Roger Siminoff's De-Damping Service

[sonnyjammer]

Has any had Mr. Siminoff's De-Damping Service performed on their mandolin and if so, could you share your thoughts on the results?

[Chris Biorkman]

Check out the thread on Gibson Master Models from the other day. It was being discussed on the second page of the thread if memory serves me correctly.

[MikeEdgerton]

Check out this thread. There are three pages of discussion on the subject.

[sonnyjammer]

Yes, Mr Moderator, I read those the three page thread on the the service, There was only one entry from someone that had their mandolin sent to Roger. I was just curious if there were others that had first hand experience with their own mandolin. I apologize if this is a redundant topic.

[MikeEdgerton]

Not too many here have stepped up in the past when the same question was asked. Best of luck with your search. Sometimes it's easier to find what you want when someone shows you where it is. That's one of about 10 threads by the way.

[Jim Rowland]

I think Arthur Stern reported on using the dedamping service on one of his mandolins. He (if I'm remembering correctly) gave it good marks. It's somewhere on the cafe.
Jim

[MikeEdgerton]

I think Arthur Stern reported on using the dedamping service on one of his mandolins. He (if I'm remembering correctly) gave it good marks. It's somewhere on the cafe.
Jim

Yes it is, It's in the thread he was pointed to.

[SternART]

I was mentioned in that last thread, and know I have posted numerous other times on Roger's dedamping. I've had 4 instruments done.........two were what I'd call "transformed" from instruments that I was considering selling, to more balanced and open sounding instruments that I am so glad I kept. One instrument I even sent back for a 2nd treatment, and was pleased that I did, as it continued to evolve in a good way. It had a weaker E string, but not any longer. Sometimes an instrument is stronger on two or three courses and all the strings aren't equal. I think dedamping can help here.......I also think for a new instrument that is "tight"..... by dedamping it seems like it can get all the parts of the instrument working together as a team, and sound more open..... or relaxed...... and in this case I think it accelerates the break in process. Worth an experiment in my opinion, if you basically like an instrument, but it falls short in a few areas, like balance or uneven tone.... If you don't want to play it hard for 5 years to see if the tightness ever goes away this could be a good test. That said the other two instruments I sent to Roger, one had moderate improvement, and the other only slight improvement, so YMMV.

[Gary Hedrick]

I am a believer in dedamping from my own home made device.

[Mike Bromley]

I have experimented with a Bassman 4x12 cabinet which has the speakers focussed into a central area. I put a standard rubberized tool hook in the focus, and hang the mando in there. It's astounding what you can get an instrument to do with a 90-decibel woofer....it sounds like it's gonna fly apart. Perhaps such an industrial approach scares some folks, but none of my mandos have expired as a result.

[Bernie Daniel]

Mike Bromley: I have experimented with a Bassman 4x12 cabinet which has the speakers focussed into a central area. I put a standard rubberized tool hook in the focus, and hang the mando in there. It's astounding what you can get an instrument to do with a 90-decibel woofer....it sounds like it's gonna fly apart. Perhaps such an industrial approach scares some folks, but none of my mandos have expired as a result.

That sounds pretty interesting. Could you add three more elements to your story?

1) do you think that your device is very effective? (i.e., producing noticable improvements);

2) how long is a treatment session? (hours)

3) how much did it cost to make it?

Why do I ask?

I have several different instruments I've collected that hang on the wall or lie in their cases for 6 - 12 months not played.

Sometimes I'll pull down a mandolin I have not played for a while and it will sound "tight" and then "open up" as I play it for a few days (although this could really be a change in my preception -- not the mandolin).

So assuming the change is in the instrument and not my head a device like you describe might be useful.

[Mike Bromley]

That sounds pretty interesting. Could you add three more elements to your story?

1) do you think that your device is very effective? (i.e., producing noticable improvements);

2) how long is a treatment session? (hours)

3) how much did it cost to make it?

Why do I ask?

I have several different instruments I've collected that hang on the wall or lie in their cases for 6 - 12 months not played.

Sometimes I'll pull down a mandolin I have not played for a while and it will sound "tight" and then "open up" as I play it for a few days (although this could really be a change in my preception -- not the mandolin).

So assuming the change is in the instrument and not my head a device like you describe might be useful.

haven't followed a proscribed regimen yet...

It struck me as interesting that one could get an instrument to vibrate so intensely. It quite literally rattles. I want to get a tone generator or somesuch that can generate pure tones and feed them through the Bassman.

I'll have to fiddle with it for a while, but there are no obsessively-scientific standards of comparison in the works. I can't see how making an instrument vibrate intensely could be harmful to the instrument, seing how it's only air moving.

