Celtic/Irish Music 101

[Robert Smyth]

Howdy fellow Mandolinists,

I've been playing mandolin for about 10 years now and got into it through the Grateful Dead and subsequently falling in love with Bluegrass through Jerry's early side projects with Old and In the Way. I've been playing in a Bluegrass Band for the last five years or so.

I'm actually 5/8 Irish and a legal Irish citizen. I honestly have to say that I've never been pulled by Irish or Celtic music and feel like on some DNA level that I should be affected by it. What very little of the Irish fiddle music I've seen seems to have been everyone playing the melody at the same time which seems at odds with Bluegrass where everyone gets to solo at some point, which seems more democratic to me.

Anyway, I was hoping someone could point out some recordings or artists to check out. I just want to make sure I'm not missing out on something here! Cheers!

[TheBlindBard]

Well, as far as mandolin, Marla Fibish is an amazing irish mandolinist. As for other groups to look out, I would check out The Chieftains. They use alot of traditional instruments. whistle, fiddle, pipes and such.

[Killian King]

Robert, Not that it will float your boat any more than other celtic music, but check this out. I think you may recognize it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlGB-To_D-Q

[Paul Busman]

See if you can find an Irish music session in your area and go check it out. Session playing is tremendous fun. Some sessions I've been to use sheet music, so if you can sight read that you can jump right in.

[mandroid]

Irish sessions tend to use the tenor banjo a lot , to get away from doubling the Fiddler on the same pitches.

The ITB is an octave down,but still GDAE but you can learn a lot of the ornamentations from them .

[Mike Floorstand]

>Bluegrass where everyone gets to solo at some point, which seems more democratic to me.

Not sure about that. I'd say bluegrass is a sort of elective dictatorship, whereas ITM is a form of democratic centralism.

[Robert Smyth]

Thanks for all the responses. I've ordered up the Marla Fibish Morningstar album to check out!

I live in a pretty remote area of Northern California but I think there may be some Irish music gatherings up in Eureka, about an hour away. I'll keep my ears open for any activities.

[foldedpath]

>Bluegrass where everyone gets to solo at some point, which seems more democratic to me.

Not sure about that. I'd say bluegrass is a sort of elective dictatorship, whereas ITM is a form of democratic centralism.

As Lenin described it, democratic centralism consisted of "freedom of discussion, unity of action"
-- Wikipedia

That sounds about right. Although in practice, many Irish sessions operate under the benign dictatorship of a People's Commissar, otherwise known as the Alpha Fiddler in the group.

[BeginnerMandolinistTyler]

I just posted a thread on essentially this topic a few days ago! You should check it out! They have given me some great responses!

[renoyd]

Paul Kelly has an excellent CD called "A Mandolin Album". Very clean playing, beautiful stuff. He also came out with a book, "110 Irish Mandolin Tunes", which includes a CD which has all the tunes. This is one of my favorite Celtic tune books; learning a lot from it. Both can be found on the net, with the latter being more readily available. The former is more of an esoteric project to obtain in the USA, but well worth it.

[jaycat]

I don't know if the Clancy Bros. would be considered too plebeian for the purists. But I would take a listen to "Johnny McEldoo" (sorry, I couldn't find a decent YouTube version). If that doesn't hook you, I don't know what would.

[catmandu2]

Anyway, I was hoping someone could point out some recordings or artists to check out. I just want to make sure I'm not missing out on something here! Cheers!

Indeed, there is much to be missed..

Rather than isolate a couple of performers--I'm going to recommend that you start by checking out this series of vids (watch at least 10 times :) ). There are many performers and players of the music--a deep and powerful tradition: a handful of tunes played on a whistle may be enough to perk your interests!--with some exposure; without context, the most brilliant playing of the most sophisticated tunes may leave you without impression..


Ee_k8zyfU4A

[Bertram Henze]

...feel like on some DNA level that I should be affected by it.

I don't think DNA has a say in that, or else I could not love ITM as much as I do.


What very little of the Irish fiddle music I've seen seems to have been everyone playing the melody at the same time which seems at odds with Bluegrass where everyone gets to solo at some point, which seems more democratic to me.

