"Opening-up", Myth or Fact?

[Pittsburgh Bill]

As a recent devotee of the mandolin I have a question I am curious about. Has there ever been, to anyone's knowledge, scientific based studies to determine if a new mandolin really does "open-up" after being played for a break-in period.
Previously I was not a believer and even now not sure. When I first received my Collings MT I was disappointed at the volume while I really liked the tone and loved how it played up and down the neck. But, now I have absolutely no complaints about the volume as it certainly can hold it's own in a crowd. I'm not sure if this can be attributed to it "opening up" or as the result of my finding a preferable pick.

[Marty Jacobson]

Welcome to the forum. Scientifically, there is evidence that this can happen. As witness to this fact, Bill Monroe's Loar definitely opened up after a break-in period.
109215

[MikeEdgerton]

You beat me to it. To answer the question, no, there have been no scientific studies that have proven the phenomenon of opening up. There are however a whole lot of folks that will offer their opinions on the subject either way. You will see them start soon. Here (https://www.google.com/search?q=opening+up+site%3Amandolincafe.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) are 4,260 results in a Google search of the cafe if you'd like to peruse them while waiting. This subject tends to arouse passionate discussions.

[Jim]

My instruments have often sounded better after I played them for a while. I am not sure if the instrument changes or if I learn to play it in such a way as to make is sound better.

[Gplayer]

It has to be true. The entire future of all solid wood instruments depends on it.

[The dman]

I buy that instruments can change over time but as a long time audio engineer I don't buy that people are as in tune to the changes as they claim to be. There's way too many variables

[William Smith]

Fact

[mandroid]

rather a FAQ : http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4134202

[FLATROCK HILL]

I don't have a strong opinion, one side or the other in this long continuing argument. Here is a link to a vintage Gibson 'A'-Model information article, published right here on the Cafe site:http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/gibsona/gibsona.html

I'm not claiming that the Mandolin Cafe site (or Scott T.) officially supports the opinions expressed in that article. It is interesting to me though that the author(s) of that page refer to the 'opening up' (they refer to it as 'breaking in' vs 'sleeping') phenomenon as though it was an absolute fact.

[bratsche]

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/y/B/r/J/p/7/not-again-md.png

http://dailypicksandflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/pigeon-vs-facepalm-statue-.jpg


bratsche

[OldSausage]

The world is full of facts that aren't true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions

[MikeEdgerton]

The world is full of facts that aren't true.

85% of all facts aren't true. The other 15% are questionable. I just made that up but I know it has to be true. It's on the Internet.

[Jacob]

Touchy Questions for a Museum's Rare Instrument Collection (http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/118327-touchy-questions-museums-rare-instrument-collection/)
String Instruments Sound Better When Played Regularly. But Should it Matter?

[Stephen Perry]

Opening up is quite obvious in violins. I've heard the 6 minute / 6 months / 6 years / 60 years concept espoused and can't see anything against that. The first few minutes are amazing!

[Astro]

Sometimes I get the impression that my mandolin sounds richer after a few minutes of play.

But my wife swears my instruments sound better after I quit playing them.

[Ron McMillan]

Here we go again.... :(

[Bill Baldridge]

It seems to be an opinion: my opinion is fact and yours is myth.:grin:

[Nick Triesch]

I bought my f type mandolin 10 years ago. It sounds very nice now but really about the same as when I bought it in 2003.

[Tom Coletti]

<lame humor removed>
--Tom

[ralph johansson]

The topic has been done to death; use the search function. As you can see these threads usually degenerate into silly attempts at humor; also some people offer very strong opinions without even trying to understand the issue. Let's just say it's much better understood, and more thoroughly investigated, in the case of guitars.

[Ron McMillan]

As you can see these threads usually degenerate into silly attempts at humor.


If anyone's here for the humour, they must have taken a wrong turning and ended up here by mistake. This forum is a joy for many splendid reasons, but the lame humour is not one of them.

[Michael Bridges]

109259
I actually LIKE the lame humor!

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'm inclined to believe that there is 'something' to the opening up scenario. Going back 2 1/2 years to when i bought my current Lebeda mandolin,it was 10 years old but had hardly been played at all - it was literally like new.When it first arrived,after letting it warm up for a couple of hours,i played it & it sounded as tight as a drum - plunky,& with little sustain. It remained like this for several weeks,although as i played it for 2 - 3 hours each day,the tone did change. Over the time that i've had it,it's been played a lot & has developed a deep,woody tone, & it's pretty loud as well. Call it 'opening up' or 'acclimatisation' to my home - whatever,something's happened. I do know that both my mandolins are affected by room temp.,(humidity isn't such a big deal in the UK),so maybe it's the acclimatisation that's kicked in. I can only imagine that a similar thing would happen with other player's instruments & that a tonal / volume improvement (or difference), will occur - so call it what you will,
Ivan;)

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I'd say fact, but might not always audible. Professor Gerhard Alfred von Reumont's studies on dedamping are worth reading. We are not (yet) talking about aging.

[bmac]

Any unprovable "fact" is a humor generater and that is as it should be..

[Astro]

I'd go so far as to say that attempts at lame humor are almost the only reason to post further in this thread.

Let the curmudgeons beat what is now compost where the horse died into clouds of dust using fabled remembrances and psuedo-science.

Its at least a work out for the shrinking frontal lobes of the aging male mind. Better than reading op-eds and obituaries anyway. Meanwhile, whoot-on !

Flame retardant:
I have no idea what Tom said above and this rambling was not directed as a response in context to any specific post here. in fact, as usual, I include myself among those roasted. Why, who here has not spatted subjective remembrances, pseudo-science, and intolerances from the early stages of irritable old man syndrome? We need both humor and horse beatings. In fact, a forum without them would be called...wikepedia?

[Bertram Henze]

I actually LIKE the lame humor!

So do I. :)

But not to let the OP walk into an open trap with an innocent question, I give my serious view on this:

1 - there is the effect of new put-together parts "settling" into contact, like the bridge and the top, for instance. Can happen in the very beginning and should take weeks but not years (I think Ivan's story refers to such a case). It is repeated on a lesser scale every time strings are changed - they may take a few hours (not more) to be played in.

2 - there is the effect of an instrument stored under dry conditions and then being played with hot humid steamy hands, letting the top change its shape ever so slightly; this is also known as "waking up" and not to be mixed up with any long-term so-called "opening up". It stopped happening to me since I put a humidifier in my case.

3 - there are theories of the wood structure itself getting waulked into flexibility by application of vibration (think: Tonerite) - that's the part I am not buying.

Disclaimer: all this is a-posteriori rationalization of what would make sense in my world model (or, as they say in Star Wars: I don't care what universe you're from, that's got to hurt!)

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Well I wish I had the link to where I read this, however I believe there have been a few studies done about this. One that I read ( albeit a long time ago ) is that the cells in Spruce tend to dry slowly and will expand over time. As they expand they become slightly larger and more hollow and will resonate more vigorously with time. The combination of all these microscopic cell structures slightly changing shape over time can slightly alter the tone and volume of the instrument, as they all work together in a piece of Spruce. The old violin makers all attested to this phenomenon as well. It mentioned also that vigorous play had alot to do with it, lot's of vibrations riding the top over time. However I've noticed it most during periods where I was really jamming, practicing and playing alot in my group.

I can't really explain it but my ear hears differences albeit subtle and over a long period of time, I've noticed of all the mandolins I've had that they sounded the fullest and loudest when I was playing them the most....like I said, I know many disagree but I can attest to it their being changes and I know because my ear hears them over time. Play a mandolin enough and use it enough and you'll be able to tell....trust me. So in my opinion their is truth to this phenomenon.

PS: I fully expect to receive alot of flack over this response so let me have it LOL!!!

[almeriastrings]

"As an auto-didactic scientist Dr. Joh. Gg. Pfeiffer is actively engaged on the sector of string instrument making with comparative studies and investigations into arching and groove design, etc. as functions of resultant tonal character. In addition, the author embarks on a critical study of what, in a number of cases, are widely contradicting theories encountered in literature on bowed instruments as regards the vibrational pattern and formation of sound waves. His aim is to enhance the efficiency of tone formation by modifying the mechanism responsible for sound transmission, while simplifying the vibrational system, hitherto regarded as being elaborate and abstruse"

;)

Actually, worth a read...

http://www.fritz-reuter.com/books/rin031.htm

[Phantoj]

Luthier Al Carruth has done some analysis of guitars and had seen measurable changes in their response over time.

[Stephen Perry]

Let's consider doing science for this.

1. Parameters to measure
2. Suitable "N"
3. Allowable variation in instruments at the start
4. Time period
5. What input to impose
6. Time period

Let's go simple. N = 50. Instrument = nearly identical Collings MT. Measure sound output by frequency range with a standardized input. Measure at new, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years. Select 10 instruments randomly at controls and do nothing. All instruments are stored the same. The other 40 instruments, half are plucked mechanically for 90 minutes/day. The other half are plucked mechanically for 180 minutes/day. All instruments at the measurement times are rated on a suitably detailed scale and on like/don't like scale by the same 20 musicians.

This is why simple science isn't done.

[MikeEdgerton]

I love predicting the future. It's happening just as I said it would.

[Wolfmanbob]

No question about it. If you play that mandolin 2 - 3 hours a day consistently for a period of several months, "it" will sound much better.

[Toast]

85% of all facts aren't true. The other 15% are questionable. I just made that up but I know it has to be true. It's on the Internet.

If you made it up, it must be true.

[bernabe]

Does the arch profile effect how an instrument sounds?
Does the arch profile change sometimes, even slightly or barely noticeable, in instruments that have been strung up for a while?
Does pressure on wood cause, to some degree, compression of that wood?
I think the answer to the OP question is anywhere between none to extreme.
Ever see a mandolin top completely flatten on top. That did'nt happen over night. I'm sure the sound in the end was no where near what it was when first strung up new. A mandolin is under too much tension not to change to "some" degree over time IMO. Some, because of how they're built, may not be enough of a change to be audibly noticeable. Many variables to suggest a yes or no. Just my $.02

[mtm]

After 9 months, my mandolin finally opened up to me yesterday, during the Packer game no less. It (she?) was very sincere, but told me that much like the Packers quarterback position, it (she) really wanted a veteran to be playing, and it (she) wanted to trade me ...

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

"As an auto-didactic scientist Dr. Joh. Gg. Pfeiffer is actively engaged on the sector of string instrument making with comparative studies and investigations into arching and groove design, etc. as functions of resultant tonal character. In addition, the author embarks on a critical study of what, in a number of cases, are widely contradicting theories encountered in literature on bowed instruments as regards the vibrational pattern and formation of sound waves. His aim is to enhance the efficiency of tone formation by modifying the mechanism responsible for sound transmission, while simplifying the vibrational system, hitherto regarded as being elaborate and abstruse"

;)

Actually, worth a read...

http://www.fritz-reuter.com/books/rin031.htm

Hey he is a Pfeiffer....maybe we're related? LOL...
I read the content very interesting....I found this particular quote to be very interesting and telling....I must say that I whole-heartedly agree:

The real difficulty of violin making lies in determining the strength of the wood, harmonizing the front and back, making the correct cut and, above all, choosing the right wood, quite apart from things not visible externally. Good craftsmanship is of course important in order to create an aesthetic outward appearance. This alone, however, is not sufficient to attain good tone quality. Precise workmanship and superior wood are no guarantee that a first-class soloist's violin is going to emerge.

