View Full Version : Bach by Thile- Choice of The Gibson Loar
9lbShellhamer
Oct-29-2013, 1:25pm
Not trying to be tongue in cheek, just trying to genuinely learn why Thile could have switched to his Loar. The tone sounds more delicate, but more specifically to me, it sounds "thin" or "dry". Thile is a genius. I'm not criticizing, just stating an uneducated off the surface opinion. I think I prefer the Dude era, although I appreciate the chance to hear Bach through him.
I know its hard to speculate...
Does that Mandolin embody the music better? I'd like to hear it played on the Dude maybe to compare. It seems like the sounds he was getting on his earlier recordings like from How to Grow and earlier were more full and the tone was sweeter. Apples to Oranges but still, it seems like there is background static because the Loar is quiet or something. I can only keeping of the words "dry" and "thin" when trying to describe the voicing on the Loar in the Bach recordings.
I don't know... I'm not being rhetorical, I just think the Loar sounds a little "thin". I'm not that well versed.
I like the sounds on the earlier stuff, and although the Bach recordings are great, the tone is very different than the Thile I'm used to...not better or worse, just different.
Any insights?
PS- I'm a huge Thile fan and think the world of him... and I definitely appreciate the chance to be enlightened to Bach as a result of his playing and even for switching up instruments so I can actually hear a difference. It's given me a chance to know what I prefer...
The tone of the Loar is closer to what he wanted to sound like. No other reason.
Whatever it sounded like to you or me.
I would have to hear an A - B comparison to hear the difference. I am impressed with how that Loar has such a great sound across the range of volumes, delicate and hard playing, it sounds great. I can't compare though, with his other isntruments.
PJ Doland
Oct-29-2013, 1:41pm
He'd sound amazing playing a $40 Rogue.
JEStanek
Oct-29-2013, 2:01pm
Hmm. It sounded fantastic in the Perlman Theater in Philly last week. Not thin or dry at all. In fact, it had a tremondous breadth of tone depending on how he played. From sounding like a music box to a shred machine to a great mandolin.
Jamie
M.Marmot
Oct-29-2013, 2:01pm
He'd sound amazing playing a $40 Rogue.
In that case, if he'd like to swap that ol' dude of his for a 40 dollar Rogue then get him to PM me. ;)
jefflester
Oct-29-2013, 2:11pm
I haven't heard him live in over a year, but I prefer the Dude to the Loar for exactly the reasons you describe. The Loar sounds too thin to my ears. This is independent of whether he is playing Bach or not. And I've sat and heard him play the Loar and the Dude from about 5 feet away in the Little Room at Largo.
9lbShellhamer
Oct-29-2013, 2:12pm
He'd sound amazing playing a $40 Rogue.
Says the guy with a Dudenbostel in his signature! Hahaha...
9lbShellhamer
Oct-29-2013, 2:14pm
Hmm. It sounded fantastic in the Perlman Theater in Philly last week. Not thin or dry at all. In fact, it had a tremondous breadth of tone depending on how he played. From sounding like a music box to a shred machine to a great mandolin.
Jamie
Yeah. Very True!
Amazing that it is the same instrument I've heard on Punch Brothers recordings...Perhaps I should re-listen to other recordings of his Loar to compare, then I suppose I would have a better insight to its potential.
JFDilmando
Oct-29-2013, 8:20pm
I wonder why Itzhak Perlman chose the violin he did....or any other extraordinary musician that has an ear, which covered with a pillow, is more discerning than mine... Chooses an instrument over another.... Maybe their ear is much more sensitive and educated than mine, and they can hear subtleties that I cannot.... Prefer something that I hear as tinny, or weak....as something their ear comprehends as complex, and beautiful...
Can I imagine walking up to Chris at then end of his evening.... "Hi Chris ....great playing there tonight....think you might have played the Gigue in Dm a bit slower though... And by the way....why did you play that thin Loar, when you could have played the Dude???
Interesting ruminations.....
Wolfboy
Oct-29-2013, 8:40pm
I wonder why Itzhak Perlman chose the violin he did....
Interestingly enough, Perlman used two different violins for his recording of the Sonatas and Partitas...
From the liner notes:
"This recording of the Bach Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin was made over a period of several months. At the start of the project the violin I was playing on was my beautiful Guarneri del Gesu of around 1740 - 'Ex Sauret'. However, after the recording was underway I was most fortunate to acquire the Antonio Stradivari 'Soil' of 1714. I could not resist using this magnificent instrument on record at the first opportunity; the C Major and A Minor Sonatas became that opportunity.
