Practice Projects

[Tommcgtx]

Since joining the café, I have been both amazed and intrigued with the building/repair processes. Eventually, I want to build an instrument from scratch, but have absolutely no woodworking experience or tools whatsoever. In the meantime, I'm reading everything I can on wood, finishing, building, etc. I recently obtained the Mandolin Project by Graham McDonald, and Siminoff's Ultimate Bluegrass Construction book through the miracle of inter-library loan, and plan on buying both eventually.

I found a local club here in El Paso (Woodworkers Club of El Paso), and went as a guest to their monthly meeting, and left a member. They have tons of tools, power equipment (belt & disk sanders, band saws, etc.) that can be used any time, and people around regularly to monitor the shop, teach, etc. They are a non-profit, and do a ton of community work, toys for Christmas, etc. Anyway, although I'm not ready to build a mandolin yet, I can start to learn some woodworking technique, how to use equipment, etc., and was wondering if anyone had suggestions for small projects that would teach me some things to prepare for an eventual build. I would also encourage anyone out there thinking about doing the same to seek out a local woodworkers club like this if the expense of larger power tools is making them hesitate.

[carbonpiou]

It's a good idea to manufactur your mandolin ! (sorry for bad writing, i'm french) But if you never worked wood, not to be to you at the end of your disappointments. The stringed-instrument trade is the height of the worker of wood and besides the technical skills, it is essential to have acoustic necessary knowledge.
To buy his instrument in spare parts and to even assemble it oneself, frankly, I do not see the interest. to manufacture its musical instrument, it is also to choose its wood. Not to forget that the most beautiful instrument built with wood of #### will sound like a pan.
Good courage nevertheless. All the manufacturers amateurs - and I belong of it - passed by there. But that the number of lost hours, galleys without end and wasted equipment because one did not want to respect the logic of the things. Start to accustom you to the work of wood with other thing that a mandolin !!!

[OldSausage]

What I found useful was to design and build a toy uke. Calling it a toy stops you worrying too much about how the end product will sound, lets you focus on the construction, and means you can build it from any suitable, available wood. If you build it along the lines of a flat-top mandolin as in Graham's book, you'll get experience with gluing the plates, bending the sides, carving the neck, making the fretboard, dovetail joint and finishing. Maybe a little inlay work. Once you've done that you'll either be ready to give up, or build your first mandolin. Stay skeptical while reading books and Internet sources. I really like Graham's book. Join the Guild of American Luthiers and get their mags and back issues. Allocate plenty of time and money to the project. Kiss your wife and children goodbye.

[Jim Adwell]

And after you become a world-renowned luthier, that toy uke will end up in someone's collection in Japan, in a glass case with a little spotlight over it, and a plaque with your name on it. The owner/collector will proudly show it to his guests at parties, who will ooh and ahh in hushed tones over it. You will be invited to the collector's mansion for tea and sake.

Okay, that won't happen, but you will have had fun making something playable and will have learned a great deal in the process about woodworking and instrument making, and yourself. Go for it, and let the chips fall where they may, literally.

[bmac]

It is probably a good idea to be in the woodworking group... You will develope knowledge of tool usage, safety, etc. and will develope judgement regarding which tools are "must have", which are nice, and which are unnecessary.... But in my opinion the important thing is to develope skills in using hand tools: mallet, chisels, drills hand saws, finishing saws, coping saws, tool sharpening.. clamps and a woodworking vice.

In fact unless you want to own a factory, power tools are very over rated and you can do most of the work with muscle powered tools... especially if you have access to someone with a band saw.... like at your club woodworking shop.

To start with you need a work bench and that is a good beginners project requiring some of the power tools you will have access to in the wood working group..... Although you could get it done with hand tools only. Doesn't have to be fancy but should be bolted together and very sturdy. It would be most functional if it had a woodworking vice as part of it. Having it on lockable wheels is also an advantage. I think you will be in for some good times and valuable learning.

