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Thread: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

  1. #1
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    Default Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Dagger Gordon's Scots Book thread has got me curious...

    For an age now i have figured that, despite their commonalities, there is bound to be differences between Scots and Irish traditional musics. Afterall theres a difference between Irish regional musical styles so surely theres difference between Irish and Scottish music?

    Its the sort of thing you get to believing as a given, but as i have personally never met anyone who is very familiar with Scottish playing i have never had the chance to put this belief to the question.

    So, what i'm asking is this,

    What, in your opinion, are the main differences between Scottish and Irish traditional musics?

    Do you think either musical tradition has adopted the mandolin more than the other, or is it still early days yet for the mandolins possibilities in trad music?

    If theres any useful links, listening or reading reccomendations please feel free to post them.

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Listening will reveal the similarities and differences.

    Donegal music is strongly Scottish influenced, but a fair amount of repertoire from all over Ireland is of Scottish lineage.

    Some players have not yet accepted guitar, let alone mandolin, as 'traditional'... those would be The Begrudgers, bless their calloused little hearts.

    Also, let me be the first to reference the classic Saturday Night Live skit with Mike Myers- "if it's not Scottish, it's ####!!!"

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    As John says, you would really need to do a bit of listening. It's not something easily described.

    A few points, however.
    Scottish music is very far from being homogeneous. There is a world of difference between the somewhat old-fashioned Scottish dance band scene and modern outfits like the Treacherous Orchestra.

    The regional differences are considerable as well. In Scotland the music is often influenced by the bagpipes, so you will get accordionists or fiddlers who specialise in pipe music. We often play various types of marches and of course we have our strathspey tunes.

    As regards the mandolin, I think it is fair to say that it isn't really a major instrument in either Scotland or Ireland although obviously it did feature in important bands like the Dubliners and Planxty in Ireland and is currently used by modern Scottish bands like Shooglenifty and The Chair.

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Aye, i realised before i typed up the question that both terms, Irish and Scottish traditional music, are painted with broad swathes of generality, and i hoped not to imply that Scottish music is a homogenous bauble... i'm listening to Old Blind Dogs now and i appreciate that theres more than one spice on that Scotch egg.

    So perhaps, for a start if someone can head me off with some information on what are the main Scottish musical regions?

    I appreciate that there are a host of connections between Irish and Scottish musics, history and geography colluded for this to be inevitable. But, the kernel i'm looking for is what distinguishes each from the other, for surely each has its own unique features?

    For instance, Dagger mentions the Strathspey and as far as i can tell thats a form thats not often used in Irish circles.

    So thats one thing for me to explore...

    Another point brought up is the influence that the pipes have had on the conditioning of Scottish music, i can only wonder if the same holds true for Irish music?

    From what i know the Uillean pipes suffered a near fatal decline in popularity so i can only wonder how extensive their influence is surely not on the same par as the pipes in Scotland?

    A thing i have noticed myself, though i don't know how true this is, is that Scottish bands are not shy in their use of drums and percussion, where as Irish music tends to grudgingly tolerate bodhrans. I know, again this is rather general, Moving Hearts had their drums and all...

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Scotch vs. Whiskey? Before Breakfast?
    Chuck

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Coming from Irish music myself, I have learned that Scotland has - beside the adoption of Irish-style pub sessions and the cross-transfer of a few tunes - a rich and complicated music tradition, based on the piper's standard tune set system of march, strathspey and reel. Quite remote from the cliche of the piper, standing on a hill alone, wearing nothing under his kilt (which is not true, all pipers wear socks under their kilt), this music is frequently done in orchestra-like settings of quite many fiddlers and a piano, the so-called strathspey and reel societies.

    I once had the honor of inadvertently stumbling into a rehearsal of one on Orkney (not that the Orcadians see themselves as Scottish...). They invited me to sit down with them and were very interested in my OM (apparently not too well known in this genre, that much to say about mandolins). I tried to accompany along with doublestops and found out that the chords of that music are completely different from those of Irish tunes. It was a friendly and relaxed atmosphere, but I felt totally alien, music-wise.
    In the meantime, I have caught up just a little bit and can now play one of the standard pieces of their repertoire: Hector the Hero.