"People often ask which I prefer to play, the Stradivarius or the Guarnerius. I must admit that although each instrument has its own unique qualities and characteristics, I find it a great pleasure to change from one to the other and I certainly love playing them both."
So we mandolin players aren't the only ones... (I'll have to listen to that recording again now, and see if I hear any significant difference between the two in his hands!)
JEStanek
Oct-29-2013, 8:49pm
With as meticulous as he is with his technique and his set up, I would imagine, he's playing the instrument that performs and inspires him to perform his best. Is part of the Loar lure just the mojo, perhaps. However, I bet he's getting the sound in his head to come out of the box of his choice for these recordings and performances.
He speaks at length about it here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001436.shtml).
Dan Beimborn: My wife commented to me during the performance that she was amazed at how many different sounds you were getting from the mandolin. Has the Loar changed anything for you? Any new direction as a result of this instrument?
Chris Thile: ABSOLUTELY! That mandolin has so much life in it. It has a lot more "high end information" than my last mandolin did. The last mandolin had this beautiful... (it's not dead! it still has it!) this beautiful woody low end, low mids, but then it started to fall off high-mids and highs, so where the high end... the only information up there was really referring back to the low end, and then it was just pick against the string. Not a super-pleasant kind of sound. As opposed to the wood having a high-end character of its own. This mandolin has less information in the low end, but it's really balanced across the spectrum. This is really, really nice for me. I'm always climbing it, and falling all the time.
Jamie
John Hill
Oct-29-2013, 10:08pm
I've seen Thile & the Dude 3 or 4 times and now I've seen him with a Loar twice. I prefer the Loar.
William Smith
Oct-29-2013, 10:59pm
To each his own on the sound they go for! Be it the fat toned Gils with X-bracing, or the refined highs/midrange of a Gil tone bar. the perfect balance of trebly lows mids and cutting highs of a Loar or the fatty lows and mid of a certain Dude. Some Loars sound Monroeish and some Loars have a different bell like tone. But sound is all in the ear of the beholder anyway. I like coke better than pepsi.
JeffD
Oct-29-2013, 11:24pm
What the Loar might sound like to any of us, or how it compares to a Dude to our ears, or what we prefer in the sound and tone of a mandolin is entirely irrelevant.
I believe if Thile thought any other mandolin in the world would sound better than his Loar for playing that Bach, he would have chosen it instead. He felt the Loar was the best choice for what he needed the mandolin to do for that Bach.
I have the Bach CD and I've listened to it many times so far. I also saw him perform live several years ago with his Dude. Maybe the OP needs new speakers, because Thile's Loar doesn't sound thin or dry, it sounds incredible the way he plays it.
f5loar
Oct-30-2013, 12:11am
When you consider Dudenbostel strives to get as close to a Loar sound as possible (some say they are, some say better) and add to it the equation that really no two Loars are the same it really boils down to what Thile likes to play not what we like to hear. I've heard others say the same about Ronnie McCoury in that they like the sound of his Gilchrist over his Loar. Considering both of these guys paid a hefty sum to get them a real Loar there has to be something special as to why they wanted one.
Chris' dude has engelmann spruce top and so is likely more bassy/deeper sounding than Loar and most of his recordings with the dude were heavily EQ'd (like Nickel Creek recordings), since he got his Loar he seems to prefer very little to no EQ (judging from his sound) and that may mislead folks about it's sound when compared to older recordings.
Similarly compare sound of Adam Steffey on ETYSGB album of AKUS and his recent recordings. He seems to prefer very little EQ these days when compared to that "huge" engineered sound of AKUS.
M.Marmot
Oct-30-2013, 5:07am
He'd sound amazing playing a $40 Rogue.
To think of how many of those Rogues he could have bought with his MacArthur scholarship...
seriously though, if you are reading this Mr. Thile that offer to swap a shiny new 40 dollar Rogue for your dusty old Dude is still open (just send a PM and we'll get the ball rolling)
M.Marmot
Oct-30-2013, 5:11am
I'd like to put forward the notion that perhaps, just perhaps, Mr. Thile's playing has also evolved since his first recordings and that the sound we are hearing now is a result not only of the Loar (blessed be his name) but also of a more nuanced approach to playing on the part of the player?