As for cost, the device set me back a vinyl-coated fork hook and a prexisting Fender Bassman 70 silverface with this gimungous 4x12 cabinet. The factory design of the cabinet has the speakers in a 'focussed' configuration. With slight modification to the cabinet to accommodate the hook, the mando can be made to hang so it has a 12" speaker assaulting it from four directions. I'm in Africa right now, otherwise I'd post a pic.

I too have had instruments behave tightly after disuse, and it seems to take some playing to get them to respond again. Case in point is my NC-lacquered Triggs seeming to lose volume relative to my F9.

I'll keep ya posted....I'm back for a month or so in December.

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, we need to get back on topic. Standing your mandolin in front of your speaker system really has little to do with Roger Siminoff's de-damping service. You can read about it here. Although Mr. Siminoff's system might include some excitation via sound waves it appears to be much more. Let's try and leave this for all of those that have sent an instrument to Roger for the service. So far we have one (thanks Art). Any others that can provide information on Roger's services? Perhaps those with other methods might want to start another thread to discuss how the methods they are using work.

[Bernie Daniel]

The description of the Siminoff technique on his page has been considerably expanded since it I last looked at it a lot of detail and a number of steps in the entire operation.

It might be noted, a regards the OP question, that there are three addtional testimonials on his site of happy customers -- perhaps some were unhappy ones somewhere too -- but I wouldn't expect Roger to put those up (and why should he?).

It would be a nice addition for the Siminoff staff to also include information on how some of the physical measurements changed as the instrument proceeds through the process of de-damping. One could probably not necessarily relate these physical measurement to anything specific in the sound. Nonetheless, one could at least have confidence that something physical is happening to the mandolin during the de-damping.

I have always thought that in theory de-damping was a great idea but would you have to do it each time you put the mandolin away for awhile to wake it back up? Certainly de-damping is not a "premanent fix" is it?

I think that is another point that should be considered.

As an aside, the previous foray in to the method of Mike Bromely was a tad OT -- but OTOH, it seems very analogous the the second step of Siminoff's de-damping process actually -- so his results are relevant for consideration at least.

From Siminoff's description: "Then, intense sound energy is directed towards the instrument via a directional speaker at 90 dB causing the instrument to respond and vibrate through sympathetic vibrations. Three different frequencies are used; the resonant frequency of the backboard, the soundboard, and the air chamber."

[MikeEdgerton]

...It might be noted, a regards the OP question, that there are three addtional testimonials on his site of happy customers -- perhaps some were unhappy ones somewhere too -- but I wouldn't expect Roger to put those up (and why should he?)....

Actually there are two more testimonials, one of those posted is from Art Stern, who to my knowledge is the only person that has posted his experiences with it on the cafe. I could be wrong, there might be more but I don't recall seeing them. Art's experiences can be found in the thread I pointed to and in his post above as SternArt.

[billkilpatrick]

for your reconsideration:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4KB29agLAQg

... and:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6unBY0pFP5I

[woodwizard]

Roger Siminoff's de-damping really sounds interesting and reasonably priced as well. I think if I lived closer ... like in Calif. I would have already tried it for sure. For some reason I always get a scary feeling when I think about sending/shipping a mandolin. I need to get over that I guess. When I do that's when I'll make a call over there and schedule it.

[Sean Greer]

Roger Siminoff's de-damping really sounds interesting and reasonably priced as well. I think if I lived closer ... like in Calif. I would have already tried it for sure.

I agree with you, it does sound interesting and I'm tempted to have my Fern run through the process. It's got a Adirondack spruce top and while I have every reason to believe that it will open up with a few years of playing, I wouldn't mind accelerating that process and get a more open sound.

Can anyone tell me where Roger is located? I've tried browsing his web site for several days now and it continually times out. The google cache of the page doesn't include his location. From what I can glean, he's in Northern California, which is perfect for me as I can drive to him.

[Mike Bromley]

From what I can glean, he's in Northern California, which is perfect for me as I can drive to him.

Sean: Lifted from his site:

Contact Us by Phone or Mail

For phone orders please call us at 805.474.4876, Monday-Friday, 8:30 am-5:00 pm PST, Saturday, 9:00 am-1:00 pm PST

For mail orders contact us at Siminoff Banjo and Mandolin Parts, PO Box 1388, Arroyo Grande, CA 93421, USA....Southern California.

[Timbofood]

For what it's worth, Mr. S. is quite quick to respond to email as well. I had a simple question for him (not related to this one) and he responded within days. I first met him waaaaaaaay back during the hazy days of the F-5 redesign. Very free with information then just as now.

[SternART]

Roger is near San Luis Obispo..........about half way between SF and LA.
The changes to my instruments have been permanent. I ship mine UPS to him.