In ITM, it's the accompanists who improvise and thereby solo (in a sort of way). At least, in ITM there is no single jam leader person to give you "the nod" or not, so there is a higher degree of equality both in rights and responsibility for everyone. There is, however, the player who starts a set - he will decide when and what to play as the next tune in the set respectively; but this role can be assumed by every player. So there is order, but less militaristic than in BG.

[Randi Gormley]

There is a difference between playing ITM and listening to it to compare it with another, more familiar and possibly favorite, genre. There are definite differences between bluegrass and ITM that go beyond simply soloists vs group playing. My sister, who plays neither (I believe she plays the radio, but I may be mistaken), willingly kept me company on vacation while I sat in a session I'd never been to before. I was immediately swept up in the music, in knowing the tunes and keeping pace, in talking with other sessioneers about people we'd played with, in the energy being generated player to player; after the first hour, she was ready to pack it in. What started as something interesting and nice to listen to became boring after about 45 minutes and she told me later that it all sounded the same to her after the first hour (yeah, I made her sit there for another 65 minutes while I had a great time). She was willing to be entertained, but as an outsider, it just didn't mean anything to her.

I'm not saying you won't find it riveting or it won't suddenly grab your soul or something. But there is a chance you'll leave a session wondering what the draw is. It really is a wonderful experience and I'd drag anybody into it if I could, but you might not be as blown away as you might thing you should be. my 2 cents

[Tim2723]

If the jigs, reels, and hornpipes of Irish Traditional Music don't speak to your heritage, why not listen to some IFT (Irish Folk Music). The Clancys, the Dubliners, the Rovers, all of those guys. I make my living with IFM yet I find ITM tedious (I know both reels, the major one and the minor one).

[Tobin]

As Lenin described it, democratic centralism consisted of "freedom of discussion, unity of action"
-- Wikipedia

That sounds about right. Although in practice, many Irish sessions operate under the benign dictatorship of a People's Commissar, otherwise known as the Alpha Fiddler in the group.
So then in ITM are all the instruments equal, or are some more equal than others? :whistling:

[catmandu2]

I see these have become more difficult to cull since I first viewed them on ytube. I'll try to pull up the older ones-

6SN3tsWUa6o&list=RDOkpxO8Q8IdE

0QzTk7JWwG0

6rKv9Jo5Xss&list=RDCIuVF-UXO3c

CIuVF-UXO3c

lINEXg6m7mw&list=RD6rKv9Jo5Xss

There's also a program called Canúintí Ceoil - regional styles in ITM

[catmandu2]

Here's a really excellent program with a broad cultural overview (café-ites will likely be interested in all the Sweeney's Men and Planxty footage. Great old 70s Chieftains too)

39D0J8SzQMA

[foldedpath]

So then in ITM are all the instruments equal, or are some more equal than others? :whistling:

Oh, there is definitely a hierarchy and they're not all equal. It's a result of both history -- i.e. which instruments have been used the longest in a very long tradition -- and also purely mechanical features like the ability to articulate ("ornament") a sustained note as a signature part of the sound. There is also a split between melody instruments which have the primary and only essential role in the music, and backup instruments playing chords (or percussion) which are considered nonessential to varying degrees depending on who you talk to, and what local session you're at.
;)

Barry Foy covers this in his "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session" small book, which I highly recommend. It’s written in a humorous, tongue-in-cheek style, so don’t take all of this literally. But there is still a germ of truth here in what you’ll find in typical sessions:


Quoted from Barry Foy - Field Guide to the Irish Music Session:

"What are all these instruments? May I take my autoharp?"

Not just yet. Read this first:

The following instruments are fully welcome and appropriate at any session of traditional Irish music. In other words, you have virtually no grounds for barring the owners of these instruments, no matter how badly they play:


Fiddle
Tinwhistle
Uillean pipes
Flute
Anglo concertina
Button accordion



The following instruments are welcome -- though not in unlimited quantities -- if the person playing them can do so in a persuasive manner (not that you’re in a position to do anything about it if they can’t).


Guitar (maximum one per session)
Bouzouki (one per session, preferably if there’s no guitar, and vice-versa).
Bodhran (one per session)
Mandolin (melodies only, no chords)
Tenor banjo (player must be able to take a joke)
Piano accordion (not bloody likely, but stranger things have happened)
Chromatic harmonica
English concertina
Piano (absolute maximum of four per session)
Bones and spoons are occasionally permissible for the sake of quaintness and charm, but the combined number of pairs of each must never exceed one.