BradKlein
Oct-30-2013, 7:16am
These may be the closest you can come to a fair comparison between the Dudenbostel/Wegen/broken headstock scroll combo, HERE>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSZ40V0teGM
And the Gibson/Bluechip/intact headstock scroll, HERE>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3lH_Tevw5o
The audio recordings are probably roughly comparable, and the settings are fairly similar -- although I suspect that the rent is considerably higher for one of those apartments than the other, and that may affect toniness.
John Adrihan
Oct-30-2013, 7:28am
There are others that actually know Chis that feel the other Mandolin better fit him than the Loar. Just sayin.
There are others that actually know Chis that feel the other Mandolin better fit him than the Loar. Just sayin.
Yea but... yea but... :)
Chris is demonstrably able to make his own decisions. He's bright, he knows what he wants, and he has the resources.
It just strikes me as kind of odd to ask "why would Chris pick the Loar when it doesn't sound better to me?"
I guess its better than saying "Chris does it this way" as justification for our choices.
I think its cool how much we pay attention to the details. His and ours. I think that is, really, a big part of the fun of mandolinning, and of chatting with all of you, that we all really get into the details, whether we agree or not.
Jim Garber
Oct-30-2013, 9:38am
We all choose instruments for various reasons. First and foremost are expectations of tone, responsiveness and playability and a comfort level and connection that the instrument gives. In addition, what the instrument sounds like in the audience and in a recording. Bear in mind that there so many variables in terms of recording and performance environments and equipment.
I have played a good handful of Loars over many years but until a few months ago did not really have an extended period of time to get a real sense of what it could do. After about 15 minutes I started to notice things that I have never heard on other instruments, subtleties of tone and responsiveness. Yes CT could prob play his Dude and sound wonderful to us but I would guess that he found some connection with this instrument that caused him to choose it for this music and this concert.
PJ Doland
Oct-30-2013, 10:07am
It's probably also worth mentioning when comparing those videos that he has changed string brands. If I recall correctly, he was using Elixirs and switched more recently to D'Addario EXPs. I've also heard that he's playing with the action set higher these days.
PJ Doland
Oct-30-2013, 10:09am
Says the guy with a Dudenbostel in his signature! Hahaha...
I need the Dude precisely because I CAN'T play like he does. It's called "compensating."
:grin:
JEStanek
Oct-30-2013, 10:21am
He also replaced the Loar's fingerboard for a better more comfortable one...
f5loar
Oct-30-2013, 11:32am
Likely so he could get those crystal clear notes past the 15th fret. Never seemed to bother me since I don't go past the 12th fret!
Yeah, string brand/guage changes, picks changes can sure play into those slight change in tones not to mention type mic and where the mic is placed.
M.Marmot
Oct-30-2013, 11:59am
I need the Dude precisely because I CAN'T play like he does. It's called "compensating."
:grin:
Um, as i have'nt heard from Mr. Thile i'm going to allow you to avail of my swap a Dude for a 40 dollar Rogue exchange scheme, just PM me and we'll get the ball rolling.
Are you reading that Mr Thile - you're gonna regret missing out on that Rogue one of these days - better get in contact quick.
Bach on a Rogue - now, that'd be something
BradKlein
Oct-30-2013, 4:55pm
It's probably also worth mentioning when comparing those videos that he has changed string brands. If I recall correctly, he was using Elixirs and switched more recently to D'Addario EXPs. I've also heard that he's playing with the action set higher these days.
Yes. I should have mentioned the change in strings and action between the two videos. Normally, I think it's futile trying to judge tone from a YT video. But in this case, I think you can discern something real. I personally like Thile's first Loar, very, very much!
9lbShellhamer
Oct-30-2013, 5:07pm
Yea but... yea but... :)
Chris is demonstrably able to make his own decisions. He's bright, he knows what he wants, and he has the resources.
It just strikes me as kind of odd to ask "why would Chris pick the Loar when it doesn't sound better to me?"
I guess its better than saying "Chris does it this way" as justification for our choices.
I think its cool how much we pay attention to the details. His and ours. I think that is, really, a big part of the fun of mandolinning, and of chatting with all of you, that we all really get into the details, whether we agree or not.