[fredfrank]

I just got a mandolin back from Siminoff's after having the de-damping service performed on it. I have to say, Mr Stern is absolutely right about this service. It has really helped my BRW open up and it now sounds as though it's five years old. There is no tightness in the sound at all when I get it out to play. In fact, I'd have to say it even rivals my Red Diamond for volume now. Pretty neat trick, Roger.

Just for the record, the BRW is equipped with a red spruce top, maple sides and back, and a varnish finish. Good stuff to start with, but much improved now.

I'm just getting too old to be breaking in new mandolins.

[tburcham]

Hi Folks,

I recently had my 2008 Gibson F5G dedamped by Roger Siminoff. I would describe the pre-dedamping tone and volume of my F5G as typical for a new mandolin, e.g., tight with some strength in the A & E strings and undefined character in the D & D strings.

Having read most of the post on dedamping, I bombarded the mandolin with Cherryholmes latest release (its got strong bass lines) for hours at a time (usually 4 hour sets). There was a noticeable change in the tone of the mandolin during this dedamping process.

The improvement achieved with the standard speaker treatment intriqued me enough to invest in the Siminoff dedamping procedure.

I shipped my G to Roger on my birthday (Dec. 3, 2008) in a substantial box with the mandolin securely packed. Roger emailed as soon as the mandolin arrived to let me know that it had arrived safely with no problems.

It took about three weeks to get my mandolin done, as Roger was in the middle of changing locations of his shop. He returned the mandolin to me using priority mail and it crossed the continental U.S. in just three days (-:

I let the G adjust to temperature slowly and then tuned the strings back to pitch. This is an important point I would like to make concerning any mandolin that has had the string tension reduced for shipping purposes...it takes a few hours of playing time once the tension is brought back to pitch to allow the top to resonate effectively. I sold an excellent Breedlove FF on the cafe and the purchaser emailed me that at first he was disappointed in the mandolin after bringing it up to pitch...so he set on the stand for a few hours and then returned to play again. He was blown away...he said it went from disappointment to Wow!

First of all, the dedamping process did not produce a "night and day" difference in my mandolin. Nor should one expect that from a good quality mandolin. That being said, the more I played the G the better it sounded. My initial impression was that the volume wasn't improved that much, but as I compared it to my reference mandolin (distressed Silverangel), I determined that the G is now louder than the SA.

My next observation is very subjective, but then again tone is subjective anyway, so here goes...the G had what I would describe as a "noisy" tone chamber before dedamping...in other words during chops there were intrusive overtones resonating in the chamber...it had a powerful chop, but the tone was "cluttered." After the dedamping process the chops are extremely powerful and "pure." Deeper more defined!

The G is more balanced after dedamping with string to string balance much improved. Gibson mandolins are mid-range dominant (in my opinion as compared to my Silverangel) and the dedamping process certainly accentuated the D & A strings..they are POWERFUL and well defined. The E string was already good, but it too is sweeter. The G string is better, but I don't think anything but time and lots of playing will give it the character the DEA strings now have.

The G now has what I term a "tubbyiness." This is a term I have defined for Gibson mandolins as they typically don't have what I term "woody, dry" tone. That term is reserved for my Distressed Silverangel...it is Steeped in dry, woody tone. By "tubbyiness" I'm referring to the deeper darker component of the tone that usually only appears in old, mature, well-played-in instruments.

So, in this subjective topic, here's a tangible piece of information you can all use. Is dedamping worth it? Before dedamping...I played the G and tried to like it...then I would play my Silverangel and think...my Silverangel is just a way better mandolin than this G! After dedamping, I find myself playing the G a lot and thinking..this things has really got a beautiful sound...this thing has really developed in tone and projection...this thing is a really becoming GREAT mandolin. Don't get me wrong, I still LOVE my Silverangel, but now I have two great mandolins that represent the best of their respective construction methods, e.g., the SA is X-braced and the G is tone-bar braced.

So is dedamping worth the expense? I would do it again! If you have a quality instrument that is "good," dedamping will probably move that quality instrument toward the great category. The great category is reserved for all of the subjective things I have written about above...separation, projection, volume, warmness, etc. These subjective terms...define GREAT!

PS. So you have a better reference for my comments, I hold a Ph.D. in engineering and have studied the physics associated with sound. I am fascinated with the quest for mandolin greatest and I love the "Golden Era" of small shop mandolin production that we are all blessed to be a part of today. While I own a large shop instrument (Gibson F5G), I want to encourage members of the Cafe to support the wonderful community of small shop builders like Ken Ratcliff (Silverangel Mandolins). Find a builder...develop a relationship with them and then let them build the mandolin of your dreams!

[SternART]

Nice review........I'm solidly in the "believer" camp!

[Larry S Sherman]

Interesting...thank you for the report!