[MikeEdgerton]

After 9 months, my mandolin finally opened up to me yesterday, during the Packer game no less. It (she?) was very sincere, but told me that much like the Packers quarterback position, it (she) really wanted a veteran to be playing, and it (she) wanted to trade me ...

That's a beautiful story that I'm sure we all can learn from. Thanks for sharing.

[palosfv3]

Sounds like a job for "MythBusters" on the Discovery channel, but only if the redheaded girl is the team leader .

[Jim]

Sounds like a job for "MythBusters" on the Discovery channel, but only if the redheaded girl is the team leader .
+1 for red headed girl , but the dude with the mustache could build a great pneumatic strummer.

[JonZ]

On a scale of 1 to 10, it was a 10 when I bought it.

Now it's an 11!

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I'd say fact, but might not always audible. Professor Gerhard Alfred von Reumont's studies on dedamping are worth reading. We are not (yet) talking about aging.

Somebody actually did research and was even granted a patent on the basis of further research by Jürgen Meyer (Technische Bundesanstalt Braunschweig), and not even one of you is vaguely interested. Pittsburgh Bill, why did you even ask?

[OldSausage]

Well I for one am vaguely interested. But who is Professor Gerhart Alfred Von Reumont, and where can I read his research? Is he related to this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_von_Reumont

[Perry]

fact

[Jim Adwell]

Well I for one am vaguely interested. But who is Professor Gerhart Alfred Von Reumont, and where can I read his research? Is he related to this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_von_Reumont

http://www.worldcat.org/title/how-to-improve-the-resonance-conditions-of-musical-instruments-by-vibration-dedamping/oclc/223067081

Good luck finding the book.

Of course, without reading this book we don't actually know what it's about. "Vibration dedamping" could be any number of things.

If someone finds and reads the research and reports back here I'd be interested to discuss it. Without any actual information about the good professor and his research it's difficult to form an opinion one way or the other.

Oh hey, apparently Henry Strobel sells the book:

http://henrystrobel.com/booklist.htm#dedamp

Anyone want to spend $29.50 plus shipping to find out?

[grassrootphilosopher]

Well I for one am vaguely interested. But who is Professor Gerhart Alfred Von Reumont, and where can I read his research? Is he related to this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_von_Reumont

I figure that your wikipedia article does not refer to the Reumont guy in question. It´s rather this one (www.amazon.de/Gerhard-A.-von-Reumont/e/B001K1K23I).

Anyhowe Hendrik (Henry Eagle) is no dunce when it comes to sound (http://www.orgelbau-ahrend.de/sites/start.htm). Even though the argumentum ab auctoritate (authoritative argument) does not amount to poop, Hendrik knows his Loar when he sees it. Take it from me (argumentum ab auctoritate) (hehehehe).

Now where do we stand?
I think, like Hendrik (Henry Eagle), that an instrument "opens up".

Why could that be?

It could be because:
- the wonderfull instrument makes me play better, or
- the wonderfull instrument changes with the playing time.

A buddy of mine who has a couple of instruments (some of which I would consider quite okay) delved into how to perform a really good setup. The results were stunning! A Lloyd Loar with a bad setup may well be just as bad/good as a well setup (insert an average brand).

My buddy has (argumentum ab auctoritate; hehehe again) really performed "wonders" on mediocre instruments.

I am on Hendriks side when it comes to the claim that an instrument opens up. When I had my "new" mandolin delivered it sounded like a teens F-4. Now my F-5 does sound like an F-5 (!). Is this subjective? It´s you to decide.

[OldSausage]

Thanks. I have every respect for both you and Henry Eagle.

[OU1]

As a recent devotee of the mandolin I have a question I am curious about. Has there ever been, to anyone's knowledge, scientific based studies to determine if a new mandolin really does "open-up" after being played for a break-in period.
Previously I was not a believer and even now not sure. When I first received my Collings MT I was disappointed at the volume while I really liked the tone and loved how it played up and down the neck. But, now I have absolutely no complaints about the volume as it certainly can hold it's own in a crowd. I'm not sure if this can be attributed to it "opening up" or as the result of my finding a preferable pick.

Hey Pittsburgh Bill....I think you might have answered the question you were posing when you said, I didn't like the sound originally...but now you don't have any complaints......I have pondered the question as well, but only after reading posts in the cafe. I am your garden variety mandolin player and just love the sound of the music that comes from them. I have a mid-ranged price pointed mandolin and I can tell the difference between my less expensive one and can certainly tell I have gotten used to the sound of the better on.....is that breaking the mandolin in or just my acceptance of this sound....don't know for sure. I appreciated your question as it made me think...good post.

Scott

[Steve Ostrander]

No mandolin content, but my buddy bought a brand new D-28-12 a few years ago. When he got it, it was tight and honestly didn't sound that great. Now, four years later, it sounds fantastic.

He also bought a new D-18 about four months ago that sounded great right from the git-go. I'll let you know in four years if it improves....

[nickster60]

I think they do. Just my observations, it seems more obvious in my violins. I am not sure if bow has something to do with it. My Weber was pretty good from the start but the tone has become more complex over time.

[Mike Bunting]

I have certainly noticed a deepening development of tone in my Stanley over the last few years.

[almeriastrings]

There is (a lot) more on this, including a free PDF download discussing the topic at considerable length here:

http://henrystrobel.com/vibrate.htm

Subjectively, I also feel that 'opening up' is a genuine phenomenon. Proving it is not exactly easy, though.

[calgary.fiddler]

So do I. :)

3 - there are theories of the wood structure itself getting waulked into flexibility by application of vibration (think: Tonerite) - that's the part I am not buying.



There actually is some serious science to back-up this theory. I forget where I read about this but simply it all has to do with the instruments natural vibration frequency. Everything has a certain harmonic frequency, every part of a newly constructed instrument has a different frequency (the top, side, frets, ect) When you play your instrument you are vibrating all the pieces at the same frequency (albiet every different note or chord is a different frequency, but all the parts experience these different frequency's at the same time.) Over time the different parts start to change their frequency so that the different parts start to vibrate at a more similar frequency. When you hear people say that "The whole instrument vibrates under every note" its describing that phenomenon. This video helps to show this change of frequency happening over the course of 4 minutes. Sadly this is just with metronomes and not an instrument. Instruments take much, much longer for this to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqFc4wriBvE&list=FLDANGLk54TkhEnkFMosPWuA&index=14

It is just a theory, but has a solid scientific explanation to back it up.

[Mike Romkey]

Seven.

[ralph johansson]

As a recent devotee of the mandolin I have a question I am curious about. Has there ever been, to anyone's knowledge, scientific based studies to determine if a new mandolin really does "open-up" after being played for a break-in period.
Previously I was not a believer and even now not sure. When I first received my Collings MT I was disappointed at the volume while I really liked the tone and loved how it played up and down the neck. But, now I have absolutely no complaints about the volume as it certainly can hold it's own in a crowd. I'm not sure if this can be attributed to it "opening up" or as the result of my finding a preferable pick.

I hope I'm forgiven for a serious post among all the puerile noise. No one claims that "a new mandolin", i.e., an arbitrary one, will "open up". For instance, no one claims that a Samick or Washburn will overcome its obvious weakness in a few years. And of course there is no way of proving that all "quality mandolins" will become more responsive over the years.
The only provable thesis is that the phenomenon exists, in mandolins, guitars, and violins, because a few examples suffice. That's what Mr. Perry and Alan Carruth have done with their measurements. And I guess the point in both cases is not to prove something but to explain the phenomenon - what exactly does "opening up" mean in terms of measurable entities. A different matter, of course, is the physics behind it. Any materials scientist will explain that vibrating materials are changed by being vibrated - they tend to vibrate more readily at these frequencies. But I don't believe that's the whole story.

In my guitars I've recognized the phenomenon most concretely in their behavior at anti-resonant spots, most prominently the low f on the d string (one step below the lowest note on a mandolin). But I'm not reallly aware of these spots on my mandolins! Possibly because mandolins have no sustain to speak of, anyway.

[bjewell]

The topic has been done to death; use the search function. As you can see these threads usually degenerate into silly attempts at humor; also some people offer very strong opinions without even trying to understand the issue. Let's just say it's much better understood, and more thoroughly investigated, in the case of guitars.

And Heaven forbid that anyone wrote something with a smirk in the presence of Ralph...

[MikeEdgerton]

So the opening up phenomena is based on price point. Who knew?

[OldSausage]

Sometimes a finish is used on mandolins which can take weeks or even months to fully harden. As it hardens, it definitely will change the sound of your instrument and could give the impression that "the wood" has "opened up".

I have pre-de-damped the mandolin plates I made by going over them with a random orbit sander. They'll know how to vibrate after that alright.

[Terry Allan Hall]

When I bought my favorite Guild, one of the only "virginal" instruments I've ever owned (absolute brand new out of the box, I played it immediately upon removal, liked it, took it home that day) and that night I decided to do an experiment: I set up up a guitar stand in one corner of my studio, set up a boom mic, and recorded it at about a few hours after "birth". The guitar stand and mic remained exactly in the same place, w/ same orientation, for six months, and once a month, I re-recorded her.

While this was going on, when I wasn't playing her, she sat in the stand with a speaker, playing NPR (so as to get a variety of tones to vibrate her) aimed at her and turned up loud enough to make the face vibrate and the strings "sing", for 12 hours a day. During this period, I took lengths to keep all factors exactly the same, such as string composition/gauge/brand (D'Addario j16s), so as to reduce variables. The strings were, in each case, changed the day before the recording.

After 6 months of this, the tonal difference was dramatic...her tone was much richer/fuller, as the recordings proved, and, interestingly enough, the 4th, 5th and 6th month recordings sounded very similar, with the 1st through 3rd month recordings showing the most change/tonal improvement...

I'm convinced, therefore, that a lot of vibrating of a quality instrument's top, over time, opens it up.

About a year later, a buddy of mine wanted to do the same thing with his fresh out-of-the-box laminate-topped Yamaha FG-335, to see if a lam-topped instrument improves with use...the results weren't as dramatic, but there was some improvement, but this time most of the improvement came in the first month, with less and less change over the following 5 months.

Science marches on! :grin:

[Tom Coletti]

And Heaven forbid that anyone wrote something with a smirk in the presence of Ralph...

Heaven and I have worked out an agreement: I'm allowed certain leeway with lame humor so long as I get them a packet of microwaveable pizza pockets whenever I make a Costco run.

--Tom

[Samuel David Britton]

To prove the hypothesis(fact) of "opening up" through the scientific method, all the variables would have to be the same. The variables would include differences in humidity, temperature, the room, recording equipment, the player, strings, frets, and the listener. If all the variables are the same(which is almost impossible) you would then have a double blind study of the recordings to determine if there was any change. If this was proved you would have to do it again with different mandolins to see if it was just that one mandolin that changed over a period of time. Then the hypothesis(fact) would be proved or disproved.