Wasn't trying to be odd... was genuinely interested in the project and the Loar. The question uncovered some interesting dialogue! I love the Cafe. Such a wealth of knowledge! I'm just trying to soak it in, hence the caveat in the OP. Interesting comments about the EQ in the Nickel Creek days, and also very cool to watch the Dude play Bach and The Gibson play Bach!
Art is subjective after all. Very cool regardless.
Dave LaBoone
Oct-30-2013, 10:13pm
Wow, incredible tone and playing on the Gm sonata, in particular. Thanks for sharing!
Cheryl Watson
Oct-31-2013, 6:41am
Here are the links to answers already posted in this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2P1USiqzKw
The Thile MC interview by Dan Beimborn in which Thile states that the Loar has more "high end information...":
http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001436.shtml
It's a great article that I think is worth reading more than once. Thile answers a lot of questions and also mentions that he has raised his string action over the last three or four years to get a better tone.
Other general information I remember from various sources: Thile's first Loar was not professionally playable when he bought it, and the fretboard has been replaced for better playability and intonation. His first Loar was used exclusively on the Bach recording. His second Loar, at the time of the Bach recording, was not ready to be played professionally as yet.
Caleb
Oct-31-2013, 10:21am
It probably has at least something to do with history. Whether one likes the tone of the Loar or not, it'd still be pretty cool to have something with that kind of historical significance in one's own respective genre. I really love the sound of the Nickel Creek records, but I wonder if some of that wasn't due to production style rather than choice of instrument? I could take my Eastman into a studio and a brilliant engineer/producer combo could make my mandolin sound a lot better than it really does. Or at least a lot different.
Jim Garber
Oct-31-2013, 11:15am
It probably has at least something to do with history. Whether one likes the tone of the Loar or not, it'd still be pretty cool to have something with that kind of historical significance in one's own respective genre.
Yikes! That would be pretty amazing to own a Loar and not like the sound of it or to not play it.
Traveling Tracks
Oct-31-2013, 11:41am
I recently saw both Philly & Princeton shows during Bachtoberfest and have to say that during the Philly show when I was in the third row, center…right in front of him, a lot of the sound I was hearing was from the mandolin, not the PA system….and I was really blown away particularly during the B minor and the sounds he achieved during that piece, which I can only best describe as "harp-like". It was really amazing.
Hendrik Ahrend
Oct-31-2013, 4:48pm
While we're at it, does Chris play #75318 at all (the one purchased at Mandobros. last year), or does he usually prefer #75316? Does anybody know?
Larry S Sherman
Oct-31-2013, 5:19pm
I was under the impression that one was modified for playing out, and the other one is kept unmodified at home.
BradKlein
Oct-31-2013, 7:11pm
While we're at it, does Chris play #75318 at all (the one purchased at Mandobros. last year), or does he usually prefer #75316? Does anybody know?
Answers in Part One of the recent Thile Cafe Interview HERE. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001579.shtml)
As for Part Two… Chris is a busy guy, and Nonesuch has managed to get some fantastic publicity for this release… and I guess I have to wait in line a while longer!
Jim Garber
Oct-31-2013, 7:44pm
It is interesting what he says:
The Bach recording was made entirely with the first of my two Loars. The new one is not playable yet. It's a beautiful axe both visually and aurally, but I'm going to — as (Australian luthier) Stephen Gilchrist would say — modernize it. Every original Loar I've ever played plays pretty damn out of tune. If you're going to play difficult music on a mandolin, then a fully original Loar is just not practical. I feel very strongly that they don't show themselves at their best until you get in there an manipulate them a little bit.
I was aware of the misplacement of frets in some Loar era mandolins but, for some reason, did not realize that it extended to the Loar-signed F5s as well. I had an 24 F4 that had that problem. It was obviously out of tune grossly so in the upper frets. Or is CT referring to a more subtle problem that most of us might not hear?
9lbShellhamer
Nov-19-2013, 6:35pm
Instead of letting a sleeping dog lay, I figured I'd make a follow up to my OP...maybe a bit of backpeddling- :redface:
I've listened to about 30 hours of Thile over the past several weeks and I've got to say, that Loar is blowing my mind now.
Listening to Thile play with Michael Daves is really what captivated me. The bell like tones, the crystal clear notes up high on the fretboard. I love the tone of that Loar when he's cranking on it...
The OP was specifically talking about the Bach recordings...but otherwise, dang, I'm in love with that mandolin and what Thile can pull out of it.
Listening to him play with Daves just seems like they are having fun! I love that album...