[Jim Garber]

Another route to take might be to get a simple kit like the StewMac Ukulele (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Kits/Ukulele_Kits/Soprano_Ukulele_Kit.html)or Campfire mandolin (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Kits/Mandolin_Kits/Campfire_Mandolin_Kit.html) kit or Don Kawalek's kits (http://donkawalek.com/pages/kits.php). I have heard esp good things about Don and his kits since he offers assistance if you need it. Don also teaches classes on making instruments.

[Tommcgtx]

To start with you need a work bench and that is a good beginners project requiring some of the power tools you will have access to in the wood working group.....

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. As far as a work bench, any suggestions on what a good size would be? I'm going to search on some of the DIY sites to see if I can find plans or instructions for one.

[Timbofood]

I like the idea of doing some basic projects like toys for kids to learn the basic feel for how the tools act. Good community help too.
Sounds like the group is wide scoped as far as what they sound like they want to do.
Toy boats are good too, but, I second the uke project! Start simply.

[Tommcgtx]

I like the idea of doing some basic projects like toys for kids to learn the basic feel for how the tools act. Good community help too.
Sounds like the group is wide scoped as far as what they sound like they want to do.
Toy boats are good too, but, I second the uke project! Start simply.

Oh yeah, they make lots of toys. Last night at the meeting, they had the guy that plays Santa (dressed up with real beard & all) give a presentation on the program. The main beneficiaries are the local boys & girls club, and the lower ranking enlisted soldiers from Ft. Bliss. I saw their shop that was loaded with cars, tanks, planes, rocking horses, bird houses, tops, etc., and it was all pretty amazing to me. The also have a segment of "show & tell" where members show the recent projects they've finished, and explain the techniques & finish involved, and then pass them around. There were plenty of really nice boxes, sculptures, curved band saw boxes with drawers, pens, etc. I think the fact that they do lots of community work, and just the skill & experience of the members that I might draw on were what caused me to go ahead and join.

[Jim Garber]

That sounds like a great starting place to get into woodworking with a supportive community. I think you will do fine there.

[bmac]

The kit idea is, I think a good idea for a beginner... One of the easier kits I believe is the International Violin kit by Saga. I have built a few of these and though they are partially assembled when you receive the kit there is still a lot of custom graduating and adjusting to move it from the raw built stage to a custom finished stage. It can be a really nice looking and sounding instrument. This would give you a functional instrument as you learn your woodworking skills. It normally is used in conjunction with the Siminoff book on building a bluegrass mando. Actually you can build the finished instrument in roughly a week but if you want it to be a realy nice custom built instrument you probably should count on a couple or three weeks. It can be a very rewarding experience. and you will come away with quite a bit of knowledge of construction and how a mando works. You will also begin your aquisition of a few hand tools and clamps.

The Siminoff kit is quite expensive but offers better looking wood and more compex cutting and building experience... You will certainly learn a great deal with this kit but it is much more demanding.

[bmac]

Out of curiosity do you have your own workspace at home? That is important in how big a work bench you will need. They can vary greatly in size and complexity.... I just looked up some work bench prices and Wow!!! they can be expensive. You will save a bundle if you do it yourself. I might add that I have sometimes seen them at used furniture and household stuff stores and household auctions.

Some years ago I found one in an old printing shop and bought it for $15 if I recall.... Solid oak and maple. The same bench today would cost roughly $2000. But I haven't seen any that nice at any price since that time.


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[Tommcgtx]

Out of curiosity do you have your own workspace at home? That is important in how big a work bench you will need. They can vary greatly in size and complexity.... I just looked up some work bench prices and Wow!!! they can be expensive. You will save a bundle if you do it yourself. I might add that I have sometimes seen them at used furniture and household stuff stores and household auctions.

Some years ago I found one in an old printing shop and bought it for $15 if I recall.... Solid oak and maple. The same bench today would cost roughly $2000. But I haven't seen any that nice at any price since that time.


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Well, I have a two car garage, that usually has two cars in it, but there is an area on the side that's about 15'x4', and an area in the fron thats about 10' x4' or so (rough estimation). I would like to build it myself, and have seen some simple plans so far, but any recommendations are appreciated. I found a used solid door for the top on craigslist (if they still have it). A vise was mentioned, and I'm not quite sure what to buy. I just found out too that one of the perks of membership in that local club is discounts at certain tools shops, and wood suppliers (none that carry tonewoods, as far as I know).