[bratsche]

109312

bratsche

[OldSausage]

To prove the hypothesis(fact) of "opening up" through the scientific method, all the variables would have to be the same.

a = b = c = x = y = zzzzzzzz

[Hendrik Ahrend]

You got it, Old Sausage, dedamping equals relaxing, which comes right before falling asleep.:sleepy:

[Terry Allan Hall]

To prove the hypothesis(fact) of "opening up" through the scientific method, all the variables would have to be the same. The variables would include differences in humidity, temperature, the room, recording equipment, the player, strings, frets, and the listener. If all the variables are the same(which is almost impossible) you would then have a double blind study of the recordings to determine if there was any change. If this was proved you would have to do it again with different mandolins to see if it was just that one mandolin that changed over a period of time. Then the hypothesis(fact) would be proved or disproved.

This is true and I'd like to, one day, repeat my experiment with a half-dozen (or more, even) "virginal" instruments, to see how that would work out...it's quite possible that some of the six will improve to a greater (or lesser) degree and some will improve at a faster (or slower) rate.

Lots to learn!

An interesting article: http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/27/science/when-violinists-play-their-violins-improve.html

[Charley wild]

So the opening up phenomena is based on price point. Who knew?

Actually in my case Mike, it's going to open up just before I decide to advertise it for sale.

[Bertram Henze]

109312

bratsche

http://www.klangundkleid.de/img/plakate/film/381630_IWantToBelieve.jpg

[Cheryl Watson]

Hahaha...my bluegrass hatin' Momma and brother think the same thing!


Sometimes I get the impression that my mandolin sounds richer after a few minutes of play.

But my wife swears my instruments sound better after I quit playing them.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually in my case Mike, it's going to open up just before I decide to advertise it for sale.

This shall forever be known as the Charley Wild effect.

[Nick Triesch]

If I do not play my mandolin for a few days, I can pick it and it can sound muddy. Then I snap each string and re tune and it is clear and nice again and sounds like the day I bought it. Years ago I had a nice flatiron F5 and put it in front of a big speaker for many hours. After two years my mandolin sounded the same but the speaker cone developed a crack! So from now on I will just buy instruments that sound good from the start.

[Mastertone08]

I agree instruments do "open up" from when they are completed. Here are four examples.

1) The bridge on my 1966 Martin D-28 started to come up in the early 70's. My luthier suggested we remove the bridge and finish completely (down to the wood) and re-attach using hide glue. That change made quite a difference in tone and response. We assumed at the time it was because hide glue dries very hard. I still believe that today.

2) I bought a BRW A-model in 2008. Ben Wilcox told me this nitro finished mandolin would be tight as delivered but would change in about a year. And, it did. Among other things the bass register and the chop became sharper and more pronounced. The mid-range also changed for the better.

3) I bought a BRW F-model in 2011. Ben Wilcox told me to wait a year for the varnish to set completely. After ten months the change in tone and response was already obvious. My friend's ears heard the same changes without being prompted by me.

4) I bought a used 2006 Martin D-18V earlier this year. One brush across the strings and I was hooked on this one. The guitar had probably sat in a case for most of its life and had seen little playing time. After four months of regular use the change in the guitar was dramatic. I first noticed this after several eight hour jam sessions. Now it opens-up much sooner - in maybe a half-hour.

These are my personal experience with instruments changing in the short-term. I'm not sure of all of the reasons but my ears tell me something positive is happening.

[MikeEdgerton]

I agree instruments do "open up" from when they are completed. Here are four examples...

4) I bought a used 2006 Martin D-18V earlier this year. One brush across the strings and I was hooked on this one. The guitar had probably sat in a case for most of its life and had seen little playing time. After four months of regular use the change in the guitar was dramatic. I first noticed this after several eight hour jam sessions. Now it opens-up much sooner - in maybe a half-hour.
...

What you are describing is what is known as waking up. Opening up would be a change that happens after time and remains. Waking up is the change that happens after the instrument is played for a few minutes. In the past this has been described as two separate issues. This too is open to interpretation.

[Samuel David Britton]

I think waking up is the player warming up. Though the wood might change a little bit too.

[bratsche]

http://www.klangundkleid.de/img/plakate/film/381630_IWantToBelieve.jpg

http://media.wcnc.com/images/032311-Bigfoot.JPG

:disbelief:

bratsche

[Pittsburgh Bill]

Thanks to every one for their insight. As a newbie I had no idea what a tired subject this was nor the controversy it stirs. I was simply asking if any one knew of any scientific studies to confirm what I so often hear.
After reading everyone's take on this subject, I will stick with "myth" since I need everything proven by science to make me a believer. I just have to contribute the increased volume on my Collings to my pick selection or to the fact that I may be playing it differently than when I first got it.
So since this is such a tired subject, please let us put it to rest. If it continues it will not be on my behalf.

[mandolirius]

I don't believe much will happen unless the instrument is played hard. I think that contributes to it "opening up" more than anything. A friend had an early '80s Gibson F-5 that, even though it was twenty years old, never sounded like much. Then he played the tar out of it for a couple of years and, lo and behold, it sounded great.

[ralph johansson]

So the opening up phenomena is based on price point. Who knew?

Who said anything about price point?

[ralph johansson]

Sometimes a finish is used on mandolins which can take weeks or even months to fully harden. As it hardens, it definitely will change the sound of your instrument and could give the impression that "the wood" has "opened up".

I have pre-de-damped the mandolin plates I made by going over them with a random orbit sander. They'll know how to vibrate after that alright.

In the 70's Ibanez mandolins where reputed to lose their tone and volume over time - actually I myself had had that experience when I read about it. The explanation offered was that they were heavily finished so that the tops became more rigid when the finish hardened.

[Nick Gellie]

Why can't it be great just straight out of the box? Why do you have to play the hell out of it to make it sound good. It should sound great straight from the start.

Cheers

Nic

[Petrus]

Actually the same theory has long been debated in regard to other instruments, including the guitar and maybe most especially the violin. This is one reason vintage instruments can cost thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of dollars. That makes me a little suspicious that the theory is mainly held by those with a vested interest in making money on vintage instruments -- although it's true that many of them are beautifully made and unique in their own right regardless of sound changes over time.

Logically, I would think that anything as complicated as a wooden instrument with many strings and small parts is going to change its tone over time. Strings stretch with use, fittings loosen, and of course wood is affected by changes in humidity. Glue can soften or harden. Strings can be changed but other changes may become permanent over time. The constant vibrations moving through the wood must have a cumulative effect on its sound.

[Bertram Henze]

So since this is such a tired subject, please let us put it to rest.

...said the Sorcerer's Apprentice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTnJNGvQcA).

[Tobin]

Why can't it be great just straight out of the box? Why do you have to play the hell out of it to make it sound good. It should sound great straight from the start.

Cheers

Nic
It should sound good out of the box, and if it doesn't, it's not a good mandolin. And one should never buy a poor sounding mandolin in the hopes that it will sound good later, of course. But even on a great sounding brand-new mandolin, the sound will change over time with regular use, and most people who experience it will indeed perceive that it sounds better with a lot of play (this is subjective, obviously). That just seems to be a logical result of physics and the behavior of materials.

Vehicles will run differently once they have a few thousand miles on them and the moving parts have settled or worn in. Clothes will fit differently after they've been worn and washed several times, and start to stretch or get softer and take the shape of the person who wears them. Hats will fit differently with regular wear. Saddles will fit both horse and rider differently after being used several times, especially with hard use. Buildings will behave differently as the structural components settle and internal stresses start to redistribute, especially once they've been through weather/temperature changes. Take any man-made object, and you'll find that it behaves/performs a little differently after some use. Mandolins are no exception. The vibrations and dynamic loading (i.e. transient internal forces) that occur when playing will cause slight internal changes, both to the joints and connections as well as the fixed members themselves. That's not a myth, it is fact, just like it is with any other man-made object.

The only "mythical" part about this phenomenon is how much of the difference we can actually hear, or whether it's actually "better" (whatever that may mean scientifically). But I think people tend to underestimate the sensitivity of the human ear, or the way our brains translate the information. We get so caught up in trying to explain away this phenomenon as a "wishful thinking" type of thing and refuse to believe that what our ears are telling us might really be true.

Our modern reliance on science has jaded us into thinking that nothing is real without extensive double-blind studies and volumes of peer-reviewed publications. Instead of having an open mind and saying, "My senses tell me this is happening; I'd like to study it and verify it," people seem to say, "It's all B.S. until you prove it to me." I wonder, do these people refuse to believe the sky is blue until someone proves it to them? Do they not trust their own eyes?

OK, sorry for the long tangent. Just food for thought.

[MikeEdgerton]

I believe the sky is blue, I think there is a chance that some instruments will change over time for a variety of reasons, I know some will not change, I know that some instruments wake up, I know that humidity has more effect on instruments than most people recognize, I realize that there are days when the human ear just doesn't pick up on sound the same way it does the next day, that could be mood or any number of other factors, I know that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear so you need to like the way the instrument sounds from day one, I accept the fact that other people have opinions other than mine, and I have an eraser on my pencil that I've used many times to correct my own mistakes.

[OldSausage]

But more, much more than this, I did it MYYYYYYYYYY wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

[Stephen Perry]

1. The wood itself will age as time goes on. Various studies describe this in detail.
2. The finish and glue will continue to change for a long time.
3. Humidity cycling does a good deal of breaking in on its own.

Thus part of the need for a control group.

I described an experiment above. It looks expensive to me. But it would work. Go for it.

I'm always amazed that an effect so accepted in the violin world by professionals is the subject of debate elsewhere.

[GRW3]

I'd never buy an instrument on the promise it would get better when it opened up. I want a great sounding instrument from the start, taking any improvement as a bonus. The Stradivarius story says something about aging instruments having improved sound. But I think there is a lot to say about players learning to get the most our of their instrument.

To the latter point I'll relate a scene from a Gillian Welch concert. (I can't remember if this was a webcast or a YouTube.) Gillian broke a string on her guitar and David Rawlings was changing it for her. She was holding his famed Epiphone Olympus. She then spoke to the audience and said (paraphrased) Everybody goes on about how great this guitar is but I'm telling you it's David's ability that makes the difference. She then played David's guitar and it didn't sound very good. Picking an archtop takes a different skill set from a flattop.

[AlanN]

Well, I'm standing next to a mountain
And I chop it down with the edge of my hand

[fatt-dad]

the shoes need to fit right from the box. They will likely get more comfortable over time though. . .

f-d

[Stephen Perry]

I'd never buy an instrument on the promise it would get better when it opened up. I want a great sounding instrument from the start, taking any improvement as a bonus. The Stradivarius story says something about aging instruments having improved sound. But I think there is a lot to say about players learning to get the most our of their instrument.