Ken_P
Nov-19-2013, 10:08pm
Wow, I really feel like the odd one out here - I've always preferred the Dude, and I stand by that, even with the Bach recordings. Maybe I just don't like the Loar sound. I've had the chance to play a few that people have assured me are awe inspiring, and I've yet to be impressed.
Truth be told, I'm moving away from the whole carved top sound altogether. For Bach in particular, I like what I've heard from Catreina Lichtenberg, and I love the sound of Avi Avital and Jacob Reuven on their Kermans. I'm still a huge Thile fan, but there's more to the mandolin world than Gibson.
Fretbear
Nov-19-2013, 11:06pm
Listening to those two clips, it is not a contest (to my ears) that the Dude has a rounder, sweeter, fatter tone everywhere, both treble and the bass, as well as up and down the neck. A perfect example of a "modern" mandolin sound. Those Loar(s) (may) sound different again when they have gotten pounded on as much as that Dude has.
John Hill
Nov-19-2013, 11:14pm
Funny, but this project of Thile's has even further cemented by dislike for the sound of traditional classical mandolins such as used by Lichtenberg and Reuven. When it gets down to it what turns me off the most is the sound of the flatwound strings in conjunction with bowl/flatbacks. Just the polar opposite of what type of tone I find pleasing. Hearing Bach played marvelously on an old F style with pb strings...rich, resonant, sparkling, powerful (to my ears anyway)...that's what I'm after.
Brandon Johnson
Nov-19-2013, 11:42pm
I reckon I'll go ahead and throw in a few cents. Once backstage after a CT/Michael Daves concert I had the incredible blessing and fortune to play Chris' first Loar and drink a plastic cup of Woodford Reserve that he poured for me. I have not played his Dude (although I have played A Dude that I liked very much). IMHO the Loar was the best mandolin I've ever touched. I've by no means played them all, but I have payed a diverse range of really nice mandolins. Also, by no means do I make this statement because Chris is the owner or because our friend Lloyd signed it. There are mandolins not signed by LL that I think are better (in some cases much better) than those that are signed by LL, but I digress. The projection, sustain, and clarity of the notes beyond the 7th fret on Chris' Loar were unlike any instrument I had ever heard. Every note across the whole board rang like a piano with great balance. When you listen to the two videos above you can hear that the Dude produces "pick against string" sound in the high register while the Loar is a more complex sound. As I have warmed to the Bach recording and listened to it with more intent, I think the qualities of the high-end information on the Loar, sustain in particular, are ideal for the cross-picking and position shifting in the music. Now, the sound that comes out of the Dude is more the sound that I would like to have coming out of my mandolin (I know, don't we all), but Chris knows best for his own playing. Chris Thile is Chris Thile is Chris Thile. Ridiculous as it is, this is a fun conversation that I am willing to take part in.
BradKlein
Nov-20-2013, 1:47pm
When you listen to the two videos above you can hear that the Dude produces "pick against string" sound in the high register while the Loar is a more complex sound. As I have warmed to the Bach recording and listened to it with more intent, I think the qualities of the high-end information on the Loar, sustain in particular, are ideal for the cross-picking and position shifting in the music.
Brandon, I think there's no question that you're right regarding pick sound in the two recordings. It's only fair to point out that Chris had a couple of years between those recordings, during which he changed from the Wegen to the Blue Chip pick, and perhaps more importantly, worked obsessively on that very issue of minimizing pick/string noise. I also agree that the benefits of that work are most evident in the higher positions.
I suspect that effort on CT's part leading up to his Bach recording, may be the biggest takeaway from the two videos I posted. Probably bigger than the change of picks, mandolin, strings, microphones and apartments.
bratsche
Nov-20-2013, 3:02pm
I wasn't even going to get into this discussion because, while it's been understood that instruments are a matter of highly subjective personal taste, picks were the thing on my mind... but since they've finally been brought up, I can't resist putting in my $.02... I think Chris should lose the Blue Chip. Seriously. That thing all too often in the video posted makes a noise that to me, distracts from the performance. If he was working "obsessively" on minimizing pick noise, then I think he needs to get something altogether different, because to my ears, anyway, it ain't working. The Wegen was marginally better, but not enough, IMO. But the BlueChip... aaaargh! (The same reason I didn't keep the one I bought - I noticed the same noise whenever I used it. In the particular register of the BC material's resonance, my ears are very sensitive, I guess - to me it's like hearing fingernails on a chalkboard.)
bratsche
Bratche - I have to say I agree. I noticed the exact same pick noise when I saw him perform Bach in Carnegie recently. Thanks to the exceptional acoustics of the room, it was actually amplified, and once I noticed it, I had a hard time focusing on the music, especially in the more moderate tempo movements (the double of the alemande and sarabande in the B minor, in particular).