It is reasonable to assume that any instrument that’s not on either of the previous lists is unwelcome at an Irish session. For the sake of emphasis and clarity, however -- that is, to assure that there’s no uncertainty over just how unwelcome they are -- we list some here. The following have been spotted at one time or another at Irish sessions, and their owners almost surely didn’t get the punishment they deserved.


Percussion instruments such as dumbeks, djembes, bongos, congas, tambourines, and shakers.
Electric bass, stand-up bass, washtub bass, any damn bass at all.
Five-string banjo
Hammered dulcimer
Recorder
Tinwhistles in very obscure keys
Cello, viola
Amplified guitar
Didgeridoo
Clarinet, saxophone
And since you asked, the autoharp

[catmandu2]

Barry Foy covers this in his "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session"

Interestingly, Foy seems to fully omit harp, which seems universally welcome--deriving probably both due to its presence in the tradition, as well as its minimal impact (it's a quiet instrument--can't ruin a session in the event that it's played badly).

[foldedpath]

Interestingly, Foy seems to fully omit harp, which IME is universally welcome--deriving probably both to its presence in the tradition, as well as its minimal impact (it's a quiet instrument--can't ruin a session).

That's true, although while it's probably always welcomed at sessions, I think most players consider Irish harp to be a separate part of the tradition, like Sean-nós singing, instead of something ideally suited for playing the dance tunes in an ensemble with other players. The Chieftains made it work, but we're not all the Chieftains! I've seen one harp player show up one time at a local session, but generally I think they prefer venues where they can play solo. Maybe that's why it was omitted in Barry's list... just few on the ground?

[catmandu2]

That's true, although while it's probably always welcomed at sessions, I think most players consider Irish harp to be a separate part of the tradition, like Sean-nós singing, instead of something ideally suited for playing the dance tunes in an ensemble with other players. The Chieftains made it work, but we're not all the Chieftains! I've seen one harp player show up one time at a local session, but generally I think they prefer venues where they can play solo. Maybe that's why it was omitted in Barry's list... just few on the ground?

Yes, we would think, but I believe they were traditionally a session instrument. They do show up here and there, and more than I would have anticipated. They seem to be extended sort of carte blanche when they do present (from what I've read on the harp forums). The harp tradition itself seems to be increasingly moving toward the classical/popular idiom (as with many bygone traditions), and away from folk/lever harp, so we see far more harps in the solo idiom. I'm a rare bird in that I've taken to traditional clarsach (the real traditional one--with wire strings) -- nylon stringed harps have really taken over. I've only had my harp since Spring, so I've not developed session chops yet.

Granted, it's not very common at sessions these days. But given its stature, I'm surprised it wasn't addressed (any way)--indeed, it's one of the primary instruments in the tradition. As far as relative obscurity being the reason for omission--I've yet to encounter pipes at our local sessions, but there have been harps. I'm often the only concertina/accordian player as well

Yes--it's not a particularly efficacious session instrument. But it has a special allure--owing both to its sound and its history. Yes, you've probably gotta be a bit weird for it ; )


BTW, for maybe the OP's benefit:

_Qwy1WUpW_A

[catmandu2]

Speaking of the Chieftains--and the superlative Derek Bell (et al.)

ky8_GnJaLD4&list=PLL67oenC5i5uAs3fNaT9BpMusL6VzMCcs

ANprDgQbjtQ&list=PLL67oenC5i5uAs3fNaT9BpMusL6VzMCcs

[Bertram Henze]

That's true, although while it's probably always welcomed at sessions, I think most players consider Irish harp to be a separate part of the tradition, like Sean-nós singing, instead of something ideally suited for playing the dance tunes in an ensemble with other players. The Chieftains made it work, but we're not all the Chieftains! I've seen one harp player show up one time at a local session, but generally I think they prefer venues where they can play solo. Maybe that's why it was omitted in Barry's list... just few on the ground?

I have spotted harps in sessions, but few and far between. Even then, harp players use some interval to play solo, rather than joining in the acoustic throng (just as Sean-nos singers do, yes).
Another rare phenomenon which fits in better, volume-wise, is the hammered dulcimer; I had the honor recently to sit beside a HD player in a session.