To the latter point I'll relate a scene from a Gillian Welch concert. (I can't remember if this was a webcast or a YouTube.) Gillian broke a string on her guitar and David Rawlings was changing it for her. She was holding his famed Epiphone Olympus. She then spoke to the audience and said (paraphrased) Everybody goes on about how great this guitar is but I'm telling you it's David's ability that makes the difference. She then played David's guitar and it didn't sound very good. Picking an archtop takes a different skill set from a flattop.

This issue always comes up. I don't see anyone promoting the position that one would be well advised to buy an instrument hoping or planning on it opening up. Now I will do such a thing, but I will also buy an instrument I know I can make sound lots better. I can pretty much tell which instruments out of a batch seem to have the greatest potential. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone else to try that approach, and my advice on such matters has been along the lines of "If I were getting one, I'd chose this one because XYZ."

[MikeEdgerton]

A few years back we had a member that bought a new budget brand mandolin and then proceeded to go on an on about how he had it standing in the corner of his living room with his stereo speakers blasting music at it for weeks knowing it was going to improve. That fallacy is commonplace and this statement will generate messages from people that will swear it works. The problem is that it's not a realistic answer and I for one doubt the real value. People do think they can buy an instrument of lesser quality or with a diminished sound and that time will change it. The problem is that it probably doesn't really change it but if you work at something long enough you, and only you will probably want to notice a difference bad enough that you can convince yourself that it has changed.

[dusty miller]

Still waiting for my Fender to open up and sound like a Gibson.

[Gplayer]

Still waiting for my Fender to open up and sound like a Gibson.

At least you'll always have something to look forward too.

[bjewell]

Great guitars sound great from the getgo and only get better. I think as a top becomes more flexible from vibrating it sounds better.

[bratsche]

Still waiting for my Fender to open up and sound like a Gibson.

http://raincoaster.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/linus-and-sally-await-the-great-pumpkin.jpg?w=558

bratsche

[bobby bill]

After years of therapy, my 1911 Gibson A is finally able to open up.

[Vincent Capostagno]

There is no doubt that there is a change in the physical properties of several materials used in the construction of the mandolin. The real question is whether these changes result in an audible change and if so, whether this change represents an improvement. In most mechanical systems, ageing represents a decrease in performance.....scotch and wine are not mechanical systems.

[roysboy]

Unless I overlooked comments about it , where does the TONERITE fit into this discussion ? A friend has a guitar shop in town . He's not a luthier but repairs guitars ....acoustics and electrics . He also sells new acoustics and before he displays them , he " TONERITES' them . He swears it opens them up . He's a helluva player (professionally for many many years ) and has operated recording studios ....so he KNOWS sound and has product to prove it . ......

[Tom Coletti]

TONERITE

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/973796/silly-olympics-o.gif
[x] (http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/973796/silly-olympics-o.gif)

--Tom

[Hendrik Ahrend]

There is no doubt that there is a change in the physical properties of several materials used in the construction of the mandolin. The real question is whether these changes result in an audible change and if so, whether this change represents an improvement. In most mechanical systems, ageing represents a decrease in performance.....scotch and wine are not mechanical systems.

Aging and dedamping are two pairs of shoes. We are only talking about the latter, opening-up through vibration, either by playing the instrument or by artificially vibrating it, that is dedamping by means of the Tone Rite or other devices.
The first attempts at dedamping musical instruments in the early '70s were inspired by a method of reducing inner tension in steel building constructions through vibration - over stimulation, if you will - in order to prevent them from cracking, since annealing large structures isn't feasible. The principle is simple: Keep the vibration at a certain frequency and amplitude over several days, and you will notice a decreasing amount of (electrical) energy needed to generate that frequency and amplitude. In the beginning of the treatment, that decrease of energy is a lot more than after a few days, where it's almost none. This is all measurable and - at that point - has nothing to do with magic, belief or aging. (So much for Reumont in layman's, non-native speaker's terms.) Questions remain, if the effect is a) audible, and b) if the Tone Rite, which comes without frequency-adjuster and stroboscope (to check amplitude), has the same effect as Reumont's devices.

[Bertram Henze]

Keep the vibration at a certain frequency and amplitude over several days, and you will notice a decreasing amount of (electrical) energy needed to generate that frequency and amplitude. In the beginning of the treatment, that decrease of energy is a lot more than after a few days, where it's almost none.

Assuming that the electric energy of this device is transformed into two other forms of energy - sound in the air (wanted), and heat (real "damping", unwanted) - the decrease of device output can be interpreted in several ways:
- less heat but same sound
- same heat but less sound
- combination of the above
...neither of which would be encouraging. An instrument with an increasing sound output should thereby draw increasing power from the device. This corresponds to the fact that a louder instrument has less sustain, because the pick energy is drained more quickly.

[G7MOF]

I don't know if this has anything to do with your original question but, I have a Fylde Single Malt which always has a faint smell of whisky. When I've played it for a while the smell becomes greater. I've even tried to play it without resting my fore arm on the body thinking it could be the heat off my arm but again after a while the smell gets greater. (Or could it be the ghosts of the distillery coming to haunt me?)

[Bertram Henze]

I've even tried to play it without resting my fore arm on the body thinking it could be the heat off my arm but again after a while the smell gets greater. (Or could it be the ghosts of the distillery coming to haunt me?)

Your arm would touch the top, which is made from the wood of washbacks, not casks, which never had contact with whisky, and which are thoroughly cleaned after each batch of wort/wash anyway.

Now, your belly warming the back of the mandolin, that's a whole another story, of course ;)

[dang]

I skimmed the 5 pages of this thread so far and have yet to see anyone mention this quote from Thile during the Chris Thile in London interview (http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001436.shtml) by Dan Beimborn:

Chris Thile: Right! No, not so much! It's a beautiful action. The more I play it, the more low end comes out. Anyone who tells you that a mandolin doesn't change as you play it has no idea what they are talking about.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

An instrument with an increasing sound output should thereby draw increasing power from the device. This corresponds to the fact that a louder instrument has less sustain, because the pick energy is drained more quickly.
Unfortunately, Bertram, it's not that simple. And, of course, my humble try at summarizing Reumont's studies falls short of a thorough explanation. I should have added that it's not mainly about overall volume, but rather about raising certain frequencies. As Reumont's dedamping is, indeed, scientific, that is on paper and even backed-up by a federal institute, it should be easy to defeat the whole thing. Whether it's "increasing sound" or not, after the treatment, the instrument behaves measurably different. Better, louder? I didn't say that - although, lots of professional musicians seem to think so.

[Bertram Henze]

it's not mainly about overall volume, but rather about raising certain frequencies.

Ok, I read my own goals into the whole matter, apparently (as an ITM session player, overall volume is first to me, because if nobody hears your playing the exact spectrum does not matter either).
It would be too late for me to try any such device on my OM now, because after 10+ years of frequent and hard playing any such changes should be over.

[ralph johansson]

Finally we're getting around to essentials. As long as people discuss "sound" we're getting nowhere; it's not only subejctive but relative. One's impression of sound depends a lot on the circumstances, e.g., what you heard just before. That's one reason I distrust these
blindfold tests. My guitars never sound as deep and complex as when I've been away from them for a couple of weeks. And, of course, the effect wears off after an hour or so.

So it's really about properties, frequency response patterns, rise time, etc.. These things are important to the player - a more responsive instrument inspires better music - but hardly registered by the casual listener.

[Bertram Henze]

This discussion feels a bit like a cooking show on TV - I cant smell or taste anything. Instead, I sit, hearing people talk about fine intricate cuisine and expensive wines, maunching my slice of pizza and guzzling my beer, and wondering what I am missing out on or if I just haven't understood that smell and taste is not really what the show is all about. :cool:

[ccravens]

Anyone who tells you that a mandolin doesn't change as you play it has no idea what they are talking about.

Thile? Please, he's no scientist.

Give me scientific-looking charts and graphs any day of the week!

[AlanN]

No scientific data here, but I have had an early 60's A-40 since 1978. Cheap end, mahogany back, but nonetheless, I think the bark has grown over 35 years of playing it. And I always dug the neck on that little feller.

[bjewell]

Here's a novel test. Pretend you are a musician. A m-u-s-i-c-i-a-n... you know people who manipulate sound for a certain effect. They have great ears. Now play the instrument of your choice for a while and notice if anything changes in the sound you are creating. You can also try this with any new instrument you may have purchased. The trick is to listen. That's why you have ears and if someone says they need so-called scientific proof tell them to hire a musician... sheesh.

[dang]

Thile? Please, he's no scientist.

Give me scientific-looking charts and graphs any day of the week!

I have a masters and a doctorate, not to diss charts or graphs (they hold a special place in my heart) but you can make those say anything you want... but a Thile endorsement you can take to the bank. Literally. Even if what he says is wrong, the public will buy it.

[palosfv3]

Well after my last post , maybe a serious question and statement . All the discussion centers around the changes of sound in a mandolin and the theories and studies done about this . Yet no one has mentioned the individual variables of human hearing . Since hearing is what we are using to measure the sound . Why has it been left out of the discussion ? Once hearing is figured in the equation everything becomes more clouded.






109385






I just couldn't help it .:)

[Tobin]

There is no doubt that there is a change in the physical properties of several materials used in the construction of the mandolin. The real question is whether these changes result in an audible change and if so, whether this change represents an improvement. In most mechanical systems, ageing represents a decrease in performance.....scotch and wine are not mechanical systems.
A "decrease in performance" must necessarily rely upon the definition of performance. In most mechanical systems, performance is related to efficiency, power output, or other measurements. In mandolins, one might look at volume as a measurement, but "tone" is a completely different ball of wax, and may indeed depend upon other facets of performance being reduced. Much like my previous example of a well-fitting hat, or a pair of boots. As the boots are worn repeatedly, the leather and other components will stretch and deform, losing their stiffness (i.e. reduction in "performance" from their initial specifications), and the boots will mold themselves to the wearer's feet. If one were to compare a well-worn boot to a new boot, and judge it solely on "performance", the used boot would likely be viewed as having a decrease in performance. But for the person who wears it, it looks better and feels better than a new boot.

That was probably a crude example, but sometimes a decrease in performance is the key to an increase in desirability to the user. Some products are meant to improve as they get worn-in, if we take the word "improve" to mean that they gain desirable properties for their intended use. I think mandolins fall into this category.

[G7MOF]

Has anyone thought, it could be the strings settling down and not the mandolin woods?

[OldSausage]

Well after my last post , maybe a serious question and statement . All the discussion centers around the changes of sound in a mandolin and the theories and studies done about this . Yet no one has mentioned the individual variables of human hearing . Since hearing is what we are using to measure the sound . Why has it been left out of the discussion ? Once hearing is figured in the equation everything becomes more clouded.

109385

I just couldn't help it .:)

Because if this discussion is about science, the sciences involved are anthropology and psychology.

[Tobin]

Has anyone thought, it could be the strings settling down and not the mandolin woods?
Strings getting played in does have a huge effect on tone. But that's a regular cyclical change, and doesn't relate to the overall change in tone that lasts beyond each string change.

[ccravens]

Yet no one has mentioned the individual variables of human hearing . Since hearing is what we are using to measure the sound . Why has it been left out of the discussion ? Once hearing is figured in the equation everything becomes more clouded.