Ivan Kelsall
Nov-21-2013, 3:59am
'Pick noise' !. - It got me wondering yesterday re.pick noise on one of my own mandolins. 99% of the time i've had my Weber "Fern",i've used J74's = no pick noise (that i can hear anyway). I recently put DR Handmade 'mediums' (J74 gauges) on it,& they've improved the power & volume greatly without changing the 'tone'. Yesterday,i noticed that up the neck round about the 7th fret or above,i was getting pick noise for the first time.So,do the strings contribute to this factor,as well as the type of picks we're using ?.At one time i wouldn't have thought so,but i can hear it for myself on my Weber. I wonder if CT's recent change of string type has contributed to pick noise on his Loar ?,
Ivan:confused:
DataNick
Nov-21-2013, 7:04pm
I think the OP's "ear" is more of a "bluegrass mando" ear while Mr. Thile's ear is tonally all over the sound spectrum and much more sensitive it appears to sound frequencies than many of us. I can relate to the OP, though classically trained on trumpet for 11 years, I immensely prefer the "bluegrass" or "Monroe-type Loar" sound on the mando, and like that deep end sound that Mr. Thile described above in his own assessment of the differences between the two instruments.
Bottom line as others have said, he's getting exactly the sound he wants; just sit back, relax and enjoy....incredibly talented and in my book a musical "genius"!
Demetrius
Aug-30-2015, 9:12am
It's really hard to say... Although I've actually played both of these mandolins
It's been so long since I played Dudenbostel #5 that I can't make a proper assessment
Of which one felt better to at least me. Which honestly doesn't really matter, cause I'm
Not the one performing or recording with them. I remember there being something quite special
About both mandolins, but I don't rem exactly what. They both felt really good, responded really
great, but I will say I rem the dude having this not even normal presence. Maybe it's because
he had played the heck out of it for so long, or simply Lynn is just that incredible of a maker.
I just remember thinking ok this is like nothing I've ever played before. It has qualitys of a loar,
And then some. A piano like quality.
Also the video quality of all the Thile videos playing the Loar are of much better quality, with the exception
of Thile playing the dude in the Michael Lawrence Bach documentary. Very fine sound and video.
But the newer Thile loar videos are far greater in quality, so trying to compare them in videos is
useless. Just as him to go over his house and play them both side by side Lol. :)
DavidKOS
Aug-30-2015, 9:29am
Funny, but this project of Thile's has even further cemented by dislike for the sound of traditional classical mandolins such as used by Lichtenberg and Reuven. When it gets down to it what turns me off the most is the sound of the flatwound strings in conjunction with bowl/flatbacks. .
I prefer bowlbacks in general and roundwound strings in the old Italian tradition. The German school seems to like a darker tone from those flatwound strings.
However Avital and Reuven sound great to my ear on those Kerman mandolins.
I think the OP's "ear" is more of a "bluegrass mando" ear... I immensely prefer the "bluegrass" or "Monroe-type Loar" sound on the mando.
And that's part of the whole reason that we have discussions about bowlbacks or archtops, thinner pointed picks or thicker rounded ones, roundwound or flatwound strings, etc.
I for one do not have a "Bluegrass ear" on mandolin, although I certainly appreciate a good player. My ear was formed by Italian and other music, and as such what others may hear as "tinny" or "shrill" I hear as "sparkling" or "brilliant". What others hear as "warm" or "deep" I might hear as "boomy".
In a way this is somewhat amusing....of course his Loar was designed as a "classical" instrument, since that was Loar's intent! But the F instruments have become so associated with other playing styles that the original intent of the designer has been lost.
DavidKOS
Aug-30-2015, 9:35am
... lose the Blue Chip. Seriously. That thing all too often in the video posted makes a noise that to me, distracts from the performance. If he was working "obsessively" on minimizing pick noise, then I think he needs to get something altogether different, because to my ears, anyway, it ain't working. The Wegen was marginally better, but not enough, IMO. But the BlueChip... aaaargh!
