting certain sounds, the same as open tunings and alternate tunings.

I remember guys who thought they were hot stuff cause they could use (drum roll here) a barre chord. That's fine except that is one of the most useless ways to use your fingers on a guitar ever invented. All's fair in love, war and getting a cool sound out of an instrument. Capos rule... -L-

[fatt-dad]

(Whispering words of wisdom) Let it be!

f-d

[bjewell]

<violates forum posting guidelines>

[ralph johansson]

And there you have it! Maybe not quite 12, but close enough.

Two sentences, 10 words, to be exact.

[ralph johansson]

<violates forum posting guidelines>

[ralph johansson]

<violates forum posting guidelines>

[bjewell]

<violates forum posting guidelines>

[bjewell]

<violates forum posting guidelines>

[Scott Tichenor]

Since the two of you seem to have taken over this discussion from this point forward please continue via PM if you wish, but I've had enough of the mud slinging and finger pointing, all of which violates forum posting guidelines. A reminder that being civil is part of the continued membership of this forum. Or take it elsewhere if you please.