Excellent point. Also throw in the fact that hearing changes as we age, esp. in the upper frequency department.

Which could be one explanation for MAS.


Too bad my hearing is not such that a Kentucky sounds like a Loar.

[Pasha Alden]

As for opening up or not, I guess woods can change somewhat due to age. As for the player and the mandolin they also need to find each other. Though I found with my Jbovier it seems to open up as far as tone and volume go. I would imagine that time and change in wood could have an impact on the sound and contribute to some change. As for opening up? Well it seems to be a very widely speculated phenomenon, however, many report this to be true.

Happy playing

Vanillamandolin

[Petrus]

Thanks to every one for their insight. As a newbie I had no idea what a tired subject this was nor the controversy it stirs. I was simply asking if any one knew of any scientific studies to confirm what I so often hear. After reading everyone's take on this subject, I will stick with "myth" since I need everything proven by science to make me a believer. I just have to contribute the increased volume on my Collings to my pick selection or to the fact that I may be playing it differently than when I first got it. So since this is such a tired subject, please let us put it to rest. If it continues it will not be on my behalf.

Entropy and neurons, man ... entropy and neurons.

I didn't realize it was an over-hashed topic either. I find it interesting, especially when you get into the details of specifically how to get the instrument's sound to change over time in a way that you want it to. Controlling it, that is. (Notice that I'm using the phrase "sound change over time" rather than "opening up.") I haven't heard people speak much about specific techniques to deliberately cause this change in a controlled way (other than just playing the hell out of it and mechanical alterations.)

[ccravens]

I haven't heard people speak much about specific techniques to deliberately cause this change in a controlled way (other than just playing the hell out of it and mechanical alterations.)

Also much-hashed topics. Three of the most popular (besides playing the heck out of it):

1. Speakers

2. Tonerite

http://tonerite.com/

http://http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?98180-Get-your-popcorn-out-I-put-a-tonerite-on-my-new-Mix-Carbon-Fiber&highlight=tonerite

3. AO1

http://alchemyacousticlabs.com/tag/ao1-process/

Warning: over 40 pages of posts - http://collingsforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/94760485/m/148108822/p/1

[MikeEdgerton]

... Yet no one has mentioned the individual variables of human hearing . Since hearing is what we are using to measure the sound . Why has it been left out of the discussion ? Once hearing is figured in the equation everything becomes more clouded.

See message #83.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

[QUOTE=palosfv3;1222555]Well after my last post , maybe a serious question and statement . All the discussion centers around the changes of sound in a mandolin and the theories and studies done about this . Yet no one has mentioned the individual variables of human hearing . Since hearing is what we are using to measure the sound . Why has it been left out of the discussion ? Once hearing is figured in the equation everything becomes more clouded.

I'm not sure, if I understood you. Nobody questioned the individual variables of hearing. The OP questioned the "opening-up" phenomenon in a mandolin. He didn't even question that many people believe that mandolins actually do "open up". If we were able to find hundreds of seasoned players (of an acoustic string instrument), who agree that a well-played instrument is a different instrument, we might as well accept this empirical evidence as "truth"; it would be already scientific. What's wrong with going beyond that, thinking about the physics behind the phenomenon and forming a theory to mimic this "truth"? Dedamping is a logical step from that, and not even a big one, just nuts and bolts. Now "vintage tone" (see Tone Rite website) and aging is a different matter. That's part of the magic in our beloved mandolin... :popcorn:

[mandolirius]

Because if this discussion is about science, the sciences involved are anthropology and psychology.

Niether of which is actually "science".

[Jim Adwell]

If we were able to find hundreds of seasoned players (of an acoustic string instrument), who agree that a well-played instrument is a different instrument, we might as well accept this empirical evidence as "truth"; it would be already scientific.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

Fan death is death supposedly caused by sleeping in a closed room containing a running electric fan. There are no verified cases of the alleged phenomenon, but it remains a widely believed urban legend in South Korea.

People believe all sorts of things that aren't true. Whatever gets you through the night, I guess.

Anecdotes are anecdotes and collectively they do not add up to data.

[theCOOP]

I dunno. Lots of reading there.

I'm more apt to believe that any wooden thing is going to be a little different today than it is tomorrow. Even a piece of lumber or some split firewood will be a little different tomorrow than it is today and it esn't under thesame stresses that a stringed instrument is.

As such, any thing you build out of wood is going to be a little different tomorrow than it is today. A typical mandolin is built with what, 2-3 different types of wood? All of which absorb and react to moisture/humidity at different rates and react to hot/cold differently.

So I guess I'd suggest that all in all, the instrument, if anything, would be 'looser'. If this is the case, would one expect this to result in better tonal quality or poorer?

[theCOOP]

And by "looser" I guess I meant relaxed.

I haven't read up on the building of a mandolin in a while but I believe the head block (?) and heel block are hard woods? And given maple or other hardwood back and sides, and whatever the purfling (?) is made of... I dunno. But if these are all hardwoods, couldn't we conceive that the edges of the top and bottom plate are more stable over time than the middle (especially given the tone bars are soft wood) and that over time the middle portion of the top plate or sound board, at least where the bridge sits would be more susceptable to humidity, heat/cold, and vibration and therefore be more relaxed? Couldn't we then also conceive that being more relaxed, it would, over time, be more sensitive to the vibration of the strings and therefore offer better tone, or at least, greater volume?

[Keith Newell]

Just in the short bit of this film I could hear this instrument open up http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?100682-3D-Printed-violin-the-possibilities-are-endless I'm thinking they could make a tonerite by the same process and thus get a match made in heaven.
Keith

[chukarwalker]

It's all a bunch of speculation overlain by a belief system. For the vast majority instruments are recreational, so if folks think their favorite little pal is getting better with age, good on them. Why spoil the fun? To me anyway it doesn't matter, the thing sounds good or it doesn't.

[mandocaster]

There is a lot of binary thinking on this thread. Mandolins open up or they don't. They sound good or they don't. It is personally hard for me to believe that anyone who has played a lot of instruments for years after being new hasn't observed the phenomenon, but I guess it is possible. That person could then say "I haven't noticed it". I don't think every mandolin opens up to the same degree, and some probably don't open up much at all. A change in a particular frequency range might not change the measurable volume much, but it might make the mando cut through the mix of a particular ensemble better. As mentioned before, setup has a large impact on the sound. and string gauge, alloy, pick material and thickness, and right hand technique over all.

[Jeff Hildreth]

Opening up is a myth originated by instrujment dealers.

No offence meant nor Am I trageting the dealers who have posted here who fall in line.. oh my yes, instuments open up.

When violins are strung up, adjustments are made which cannot be made on guitars. Different animal.

And sure Strads and Guarneris and Amatis and D(e)a Salos (sp) and Ballestrieris etc all opened up after replacing the necks with longer ones and a higher angle, different sound posts and bass bars and in many cases new components and tops. I guranatee they did not sound that way new.. though I wasn't there... no Tone rite could do that.

Opening up is not an event.. it is not satori. It has a lot to do with the player getting used to the instrument and learning how to play that individual instrument.

Opening up is a belief not a fact.

Some will say it's twue , it's twue... no it ain't.. truth is an individual interpretation of the facts ( assuming there are any but in the case of Breaking in, it's all anecdotal with the exception of the left brain guys... (the builders of old did not use or need electronic gizzetry to build a decent instrument or attempt to verify and validate questionable info) and does not make it true or a fact for anyone else.

My favorite, and I'll hang my hat on this one, posted by someone else.. and this is the best we can do ? ! :

"I'd say fact, but might not always audible. "

That's alllllllllll folks ! ! Yada yada yada

Oh but wait:

And this may be from the real world ie Elko or Jarbidge or Wells, Wendover,Crescent Valley ? Battle Mtn, Carlin ???

Re: "Opening-up", Myth or Fact?

"It's all a bunch of speculation overlain by a belief system. For the vast majority instruments are recreational, so if folks think their favorite little pal is getting better with age, good on them. Why spoil the fun? To me anyway it doesn't matter, the thing sounds good or it doesn't. "

I recall a fragment from a linguistics class many moons ago, the root word of belief in antiquity means " I wish it to be".

If folks wish it to be... so be it. And so it was.

[mandocaster]

So you have never observed it?

[Bertram Henze]

As mentioned before, setup has a large impact on the sound. and string gauge, alloy, pick material and thickness, and right hand technique over all.

That's one of the main reasons why the waters are so muddy. Often the same players claiming they hear opening up in one thread report how they've tried the grillionth new pick in another, how they tried a different string gauge in yet another, all this while training themselves not to plant the pinkie and while moving to another room for practising in order not to waken their newborn child. Not exactly laboratory conditions.

[ralph johansson]

1) Opening up is a myth originated by instrujment dealers



2) Opening up is not an event.. it is not satori. It has a lot to do with the player getting used to the instrument and learning how to play that individual instrument.

Opening up is a belief not a fact.



3) My favorite, and I'll hang my hat on this one, posted by someone else.. and this is the best we can do ? ! :

"I'd say fact, but might not always audible. "



And where is the science behind those statements? How did you prove them? How do you refute the measurements of Al Carruth and others? (showing, in his words, "broader and taller peaks" in the frequency response patterns, which of course is of great importance to the feel of the instrument).

Your statements aren't even plausible.

1) To the best of my knowledge it's an observation made by musicians, esp. violinists and classical guitarists. A friend long ago asked me about a new guitar, "have you 'played it in' ?".
I didn't understand the question. He then went on to explain some of the strategies that classical guitarists use to achieve better response in critical areas, e.g., near resonant spots. Why would they go to all that trouble if it produced nothing? Variations in response over the range of the instrument is certainly something you can register without even playing the instrument in earnest. On one of my guitars the anti-resonat spot at f on the d string was very prominent in the beginning, It really stuck out when I played a scale through it. It no longer does, and it took about a year before I made that observation.
At the time I had been playing the guitar for 35 years.

Why would dealers invent that kind of "myth"? A costumer in a shop will typically try out a number of instruments in a certain category and price range and base his preference[B] on his impressions. He will simply chose the instrument that feels and performs best. How could any "myth" on opening up change that?

And why do dealers and experts say things like "cedar tops don't mature at all", "the jury is out on Engelmann", "an Adi top will take five years to fully mature". In the latter case, if the costumer tries an Adi-topped guitar and finds it inert, would he buy it against the promise of five years' worth of hard work before it amounts to anything? And who would base a custom order on that kind of premise?

Recently Acoustic Guitar Magazine asked a number of [B]dealers to give their advice to people shopping for a guitar. One piece of advice was: "buy the instrument for what it is now, not against the hopes of 'opening up' ".

I've bought instruments from several dealers and no one, but no one, said anything about "opening up".

2) Adjustment to a new instrument is likely to be instant, otherwise it would hardly occur.
It's certainly not a question of months or years, unless you're a rank beginner.
This is especially true for those of us who switch back and forth between several instruments.

3) Not sure what you are referring to. Theres' too much talk of "sound" and "tone". There is no sound or tone in an instrument, it's produced by the player, on the instrument. Listen to "Tone Poets". We often recognize a player by the stuff he plays, his phrasing, his dynamics, and often enjoy him regardless of instrument. That's the way it should be. But players themselves often are extremely fastidious and, if custom ordering an instrument, bring a lot of ideas and requirements to the builder.