[bmac]

If I recall didn'r Gail Hester do some early builds on a small table in a hallway or some other unlikely place? I guess you can use almost any space... It is the power tools which seem to take up a lot of floor space.

[Nevin]

Sounds like a great group. Two kinds of wood work that you would not tend to find in making toys but are important on instruments would be precision wood joints and finishing. If you can find projects that will let you work on these skills you will be ahead of the game.

[Jim Adwell]

If I recall didn'r Gail Hester do some early builds on a small table in a hallway or some other unlikely place? I guess you can use almost any space... It is the power tools which seem to take up a lot of floor space.

I've been making musical instruments and other things in a one car garage. The car still fits in the garage, and I have a small table saw, bandsaw, thickness planer, drill press, and stationary belt sander/disc sander on little carts with casters on them that live against the walls when the car is in the garage. I move the car and roll the carts out to make things. My workbench is another cart with casters. Hand tools, miscellaneous stuff and small power tools are on shelves on the walls. The tool carts have shelves too where other things are stored. Wood gets stacked up against the walls or stored in the carts or on shelves. It works for me. I have a Kia Soul, though. I doubt I could get a bigger car in there and still have room to open the doors and get in and out.

[Marty Jacobson]

Sounds good. Do some fun projects, get a sense for drilling in end grain vs. side grain, sanding, finishing, etc.

But don't spend too long on all that. Compared to building instruments, all the usual scroll-saw intarsia and boxmaking is pretty simple, and spending five years on pen turning won't prepare you for building instruments any more than turning a dozen or so pens and another dozen bowls will.
I like the uke idea.. Start small, keep the pressure low, have fun with it.

[fatt-dad]

(I have little to offer and am not handy with woodworking.)

I used to live next to a dude in Seattle. He was some sort of councilor or such. We were both single and we'd drink beer together. He up and decided to take a class in luthiery. He had a few meetings in a shop and went out to begin. The first things he had to make were all his handtools. He took metal bars, drilled holes, shaped handles and fitted them as knives, scrapers, planes, joiners, binding cutters, etc. He made all those clamps too. I'd just watch and drink beer. He also made his work bench, it may have been 3x5. Can't remember. He made the light-bulb in the pipe for bending. All that stuff. He started with a lap dulcimer, flat-top mandolin, classical guitar and steel string. This all took place in the evenings for at least 2 years. Didn't make an archtop though!

There's a lot of dedication to hand-making instruments.

That's my little evening story.

f-d

[Tommcgtx]

I like the uke idea.. Start small, keep the pressure low, have fun with it.

I think I like that idea also. From what I understand, there is a guitar maker among the group, although I have not spoken to him yet.

[belbein]

[QUOTE=carbonpiou;121999] (sorry for bad writing, i'm french)[/]

That may be the single most quotable line I've ever read on the cafe. I intend to steal it. Though students of literature and history would say a bunch of people argue against your premise: Derrida, Foucault, Levi-Strauss, Ricouer, Proust, Balzac, and on and on.

and I do agree with your advice. Even if you're French.

[belbein]

I've been making musical instruments and other things in a one car garage. The car still fits in the garage, and I have a small table saw, bandsaw, thickness planer, drill press, and stationary belt sander/disc sander on little carts with casters on them that live against the walls when the car is in the garage. I move the car and roll the carts out to make things. My workbench is another cart with casters. Hand tools, miscellaneous stuff and small power tools are on shelves on the walls. The tool carts have shelves too where other things are stored. Wood gets stacked up against the walls or stored in the carts or on shelves. It works for me. I have a Kia Soul, though. I doubt I could get a bigger car in there and still have room to open the doors and get in and out.

i built a 14 1/2 foot sailboat under those same conditions but without power tools. it taught me woodworking, carpentry, fiberglass ... Oh: and to buy a bigger house.

[belbein]

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. As far as a work bench, any suggestions on what a good size would be? I'm going to search on some of the DIY sites to see if I can find plans or instructions for one.