Again the type of pick.
I'm pretty sure NONE of the classical mandolin methods suggest a pick like either Wegans or Blue Chip.
Pretty much all classical mandolin books, other than any using the long Roman plectrum, use a basic pick of this shape, and not too thick.
http://www.marilynnmair.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/classical-mandolin-picks-m.jpg
I'm referring to the varieties of Neapolitan picks. Notice the thicknesses, nothing over 1.27, most under 1mm.
I'm pretty sure that using this sort of pick would help, although Mr. Thile certainly doesn't need any help from me!
Demetrius
Aug-30-2015, 10:07am
Yeh but that can almost be said about every instrument ever made.
I can't think of any instruments that were designed for a certain
type of music that hasn't been utilized in doing something that didn't
even excise at the time. Like when Willies guitar was made I guarantee that's
not what the Martin company had in mind. It's all tools, and we all build different things with them.
But I will agree those bowl backs clearly sound best when used in the style of classical music.
DavidKOS
Aug-30-2015, 10:36am
I can't think of any instruments that were designed for a certain
type of music that hasn't been utilized in doing something that didn't
even exist at the time. .
That's certainly true!
A good example - the Les Paul electric guitar, idolized as a rock guitar, was designed for the jazz player.
Hendrik Ahrend
Aug-30-2015, 4:51pm
That's certainly true!
A good example - the Les Paul electric guitar, idolized as a rock guitar, was designed for the jazz player.
You might even want to add the violin. The first violins - way before Amati - were designed for dance music.
DavidKOS
Aug-30-2015, 5:35pm
You might even want to add the violin. The first violins - way before Amati - were designed for dance music.
And in fiddling, still are. And many fiddlers don't use bad violin techniques, they use old violin techniques.
So does that make the courtly use as in Baroque and Classical music one of those "other uses" than an instrument was designed for?
SincereCorgi
Aug-30-2015, 6:10pm
And in fiddling, still are. And many fiddlers don't use bad violin techniques, they use old violin techniques.
Oh, they use a lot of bad technique, too. :grin:
dcoventry
Aug-30-2015, 10:18pm
Well, at least we can all agree on that fairly rapid down turn in tone that happened when he stopped playing his Rigel CT110.
Sad day, sad day indeed.
brunello97
Aug-30-2015, 10:52pm
In a way this is somewhat amusing....of course his Loar was designed as a "classical" instrument, since that was Loar's intent! But the F instruments have become so associated with other playing styles that the original intent of the designer has been lost.
I saw CT's Bach tour up in AA at the Rackham Auditorium. We had close enough seats so we were hearing it off the Loar itself rather than the (very nicely situated) mics. It was flat out killer. A conversation ender. Okay, the acoustics in Rackham are spectacular but the instrument was sublime. The high end wasn't just shimmering in a bowlback way. It was transcendent.
I'm a dedicated bowl man and I quibble about bowls v Loars v whatever no more.
Mick
DavidKOS
Aug-30-2015, 11:31pm
We had close enough seats so we were hearing it off the Loar itself rather than the (very nicely situated) mics. It was flat out killer.....The high end wasn't just shimmering in a bowlback way. It was transcendent.
I'm a dedicated bowl man and I quibble about bowls v Loars v whatever no more.
Mick
That good sounding, huh?
I love my Italian mandolin sounds, but when an instrument sounds "transcendent" one has to pay attention.
Beanzy
Aug-31-2015, 10:00am
I heard him in London and the sound was good too. I wouldn't wax lyrical about the mandolin though, it was good but as people above indicate it was a harder more punchy and heavy or to use that phrase "woody", certainly not ideal for the pieces being played which would benefit from less lumber and a lighter built instrument, but we're not going to hear him on anything like that so there's no good wishing. His talent and musical choices in how he approached some of the pieces on that instrument were very well judged, only let down by the excessive clickyness from the plectrum in the slower movements, in a similar way to on the recordings. Interestingly I found his movement very distracting and found it easier to concentrate on the music if I looked away. This never mattered in any of the other concerts I've seen him in solo or with the PB outfit.
Capt. E
Aug-31-2015, 4:18pm
I too prefer the Loar, but the two pieces are rather different. What I like the most is how on Prelude I in Gm, CT uses the strengths of the mandolin by incorporating various chords and techniques that are impossible on the violin. The violin, in return, has capabilities and strengths that the mandolin lacks. I doubt if Bach ever heard his music played as CT is playing it. I like to think he would approve and set about composing some sonatas for mandolin.