[Petrus]

A few years back we had a member that bought a new budget brand mandolin and then proceeded to go on an on about how he had it standing in the corner of his living room with his stereo speakers blasting music at it for weeks knowing it was going to improve. That fallacy is commonplace and this statement will generate messages from people that will swear it works.

I hope he was blasting bluegrass music at it, so that it would soak up the bluegrass vibrations as opposed to the frequency of some other genre. :D

[Miked]

The world is full of facts that aren't true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions

Thank you, I now understand that Thomas Crapper did not invent the flush toilet.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Without disrespect to those who own instruments that are in the lower price segment like Eastman, Loar, Savannah etc. I´d like to guess that those who do not hear an instrument open up are those who mostly play an instrument like those mentioned, where opening up is hardly noticable.

Without disrespect to those who are truely stonefingered amateurs. When I started out to play an instrument, my playing abilities were so inferior that pulling tone out of an instrument was on the back burner. Would anybody have told me that an instrument opens up I might have laughed in their face. Now that people say that I am not at all a bad musician I pride myself to be able to pull tone out of most any instrument, the lesser the instrument the lesser the tone. And I indeed hear instruments opening up, the lesser the instrument the lesser the opening up.

Without disrespect to people who play a badly set up instrument, I hear an instrument opening up more on an instrument that is set up well.

In the end, I have not read up on the scientific side about opening up. But I feel that some of the statements in this thread do not even touched the fact that an instrument is made out of wood, glue, oil, color pigments, metal etc. All those materials change over time, glue dries out, wood ages, varnish settles etc. That alone would mean to me that a change of the instruments tone is indicated. Let´s call that ageing. Aditionally I think that leaving an unplayed instrument sit for 5 years and having an instrument played hard for 5 years indicates that the vibration of the wood causes a change in the instrument. When you´ll pick up the instrument that has sat for 5 years and play it, I think that "bringing it up to its potential" will take a while, whereas the played in instrument will not take a lot of time to get into gear. I know that Ronnie McCoury´s Lloyd Loar was uncirculated and has spent a lot of time "in a closet". I heard it from a pro that it sounded sleepy and it woke up after some playing.

That does not prove anything but I made my point.

[TheArimathean]

I can't help but think that one of the key factors is the player - just like you occasionally have good days and bad days (as far as technique is concerned) - it seems to me very likely that there are small physiological changes that occur in the player without his/her notice which could be mis-interpreted as the instrument itself opening up.

Of course, I have no scientific evidence to prove this, so it's just as free to interpretation as most of the claims already made here, but it makes sense to me.

[Jim Adwell]

That mando is pretty nice looking,
But it doesn't sound so good to play.
That mando is really nice looking,
But it changes from day to day.
I'd like to play it til it opens right up
But I gotta get a belly full of wine.
That mando sure is a really great looker,
Some day I'm gonna make it mine, oh yeah,
Some day I'm gonna make it mine.

By me, with apologies to Sir Paul

[Mark Wilson]

That does not prove anything but I made my point.Fun read. Didn't know "opening up?" was nearly a third rail topic amongst musicians :)

I've no doubt folks have experienced "opening up" of acoustic instruments. Like it has been said - it's a wooden thing - bound to change somehow. I kinda doubt I would trust it fully should I suspect one of my instruments had had a 'opening up'.

I was mixing late one night and fine tuning the eq on a guitar solo. Waiting a bit after each slight tweak of the eq I could without question detect the faint nuance of change in the target frequency's response. This went on towards perfection until I noticed the bypass active on the eq for that channel. The changes I heard were real at the time and that is also a fact that doesn't prove anything.

[OldSausage]

I was mixing late one night and fine tuning the eq on a guitar solo. Waiting a bit after each slight tweak of the eq I could without question detect the faint nuance of change in the target frequency's response. This went on towards perfection until I noticed the bypass active on the eq for that channel. The changes I heard were real at the time and that is also a fact that doesn't prove anything.

I've had similar experiences, it is always sobering.

[Larry Simonson]

Lots of testimony on "opening up" but hardly any on "closing up", therefore myth. With such a huge sample of instruments one might expect that the changes in wood, glue etc would not always be in the direction of making the instrument better. ????

[mandocaster]

It is particularly difficult to prove a negative. One has to assert that everyone who has observed "opening up" (including many of the worlds greatest players) is deluded or simply mistaken. This assertion is made without hearing every instrument over time. If one is of the radical "opening up is a myth" wing of the mandolin party one must believe that there has never been a mandolin ever that has improved with age. That's mighty big talk.

[mrmando]

It all depends on which bird's entrails you read.

[Bertram Henze]

I was mixing late one night and fine tuning the eq on a guitar solo. Waiting a bit after each slight tweak of the eq I could without question detect the faint nuance of change in the target frequency's response. This went on towards perfection until I noticed the bypass active on the eq for that channel. The changes I heard were real at the time and that is also a fact that doesn't prove anything.

Reminds me of the time I ordered an ultrasonic tweeter to drive the mice out of my attic. From the day the device was delivered I never again heard any mice in the house - and I hadn't even switched it on!

[Petrus]

Lots of testimony on "opening up" but hardly any on "closing up", therefore myth. With such a huge sample of instruments one might expect that the changes in wood, glue etc would not always be in the direction of making the instrument better. ????

I thought of this too ... it might well be that some instruments do open up in a negative way, sounding worse over time. Maybe we don't hear about them too much because they tend to get put away, or physically altered (restrung, new bridge, etc.) to compensate.

[Petrus]

Fun read. Didn't know "opening up?" was nearly a third rail topic amongst musicians :)

Personally I find it a fascinating topic, like many others in the big world of audiophiles. Like you, I don't see any reason for people to get irritated about it though. I would never argue that it's perfectly reliable or predictable, that it's always for the better, that every instrument has equal possibility of opening up, or that every player would notice it if it did.


I was mixing late one night and fine tuning the eq on a guitar solo. Waiting a bit after each slight tweak of the eq I could without question detect the faint nuance of change in the target frequency's response. This went on towards perfection until I noticed the bypass active on the eq for that channel. The changes I heard were real at the time and that is also a fact that doesn't prove anything.

No electrical equipment is perfect, nor is the electricity source ever 100% stable all the time. Slight variations in house voltage, glitches in the capacitators inside something, heating of the wires, etc. can cause changes one way or the other on a moment's notice (this is why we have surge protectors for computers ...)

[Petrus]

Reminds me of the time I ordered an ultrasonic tweeter to drive the mice out of my attic. From the day the device was delivered I never again heard any mice in the house - and I hadn't even switched it on!

Obviously, the mice saw the tweeter and decided to get the hell out of Dodge before you turned it on. :grin:

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

I've now come to the conclusion that many folks here simply dont recognize the phenomenon of opening up because so much time is spent on the cafe stroking egos and debating the scientific merits of whatever as opposed to actually practicing and playing mandolin?

It aint scientific, its apparent that some are spending more time on the cafe than playing in their mandolins. If they did, they'd notice it more and it wouldnt be such a touchy debate everytime it comes up. Poor mandolins just wanna be played and broken in but alas, once again, gazing, neglected from the stand in the corner of the room, another owner begins their daily practice routine on the cafe while their mandolins wilt, never to be really played enough to ever experience their full potential.....sad indeed!

Spend more time actually playing your mandolins and experience it for yourself rather than debating it, then you'd hear it instead of be wondering about it.

[fatt-dad]

It's not our egos! Bad form! It's a very subjective area of "science." Don't fault the discussion!

f-d

[pheffernan]

There is a certain amount of irony in this statement being expressed by someone who has amassed 232 posts since May, many of them describing the many years spent without playing the mandolin.

[Tom Coletti]

While I'm a huge advocate for the "less cluck, more pluck" lifestyle--probably why many top players don't use the Cafe and I'm such a godawful player in comparison--but I can only see bad things happening in this thread now that it's veering into personal accusations.

--Tom

[mandocaster]

While I'm a huge advocate for the "less cluck, more pluck" lifestyle--probably why many top players don't use the Cafe and I'm such a godawful player in comparison--but I can only see bad things happening in this thread now that it's veering into personal accusations.

--Tom

Agreed. Time to move to a happy, non emotional topic. I think I'm going to go to the Bay Area Bluegrass Association jam tonight in League City, Texas. I haven't been in a couple of years and it's always lots of fun.

[Polecat]

I have heard that Thorazine is very effective for treating acrimony.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Thats right I havent owned a mandolin in years....I have one now but not in my immediate possesion, but I will after Thanksgiving, upon which I plan on really hittin it hard here after I get it and bring it back......its been a long time

[Stephen Perry]

Lots of testimony on "opening up" but hardly any on "closing up", therefore myth. With such a huge sample of instruments one might expect that the changes in wood, glue etc would not always be in the direction of making the instrument better. ????

First, let me distinguish something I can call "warming up" at the beginning of a session, which isn't all the player warming up. This is pretty obvious. Helps to have a shop where others are playing, try something, have the customer play it a while, try it again. Very clear waking up.

"Opening up" gets a bit hard to describe, as all sound, but getting "better" is pretty subjective. De-damping, whatever. What folks are generally talking about.

Then there's tell of "playing out." - something I have heard and seen fixed in guitars. What was crisp turns to soggy. I am not familiar with this in archtop instruments. Perhaps I missed it, or it takes a long time. Violins do fine, when properly made, for at least a few hundred years.

I've also heard instruments I didn't particularly like that changed over time. I still didn't like those instruments.

[Miked]

On the "closing up" side of the issue, I was getting a little disappointed this summer with the tone of my mandolin. I was playing the heck out of it, but it just wasn't sounding that strong and lacked the resonance that I was used to. A friend that I jam with even commented that he wasn't hearing me as well. It was definitely going the wrong direction.

It finally dawned on me that the relative humidity was the culprit. I bought some DampRid and made a little moisture absorber that I kept in the case. I got the humidity down to 50% and that made a significant difference in volume and resonance.

[Gplayer]

Humidity is always a problem here in Florida...especially with rosewood guitars. I keep a dehumidifier going pretty much all year long. I have to dump it about every 2-3 days.

[roysboy]

Reminds me of the time I ordered an ultrasonic tweeter to drive the mice out of my attic. From the day the device was delivered I never again heard any mice in the house - and I hadn't even switched it on!

That's probly cuz it was a Gilchrist Ultrasonic Tweeter . You don't have to turn them on..they sound great in the case .

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Opening up is a myth originated by instrujment dealers.

No offence meant nor Am I trageting the dealers who have posted here who fall in line.. oh my yes, instuments open up.

When violins are strung up, adjustments are made which cannot be made on guitars. Different animal.

And sure Strads and Guarneris and Amatis and D(e)a Salos (sp) and Ballestrieris etc all opened up after replacing the necks with longer ones and a higher angle, different sound posts and bass bars and in many cases new components and tops. I guranatee they did not sound that way new.. though I wasn't there... no Tone rite could do that.