[Randi Gormley]

HD was on the list of banned instruments, but there's a very fine ITM hammered dulcimer player who I've played with once or twice and there was one at the San Francisco session I sat in in October. Ability must come in to play ... same with piano accordion. One of our best players is a piano accordionist (who also plays whistle and, now I come to think of it, used to play hammered dulcimer). Her sister plays the button accordion and, more recently, concertina. I've also been in session with harps now and again. A lot depends on the session you attend, I'd think, although a djembe player showed up at one of the sessions out here having never played (or listened to) any ITM and didn't seem to feel that that limited him. He was disabused of that notion but I don't know if it kept him away.

[catmandu2]

Seems there is generally more resistance to HD at sessions, and for good reason--given its character (an instrument with comparatively little means to control dynamics)

I've been playing HD about 20 years--finally took up harp to pursue more faithful means of harp tunes

[foldedpath]

Aside from any potential musical objections, another issue with hammered dulcimers is just the amount of real estate needed to set up and play. Most sessions I've attended have been tight-packed affairs, crammed in the corner of pubs and restaurants, where you're at risk of being poked in the eye by a fiddle bow, or dribbled on by flute. Making room for a HD, or a full-size harp for that matter, isn't always easy.

[catmandu2]

Right you are f-path. For these and other reasons (tuning is an epic issue--even for me tuning by ear; harps [wire especially] must be constantly tweaked--and is a bit more involved with a "wrench" on pins), harp-type instruments are an impractical choice--requiring some dedication, determination, or something... I resisted the urge to take it up for about 20 years--my better sense prevailing--but it (harp tunes, and the sound) haunted me unremittingly

It took me many years to get up the courage to lug my HD out the door (my preferred instrument is huge and heavy and only fits in my car if I slam the door on it). That was actually another motivating factor to take up the harp

[Gkar66]

Other album suggestions are Dave Surette's "Green Mandolin" and Robin Bullocks recordings. Well worth a listen. Also check out thesession.org for recommendations for songs/sheet music

[RickPick]

Listen to any Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill YouTube video. Then you'll be CERTAIN you have been "missing out on something"! And Marla Fibish's recent instructional DVD is excellent, if it is only Irish mandolin you want to hear. I find Irish session music far more "democratic" than bluegrass as a process, although I often enjoy listening to bluegrass expressly because it ISN'T so democratic and I can hear the soloist strut his/her stuff. If I had to choose between listening to and/or playing Irish or bluegrass, I wouldn't....

[Robert Smyth]

I want to thank everyone who's posted on this thread, with all the suggestions and youtube videos! I got Marla Fibish's Morningstar CD and have been listening to it nonstop for the last week or so. Exactly what I was looking for...high level of musicianship, melodies that stick in your head, and the simplicity of just two instruments. What a great recording...like classical music but way more accessible and engaging. It's a whole new world with the alternate time signatures of all the various jigs. I've ordered up Marla's DVD so I can get a crash course in Irish mandolin music.

I was especially pleased to find out that Marla lives in San Francisco and will be performing at the Pt. Cabrillo lighthouse in December, which is about 2 1/2 hours from my house. Excited!

[JeffD]

What very little of the Irish fiddle music I've seen seems to have been everyone playing the melody at the same time which seems at odds with Bluegrass where everyone gets to solo at some point, which seems more democratic to me.

Its a different tradition. In traditional Irish the melody is king. And improvisation is not encouraged. One can ornament and decorate the tune in many ways, to make individual, but the melody has to be instantly recognizable. Its more akin to classical music in that sense. You are trying to express the tune better and better, not express your self.

The harmonies and backup playing are not as scripted, so there is some wiggle room there. But fundamentally it is not a jam improv event, like blues or jazz or bluegrass.

Playing the melody in unison is what I live for in an Irish Session, that and hearing others playing the melody brilliantly. Letting the tune do is magic and make all of us musicians its helpless puppets.

Well folks can disagree, but that is my experience.

[EdHanrahan]

The harmonies and backup playing are not as scripted, so there is some wiggle room there.
Which is why more than one chording guitar (and/or mandolin?) is usually discouraged; if the backup harmony is being improvised on the fly, you don't want differing interpretations conflicting with each other.

[catmandu2]

... It's a whole new world

Robert, glad you got with it! Welcome to the café, btw