Home depot is currently selling an all wood woodworkers bench that looks pretty good. Its cheaper at this point than making your own. Particularly since this early in the game, you dont know what you need.

[Shelagh Moore]

I work in a small space in a shed on a bench I built myself and using minimal power tools, e.g. dremels and a belt sander. I'm not an builder but do a lot of repair, restoration and set-up work. As you now have access to tools and advice, it might also be worth scouring yard sales and pawn shops for cheap fixer-up projects that can help build skill and confidence with the tools and a knowledge of how instruments are designed and work.

[Avi Ziv]

A few years ago, after getting tired of using my kitchen table for woodworking, I built my first workbench out of lumber from HD plus the vise hardware from Lee Valley. It's been serving me well. It's not the fanciest workbench out there but it was possible for me to build it without a...workbench... and with only a couple of power tools. The bench is rock stable and very heavy - good for hand tools such as planes etc. The plans can be found here (http://images.taunton.com/downloads/GSIW_workbench.pdf)

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4064/5124752083_c247930ca7.jpg

The fact that this workbench can be disassembled will come in handy when I move house later on in the year.

Good luck with your new interest

[Jim Garber]

Home depot is currently selling an all wood woodworkers bench that looks pretty good. Its cheaper at this point than making your own. Particularly since this early in the game, you dont know what you need.

It is always helpful to provide a link. Is this workbench (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-72-in-Fold-Out-Wood-Workbench-WKBNCH72X22/203083493#.Unv7Y_msj3U) the one you are referring to?

Avi's looks a lot sturdier and I wonder if the HD one can support a nice vice like Avi's.

[Avi Ziv]

I made some improvements to the workbench above what the plan called for. I didn't like the idea of having MDF as the top layer and so I attached a layer of tempered hardboard to the top with countersunk screws. This way I can replace the top if it ever gets too beat up. I also wanted a heavier/better vise and decided it was worth the effort of fitting a face vise and making custom jaws for it. But a simpler all-metal vise can be used easily. The last thing I did was wrap the top with maple to protect the mdf which is stable but easily beat up. The base was built exactly as shown in the plan



The HD bench Jim shows is indeed cheaper but still I think you can build something like what I have or similar for less than $200. Price it out

[Timbofood]

High end furniture guy around here did the MDF top and rolled a coat of varnish on it. Looks quite a bit like Avi's, have been pondering making one myself but, I don't build much really. Had been doing some dollhouse furniture for grand daughter but, she's growing up!
One of the posters here used to build on a pretty small bench. Heck, mandolin's aren't that big. Use the space carefully and lots of things can be accomplished!
If you have access to the "group tools" for roughing out, a small bench and well considered small tools at home may just render everything you need. Good luck.

[belbein]

It is always helpful to provide a link.

Well, I would'a ... if I'd been in civilization and had something more than my cell phone to access the internet.

[belbein]

The HD bench Jim shows is indeed cheaper but still I think you can build something like what I have or similar for less than $200. Price it out

I want y'all to understand that I'm not arguing for the HD workbench. But I will say that if a person is fixin' to get ready to start, s/he may not want to spend time making the perfect workbench. In fact, I don't think you can make the perfect workbench until you know how you work, and you don't know that for a long time. So a quick and dirty workbench is the best bet, and if someone's already sawed all the lumber and provided all the connections ... well, you know, more time to get beyond that first kit.

[Marty Jacobson]

Brad is completely right - in fact, you cannot build a decent workbench without a decent workbench.

Same is true for a lot of things -- you can't build a lathe without a lathe, you can't build a CNC machine without a CNC machine...

Of course, you can... but it usually becomes a stepping stone to a better, flatter, more stable one.

[OldSausage]

This is the workbench I, and I suspect many others, used to build their first workbench. I've now built two workbenches, but still find uses for it:

http://www.blackanddecker.com/power-tools/WM425.aspx

[bmac]

Avi Ziv:

That is one nice looking small work bench.... I would think perfect for mandos.