Opening up is not an event.. it is not satori. It has a lot to do with the player getting used to the instrument and learning how to play that individual instrument.

Opening up is a belief not a fact.

Some will say it's twue , it's twue... no it ain't.. truth is an individual interpretation of the facts ( assuming there are any but in the case of Breaking in, it's all anecdotal with the exception of the left brain guys... (the builders of old did not use or need electronic gizzetry to build a decent instrument or attempt to verify and validate questionable info) and does not make it true or a fact for anyone else.

My favorite, and I'll hang my hat on this one, posted by someone else.. and this is the best we can do ? ! :

"I'd say fact, but might not always audible. "

That's alllllllllll folks ! ! Yada yada yada

Oh but wait:

And this may be from the real world ie Elko or Jarbidge or Wells, Wendover,Crescent Valley ? Battle Mtn, Carlin ???

Re: "Opening-up", Myth or Fact?

"It's all a bunch of speculation overlain by a belief system. For the vast majority instruments are recreational, so if folks think their favorite little pal is getting better with age, good on them. Why spoil the fun? To me anyway it doesn't matter, the thing sounds good or it doesn't. "

I recall a fragment from a linguistics class many moons ago, the root word of belief in antiquity means " I wish it to be".

If folks wish it to be... so be it. And so it was.

If some people really think that new instruments keep their sound quality till they are thrown away after years of use without any change, so be it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Aging? Build an instrument with old wood, and you still don't have an instrument with the mature sound we find and love in so many well-played Loars.
By "fact, but not always audible" I meant that differences in vibration patterns in string instruments can easily be measured after a dedamping treatment, very obvious with new instruments, a little less with older instruments. Whether each of us players hears that difference - especially in older instruments - is a different question. Some people, even good players, just haven't developed accurate hearing. As hard as it is to admit, sometimes things can be measured before everybody senses them.
And Jeff, I agree with you that the frequent "trust me, it will open up" claimed by many dealers is misleading often enough, because opening-up won't ever turn a frog into a prince.

[Mike Bunting]

There is a certain amount of irony in this statement being expressed by someone who has amassed 232 posts since May, many of them describing the many years spent without playing the mandolin.

I'm not expressing an opinion on the post inquestion one way or another, but ad hominem arguments are never useful.

[pheffernan]

I'm not expressing an opinion on the post inquestion one way or another, but ad hominem arguments are never useful.

There was no ad hominem attack made or implied, only a comment on the irony of someone who hasn't been playing the mandolin criticizing people for not playing their mandolins.

[bratsche]

It finally dawned on me that the relative humidity was the culprit. I bought some DampRid and made a little moisture absorber that I kept in the case. I got the humidity down to 50% and that made a significant difference in volume and resonance.


Humidity is always a problem here in Florida...especially with rosewood guitars. I keep a dehumidifier going pretty much all year long. I have to dump it about every 2-3 days.

Strange... I'm in Florida, too... but I absolutely LOVE what the high +/-70% humidity does for my instruments (both kinds, plucked and bowed ones). I've gotten ones shipped from drier climes, and they've all improved in the first week or so (nothing to do with waking or opening up, as it's always been a relatively fast and one-time occurrence, not at all related to playing time). We do have a dehumidifier as well as an air purifier for the bedroom, because of our allergies, but I wouldn't even want to dehumidify the instrument room, since its 'inhabitants' take so well to the damp air!

Back to the topic of the thread: The one time in my life I surely most would have liked to hear the "opening up" of an instrument take place, it just didn't. This was the only truly unplayed instrument I ever bought (and ironically, the most expensive one, because it was from a dealer). Certainly it was the best candidate for me to convince myself to believe it would, or had, opened up, with all that I had invested in it. I played the you-know-what out of it for two years, and then had my biggest critic, a former teacher, listen to it a second time (the first being after I'd just bought it), and he confirmed what I suspected... that it really didn't sound noticeably different after two years. Not that it was ever a "frog" or anything (it was Italian, in fact, not French - yuk, yuk!) but I expected better for my money (and later found it, two times, both happily for far less money!)

The dealer's comments assuring me that it needed to be "opened up" through playing were a factor in my initial purchase, as was the fact that I was on a tight schedule traveling, and needed a viola, as I didn't have one, and there were none for sale then near where I was living in Spain. It was the best one I could find for what I could afford in three days visiting dealers in London, so I bought it. I ended up selling it in the States some years later when I'd moved back, and fortunately did manage to recoup my money. In the meantime, a luthier who looked at it told me he could "open it up" for me, by tinkering with the graduations... but he wanted another $2K for that, and I said "no thanks!"

So this non-experience of "opening up" in part explains my skepticism on the subject. As for "waking up", I've never had firsthand experience that either, personally (with an instrument, that is. With myself, for sure, absolutely - that happens with frequency!)

bratsche

[Dave Cohen]

Tasting mandolins is similar to tasting wine. In addition to the murkiness of subjective waters, it can be difficult for non-scientists to dintinguish science from psuedoscience. There are, however, a few peer-reviewed works on this subject. Following are two. I suggest also looking at the references therein:

(1) Hutchins, C.; "A measureable effect of long-term playing on violin family instruments", CAS Journal, Vol.3, No. 5 (Series II), pp 38-40 (May, 1998).

(2) Ling,, D., and Killion, M., "New versus old; Playing-in instruments through vibratory transmission of music to the bridge", CAS Journal, Vol. 3, No. 3 (Series II), pp 42-44 (May, 1997).

http://www.Cohenmando.com/

[Bernie Daniel]

I've now come to the conclusion that many folks here simply dont recognize the phenomenon of opening up because so much time is spent on the cafe stroking egos and debating the scientific merits of whatever as opposed to actually practicing and playing mandolin?

It aint scientific, its apparent that some are spending more time on the cafe than playing in their mandolins. If they did, they'd notice it more and it wouldnt be such a touchy debate everytime it comes up. Poor mandolins just wanna be played and broken in but alas, once again, gazing, neglected from the stand in the corner of the room, another owner begins their daily practice routine on the cafe while their mandolins wilt, never to be really played enough to ever experience their full potential.....sad indeed!

Spend more time actually playing your mandolins and experience it for yourself rather than debating it, then you'd hear it instead of be wondering about it.

You may have come to that conclusion -- but of course you have no solid evidence for it. So it sounds like more opinion to me. And I am sure some might have even appreciated the free advice!

[Jeff Hildreth]

"And where is the science behind those statements?"

It is not up to me to defend the obvious that only a few select self appointed gurus defend "opening up" with non sensical, non applicable, indefensible "science" experiments that are not reflective of the real world.

I will repeat: instrument makers and hustlers are the source of the myth of "opening up"

Segovia with over 70 years of expereince, real, tangible hands on experience, not pseudo science, said that guitars wear out and collapse and die of old age. He thought opening up to be a non issue, doesn't exist. Quite the contrary.

I trust a "mechanic" more than an "engineer".

It's BS. It is a marketing tool.

Players did not invent "opening up".

Opening up is a religion.. and I'll stop here as I can give examples that would violate forum rules.

[mandocaster]

"instrument makers and hustlers"

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than an instrument makers shop:)

I tried not to reply, but I couldn't help it. I've never been a part of a few select self-appointed gurus before. It feels kind of good.

[Bertram Henze]

I trust a "mechanic" more than an "engineer".

I'd trust both of them. It takes a diploma in physics to be a real self-appointed guru ;)

[Petrus]

Segovia with over 70 years of expereince, real, tangible hands on experience, not pseudo science, said that guitars wear out and collapse and die of old age. He thought opening up to be a non issue, doesn't exist. Quite the contrary.

Maybe we've got a semantics issue going on here. What Segovia considered "wearing out" might be considered by some players to be opening up. Maybe some people like some of the consequences of an old machine "wearing out," and call it "opening up." Again, we're back to the subjective nature of the phenomenon. I mentioned earlier that "opening up" can be good or bad depending on various factors. If it ages badly, a player will tend to put the instrument away or alter it mechanically to compensate, and might not consider this to be a proper "opening up." If it ages well, we may say that it "opened up."

Wines and whiskeys age too, and some people may or may not like the results; sometimes they age badly to the point of undrinkability. To some people, cheese is just rotten milk.

[ralph johansson]

Just in the short bit of this film I could hear this instrument open up http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?100682-3D-Printed-violin-the-possibilities-are-endless I'm thinking they could make a tonerite by the same process and thus get a match made in heaven.
Keith

I haven't gone into the Tonerite business before. I've been a bit skeptical (but not emotional, like some other people) to that device. I believe (though not religiously) in the idea that my instruments become what I play on them.

However, recently there was a Tonerite discussion on another forum. One of the members is a very respected classical builder (and a competent player); like many builders he has is own, secret, "intonation" process, designed to increase response and even out the response pattern. You cannot make resonances go away, but you can modify, temper, and even move them, to some extent. Classical polayers tend to be very sensitive in that area. He has recently bought a Tonerite device and claims it helps, mostly in the bass (which makes sense to me). He uses it as part of his intonation process, but it doesn't replace it. If he has the ears and instruments to determine the effects of his tweaking, he certainly has the ears and instruments to determine the effects of Toneriting.

But I will not get one. Each of my instruments has a character of its own, and several of them have made me a bit fastidious - I'm rarely impressed by new instruments. I tend to play some of them more than the others; two of them have matured quite a bit, the rest -
maybe. The axe that probably progressed the most was the best even when new. It's not about alchemy, turning **** into gold.

[ralph johansson]

Maybe we've got a semantics issue going on here. What Segovia considered "wearing out" might be considered by some players to be opening up. Maybe some people like some of the consequences of an old machine "wearing out," and call it "opening up." Again, we're back to the subjective nature of the phenomenon. I mentioned earlier that "opening up" can be good or bad depending on various factors. If it ages badly, a player will tend to put the instrument away or alter it mechanically to compensate, and might not consider this to be a proper "opening up." If it ages well, we may say that it "opened up."

Wines and whiskeys age too, and some people may or may not like the results; sometimes they age badly to the point of undrinkability. To some people, cheese is just rotten milk.

A commonly held theory is that first there's maturing, then there's aging. Which is which is relative. Also, several experts warn against guitars that appear very bassy and loose when new - they may turn into mud. Certainly, in my experience, there is a certain deepening, or even darkening of sound character, over the years, and ultimately I sold my oldest guitar because it no longer appealed to me. But that's flattop guitars. I don't think anything like that will happen in mandolins, at least I believe the process is much slower.

[ralph johansson]

"instrument makers and hustlers"

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than an instrument makers shop:)

I tried not to reply, but I couldn't help it. I've never been a part of a few select self-appointed gurus before. It feels kind of good.

Indeed. Also it feels good to see someone shouting and resorting to invective instead of responding constructively to critical questions - at least I'm above that kind of thing.

Interestingly, those who get most emotional about this topic are the skeptics. Their thesis is an absolute: "there is no such thing" as opposed to the more humble "it does happen, no one quite knows how or why, and in individual cases it cannot be predicted".