Demetrius
Sep-03-2015, 11:53am
The only way to really settle this is for Thile himself to make
a casual video of him sitting on. Couch at his place A-B'ing his Loar and his Dude.
I mean that would make for an incredibly interesting video, and I'm certain many
of us would looooooove to see that. Of course I know we aren't gonna get a clear
Assessment of the exact sound of each instrument, but it'll give us an idea of what
matters most in that question. Which one does Thile sound better on? Of course it's
all subjective, but at the same time we can get an idea of which one he has more
ease playing, which one is more responsive, which one chokes out on the top register.
I wish he'd see this post and make a video like this. We would all enjoy that so much
in such a geeky way.
FLATROCK HILL
Sep-03-2015, 2:04pm
This video from Carter Vintage may offer some insight into Chris' preferences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_CdTa-2-U
Of course it is not an A/B comparison between his Loar and his Dude, but rather between two Loars, both Feb 18th 1924 examples.
Somewhere around the 03:00 mark, Chris talks about the subtle characteristics he prefers. He comments that (I paraphrase) "the Loars that a lot of people gravitate to, are the ones that blow your head off with a lot of low end." He goes on to say that if that is what you are looking for, you might as well buy a D-28.
I know this is somewhat off-topic and that many of you have seen this video a ton of times. I just thought it might shed some light on what he refers to as "elegant" and "balanced".
I guess if there is a conclusion to be drawn, it would be that just because a mandolin doesn't 'blow your head off', doesn't necessarily make it 'thin'.
And as for my personal conclusion...Whether or not any of these instruments blow my head off, I'm sure most of Chris' observations go right over my head.
But I will agree those bowl backs clearly sound best when used in the style of classical music.
Which is not the same as saying that classical music sounds best on a bowl.
And for the record, I disagree with both statements. 1-Bowl backs sound great on lots of stuff. I love them for old time, I love them for Eastern European fiddle tunes, I like how they do in Klezmer, bowlbacks are too versatile to peg as only or best suited for classical.
And 2-I think classical can sound amazing on all kinds different kinds of instruments. Right now I am enamored of the Kerman mandolins that I have heard, and would not hesitate to say they are among the best mandolins playing classical music out there. But clearly the F5, and a good bowlback, can do the job so admirably that I forget the Kerman sound after the first phrase.
All this talk of best gets in the way of just appreciating stuff that is great.
FWIW I would love to hear Chris play a Kerman, and hear his comments about the experience. My suspicion is that it will mightily compete in his mind with the F5, and likely exceed the Dude for this particular application.
DavidKOS
Sep-04-2015, 10:08am
Which is not the same as saying that classical music sounds best on a bowl.
And for the record, I disagree with both statements. 1-Bowl backs sound great on lots of stuff. I love them for old time, I love them for Eastern European fiddle tunes, I like how they do in Klezmer, bowlbacks are too versatile to peg as only or best suited for classical.
And 2-I think classical can sound amazing on all kinds different kinds of instruments. Right now I am enamored of the Kerman mandolins that I have heard, and would not hesitate to say they are among the best mandolins playing classical music out there. But clearly the F5, and a good bowlback, can do the job so admirably that I forget the Kerman sound after the first phrase.
All this talk of best gets in the way of just appreciating stuff that is great.
FWIW I would love to hear Chris play a Kerman, and hear his comments about the experience. My suspicion is that it will mightily compete in his mind with the F5, and likely exceed the Dude for this particular application.
That would be interesting to hear. Those Kerman mandolins are just too rare for most of us to have ever tried one.
As for what mandolin sounds best for classical music, perhaps we should adopt the symphony method and have them play behind a screen, then we wouldn't know what mandolin was being played, only how well it was played.
So what mandolin sounds best for classical music? The one that has a good player using it!
crisscross
Sep-04-2015, 10:28pm
So what mandolin sounds best for classical music? The one that has a good player using it!
I like Marissa Caroll's L&H for Bach. Don't know whether she plays the prelude better than Chris Thile, but I like the sound of her mandolin better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL8XhxMLqbs
dcoventry
Sep-05-2015, 5:21pm
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/90044
Well thank God we can now put the Gil vs. Loar question to rest. He plays the CT110 listed above and the world goes back to spinning correctly and sounding great!