[Shelagh Moore]

This is the workbench I, and I suspect many others, used to build their first workbench. I've now built two workbenches, but still find uses for it:

http://www.blackanddecker.com/power-tools/WM425.aspx

Yep... indeed! I was just today using the very same for a little repair work as my main workbench has an instrument in pieces on it!

[Marty Jacobson]

You can never have too many workbenches. I have at seven or eight (12 depending on how you count) and there's still never enough room. Work-Mates are useful. I don't have one anymore but I used to do all my fire in the hole side bending on one.

[Jim Garber]

Same is true for a lot of things -- you can't build a lathe without a lathe, you can't build a CNC machine without a CNC machine...

So very true, Marty, but you can build a mandolin without a mandolin... I think?

[Larry Simonson]

Having built lots of furniture, a sail boat, a mandolin kit, and a mandolin from scratch my advice is to make something out of wood that has two or more parts that have to fit together well. For example you might practice cutting thru dovetail joints for a drawer or making invisible glue joints. Skilled woodworkers can do these with the simplest of tools but they require practice and your mastery of these will serve you well in building a mandolin.

[ProfChris]

If yu have no experience and are thinking of starting with a uke, why not build a cigar box shape like this:

109310

You can buy ready-thicknessed sheets of spruce and mahogany from aero-modelling shops - you want the 1/16 thick sheets (see http://www.nationalbalsa.com/ for the kind of thing). However, you need to go to the shop to choose, because only some of these sheets are suitable. You have to pick nice straight grain (no wavy grain patterns) and if you look at the end of the sheet you want grain lines which are pretty much vertical, not at an angle.You also need to hold the sheet up by a corner and tap it with your knuckle - some go Thud, others Boinng (discard those which sound dead).

One sheet of spruce and two of mahogany will make your body. Then you need to find a piece of hardwood to make your neck, and as it's a uke you can set the frets direct in the neck rather than making a fretboard. Use a zero fret, rather than a nut, so as to give yourself the best chance of achieving good intonation and a playable action.

This will give you plenty of practice in making a playable instrument, but without the extra difficulty of thicknessing and bending wood. And if you succeed it will sound surprisingly good, not a toy at all.

[Tommcgtx]

Thank you all so much for the suggestions! I have another question along these lines. Is there less expensive wood for top/back carving practice, and side bending? What wood would have a similar cut and properties for practice? Or would it be OK to practice on any old piece of lumber, even if sawn a different way? Forgive me if these are silly questions, as I don't know nuthin' 'bout nuthin'. :)

[Jim Adwell]

Thank you all so much for the suggestions! I have another question along these lines. Is there less expensive wood for top/back carving practice, and side bending? What wood would have a similar cut and properties for practice? Or would it be OK to practice on any old piece of lumber, even if sawn a different way? Forgive me if these are silly questions, as I don't know nuthin' 'bout nuthin'. :)

You can get red oak, poplar and western red cedar at Home Depot or Lowes (at least around here). Red oak bends pretty well, and works rather well for back and sides, just doesn't look like much. It can get bumpy with abrasive shaping sometimes, though, depending on how the grain runs through the piece. Poplar is a little harder to bend than oak, but also is serviceable for back and sides, and neck for that matter, it's fairly stiff. Some poplar looks pretty nice, too, with streaks of yellow, red, green, and purple. Western red cedar is of course a recognized tonewood and makes nice mandolin tops. If you are persistent and get lucky you can find close-grained quarter-sawn pieces of cedar at the above mentioned stores. If you can find a lumber yard or building supply place that sells rough-cut lumber all three woods will be cheaper than buying from HD/Lowes, assuming you have the tools to mill it.

[Tommcgtx]

Workbench, check! I just got back from buying this one from a company that went out of business. at first,they wanted $75, then $60. Today, they listed them on Craigslist for $50, so I went and got it. It is used, but they cost $200 at Sam's club brand new. Here's a link for the new ones: http://www.samsclub.com/sams/ultra-heavy-duty-workbench/prod1490086.ip?navAction=
The one I got has a slight curvature in the top from front to back, but I think it will serve my purposes well. They have a floor stand type drill press as well for $70, which started out at $90, so I'll be watching it.