What about the marketing thing? In an earlier post I quoted a panel of prominent dealers saying "do NOT buy an instrument against hopes of 'opening up' ". I've looked at the web pages of Elderly Instruments, Gruhn, and others and nowhere do I see mention of "opening up" as a sales argument. Nor have I seen anything like it in ads.

I'm assuming that someone shopping for a mandolin will ultimately buy one. I also assume that if he buys through a dealer, or several dealers, he will test several makes and models against each other, comparing their properties. Has anyone heard of a dealer
saying, "you may think mandolin A is inferior to mandolin B, but just wait till it opens up"? Unlike mandolin B?

Bill Collings has been quoted as saying that it takes an Adi top 5 years to fully mature. Now, if someone was trying a Collings D1A in a shop and it had a very inert feel to it, would he buy that guitar? And would anyone custom order a D1A on that premise?


I've bought several instruments through American dealers and no one used "opening up" as a sales argument. Only once have I heard that, and the dealer wasn't even trying to sell anything. I was testing a number of Martin dreads in a shop and found that they were all set up very lightly, with low action, almost no break angle, and with very thin strings - presuimably to make them more attractive to those coming from the electric guitar. They were extremely weaksounding. When I remarked on this the dealer graciously suggested that my ears were stuffed with cotton and that guitars have to be "played in"! In other words, he was an idiot - even anyone with limited experience of guitars would know that new Martins are much louder than that. But that's the only instance that I know of.

[ralph johansson]

Lots of testimony on "opening up" but hardly any on "closing up", therefore myth. With such a huge sample of instruments one might expect that the changes in wood, glue etc would not always be in the direction of making the instrument better. ????

Well, in post #78 I did mention Ibanez mandolins. That was an observation made independently by several people, and an explanation was offered. So a reasonable question would be what properties or features in an instrument determine its future life. Generally it's assumed that lightly built and lightly finished quality instruments will at least not become duller or less responsive over the years, if played and cared for. Some mandolins that I've played are astonishingly weak, for reasons I've never cared to investigate, and I don't think anyone has proposed that these instruments will turn into monsters within a few years.

[Stephen Perry]

My particular method of exploiting opening up has been to give a new fiddle to someone for a year without charge to play the daylights out of it. Always works!

A key aspect of tone that gets shoved a side in these types of discussions is noise. Noise is one of the things that usually seems to play out pretty quickly, in a few years, and may well be part of what people hear in the "opening up" vein. I really like reducing noise in instruments.

[brunello97]

Tasting mandolins is similar to tasting wine. In addition to the murkiness of subjective waters, it can be difficult for non-scientists to dintinguish science from psuedoscience. There are, however, a few peer-reviewed works on this subject. Following are two. I suggest also looking at the references therein:

(1) Hutchins, C.; "A measureable effect of long-term playing on violin family instruments", CAS Journal, Vol.3, No. 5 (Series II), pp 38-40 (May, 1998).

(2) Ling,, D., and Killion, M., "New versus old; Playing-in instruments through vibratory transmission of music to the bridge", CAS Journal, Vol. 3, No. 3 (Series II), pp 42-44 (May, 1997).

http://www.Cohenmando.com/

Direct links to the cited articles:

(1) (http://purl.stanford.edu/pt039gb0065)

(2) (http://purl.stanford.edu/cm064cs7066)

Mick

[Bernie Daniel]

"And where is the science behind those statements?"

It is not up to me to defend the obvious that only a few select self appointed gurus defend "opening up" with non sensical, non applicable, indefensible "science" experiments that are not reflective of the real world.

I will repeat: instrument makers and hustlers are the source of the myth of "opening up"

Segovia with over 70 years of expereince, real, tangible hands on experience, not pseudo science, said that guitars wear out and collapse and die of old age. He thought opening up to be a non issue, doesn't exist. Quite the contrary.

I trust a "mechanic" more than an "engineer".

It's BS. It is a marketing tool.

Players did not invent "opening up".

Opening up is a religion.. and I'll stop here as I can give examples that would violate forum rules.

I gather that you do not believe that instruments open up then?

Actually I don't either. But I also know many instrument makers and to a person I certainly would not link them with "hustlers" although most of them probably do believe that instruments open up with use.

Your reference to Segovia is interesting. I think that he made this comment in the 1960's at the height of his powers.

Back in grad school days a professor in the biochemistry department who was a classical player mentioned the Segovia opinion one day (circa 1973) when I was showing him my 1961 Hummingbird. Being a classical "purist" he was not much impressed with Gibson and its steel strings.

I argued that for steel string guitars are older ones are considered more desirable with better tone than new ones. He was skeptical about that.

Of course in those days I did believe instruments opened up! :)

But with all due respect to Segovia is there any evidence that classical guitars "wear out"?

Seems akin to saying instruments "open up" to me?

[Bertram Henze]

...is there any evidence that classical guitars "wear out"?

At least this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QzKVp_ut4U) from 1938 didn't, IMHO. Not because I am an expert on classical guitars (which I am not), but because I'd expect this player to know what he likes to play.

[Londy]

I am no expert at all. However, as a musician, I only can say two things: 1) there are far to many variables on this subject to conclude anything even with the studies I have read and 2) a musical instrument is meant to be played!!

We all should be practicing and improving our musical art instead of agonizing century old questions on this forum. Life is short, play longer! :grin: ~o):mandosmiley:

[mandocaster]

We all should be practicing and improving our musical art instead of agonizing century old questions on this forum. Life is short, play longer! :grin: ~o):mandosmiley:

But this would mean the end of the internet!

[yankees1]

I skimmed the 5 pages of this thread so far and have yet to see anyone mention this quote from Thile during the Chris Thile in London interview (http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001436.shtml) by Dan Beimborn:

Chris Thile: Right! No, not so much! It's a beautiful action. The more I play it, e thmore low end comes out. Anyone who tells doesn't you that a mandolin change as you play it has no idea what they are talking about.
I don't doubt Mr. Thile as I'm sure he can hear a difference. But I don't think I can tell a difference ! I would say his ears hear things that I don't !

[OldSausage]

And I assure you, Emperor, only a fool could not see these fine clothes.

[mandocaster]

And I assure you, Emperor, only a fool could not see these fine clothes.

Ah, but is every emperor naked? Are some wearing speedos and others Ugg boots? Are some relying on the advice of instrument builders and other shady characters? Seriously, I don't want to be part of the "every instrument opens up like a tropical flower" club. I know opening up gets overblown, but I think I have personally heard it happen with some of the many instruments I've owned. Someone might think that I'm an idiot, a follower of dealers' suggestions, a dupe, or whatever, but I still believe it often happens. Not always. Not always in a good way. But often.

[Larry Simonson]

Does "opening up" mean a player has finally found the specific technique needed to pull the desired tone from a given instrument?

[OldSausage]

Could be, Mandocaster. Could be, Larry.

The only thing I think we know is that the effect is neither ubiquitous, nor commonly profound. It is consequently difficult to separate from psychological factors, which people have a tendency to underrate.

[roysboy]

Always an interesting topic and this discussion is no exception .

Thought I'd share this .The other day I was playing my several month old mandolin when my son called from the other room and said " That thing is sounding louder ....what'd you do to it ? "

I know, I know ...hard evidence of an instrument 'opening up' is hard to find but this may be as close as we get .

BTW ...I agree with him . I've done nothing critical to it -intonation adjustment - and it IS sounding louder and warmer . I was afraid to suggest that around the Cafe after reading this thread .

[Bernie Daniel]

....Someone might think that I'm an idiot, a follower of dealers' suggestions, a dupe, or whatever, but I still believe it often happens. Not always. Not always in a good way. But often.

Well I for one don't think you are an idiot at all. But I do think it is more likely that the player's EARS open up --not the mandolin. That the player mentally adapts to the sound of the mandolin.

Here is a way to prove it. Take a great mandolin and let one picker play the heck out of it until he/she is sure that it has "opened up".

Then bring in a fresh picker --someone else who does not know that the first player already has just opened the mandolin up.

Let the new picker start playing on the mandolin. Now than new picker should not report that the mandolin "opens up" because the previous player already "opened" it. It can't open up twice in a short time can it?

If the second player also reports that the mandolin opens up for him/her also then I'd say that's a good case for the fact the "opening up" is only in the mind (ears) of the picker. If the second picker does not hear it opening up them maybe it's real! :)

[Londy]

Ah, but is every emperor naked? Are some wearing speedos and others Ugg boots? Are some relying on the advice of instrument builders and other shady characters? Seriously, I don't want to be part of the "every instrument opens up like a tropical flower" club. I know opening up gets overblown, but I think I have personally heard it happen with some of the many instruments I've owned. Someone might think that I'm an idiot, a follower of dealers' suggestions, a dupe, or whatever, but I still believe it often happens. Not always. Not always in a good way. But often.

We all enter the world naked, even emperors! :disbelief:

[mandocaster]

Well I for one don't think you are an idiot at all. But I do think it is more likely that the player's EARS open up --not the mandolin. That the player mentally adapts to the sound of the mandolin.

Here is a way to prove it. Take a great mandolin and let one picker play the heck out of it until he/she is sure that it has "opened up".

Then bring in a fresh picker --someone else who does not know that the first player already has just opened the mandolin up.

Let the new picker start playing on the mandolin. Now than new picker should not report that the mandolin "opens up" because the previous player already "opened" it. It can't open up twice in a short time can it?

If the second player also reports that the mandolin opens up for him/her also then I'd say that's a good case for the fact the "opening up" is only in the mind (ears) of the picker. If the second picker does not hear it opening up them maybe it's real! :)

Somebody said that "waking up" was when an instrument sounds better after a few minutes of playing (what you are referring to). I personally think that has more to do with a player getting warmed up. I'm sure there is more to it, but it doesn't seem very interesting to me. Opening up (if it is an actual phenomenon and not a widely held misconception) in this thread, anyway, refers to changes in an instruments sound over months, years, or decades. Your experiment sounds interesting, though.

[Bernie Daniel]

Somebody said that "waking up" was when an instrument sounds better after a few minutes of playing (what you are referring to). I personally think that has more to do with a player getting warmed up. I'm sure there is more to it, but it doesn't seem very interesting to me. Opening up (if it is an actual phenomenon and not a widely held misconception) in this thread, anyway, refers to changes in an instruments sound over months, years, or decades. Your experiment sounds interesting, though.

Yes I agree that opening up is often associated with longer periods of time - - but I was referring to the comments in post number (gasp!) 179! :)

But the principle holds take any mandolin that is "broken in" or "opened up" from play -- give it to a new player and if after a few weeks they claim it has opened up (AGAIN) I think we could make the case the it is the player who is "opening up" not the mandolin perhaps?

Changes to a mandolin over decades though seem quite problematic to assess.

I had my hearing evaluated every August for the 37 years I worked of the Federal government -- it was a mandated physical related to my work. You should see how my hearing changed (deteriorated) over that time.

And it is more then just points on a audiometer -- I am a student of bird song and at one time knew over 600 species by call or song -- in 1975 when I started work I could easily hear birds with very high vocalizations like Cedar wax wings or Brown creepers -- now it's not certain I will hear those birds unless I am very close to them.