    Oh, and as for drums - let's not forget that the Irish are poets, but the Scots are warriors. Pipe band music has a strong link to warfare, where drums come quite naturally, I think.
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    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Try listening to one tune that is commonly played by different styles of playing. Miss McLeods Reel for example is played by Scottish and Irish and Appalachian Old Time, French Canadian, and even Cajun musicians. The timing of the ornaments in Scottish is a bit more 'clipped' than in Irish music. You'll hear that right away. Kevin Burke does the tune on his Open House album in a set with an Old Time tune called Lost Indian and he does an interesting mix of Old Time / Irish bowing. It is not exactly 'pure' Irish style but he sure has fun with it. Just one example.
    Good listening.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Pub sessions, by the way, are much governed by pipers as well - not highland pipes, of course, but they have an incredible variety of indoor versions, mainly smallpipes and border pipes. I attended a session once in Uig (on Skye), with two fiddlers, a guitar player and one round merry fellow with bellows-driven border pipes. The fiddles were inaudible and the guitar player and I had to bang chords at maximum power to be faintly heard beside those pipes. Some of the tunes were of Irish origin, but modified to make do with the limited pitch range of the pipes.
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    Registered User Jim MacDaniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by CES View Post
    Scotch vs. Whiskey? Before Breakfast?
    In Ireland and the US, we have Whiskey before breakfast. If you're in Scotland or Canada, you would have Whisky before breakfast.
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    I have noticed that Scottish musicians tend to play hornpipes faster than Irish musicians -- and much faster than Welsh. This may have to do with the different ways they're danced in the different cultures. I've heard many more polkas and waltzes from Irish than from Scottish players. And I haven't heard the 9/8 "slip jig" rhythm in Scottish playing.

    Some of the Scottish fiddle pieces, like Skinner's, are as difficult as anything I've heard played. Check out The Mathematician, e.g.
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Whiskey is more than just a breakfast drink...

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Re: the Scottish influence on the Donegal style of playing - I saw a great documentary about the Donegal style and they talked to a fiddle player who mentioned the influence of the pipes and then demonstrated a technique for de-tuning the fiddle so as to replicate (kind of) the sound of bagpipes - it was awesome! If I can find the link for the documentary I'll post it here...

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    ..."I haven't heard the 9/8 "slip jig" rhythm in Scottish playing. "

    I learned a couple of Scottish slip jigs from Tony Cuffe when I studied with him. "In Dispraise of Whiskey" and I Hae A Wife o' My Ain" which I believe has words put to it by Robert Burns. If there's 2, there's bound to be more.
    Steve

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    My 2-cent impression on this:

    The heart of Irish music is the wind instruments - flutes, Uillean pipes, whistle; Scottish music has the Highland pipes and the fiddles at its core.

    The alpha instruments almost always influence the phrasing and ornamentation of all the other instruments. Highland piping, because of the physical nature of their chanter has a these jagged wide-interval gracings (or articulations).

    Irish music is like a well rounded smooth river rock, while Scottish music is more like a jagged piece of granite that fell off of a rock face. That's the analogy that works for me. Smooth, fluid, flute playing vs. jagged warpipes and strathspey-playing fiddles.

    The actual language and the dialects and accents always feed in to the sound of the instruments. Musical instruments phrase similarly to the way the singers sing. If Irish (or Scottish) vocalists all sounded like Ralph Stanley or Nimrod Workman, etc., the fiddlers would sound like Curley Ray Cline or any other player who has the "way back in the hills" sound. If singers sing the "in-between" (non-tempered scale tones), you'll hear that same intonation on the instruments as well.

    Where French is the language, the tunes have a different sound. There's a direct link from the sound of the language to the sound of the music.

    NH

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Torr Head to the Mull of Kintyre, is about 13 miles, though the scheduled ferry from Larne to Stranraer, crosses a bit more of the North Channel ..
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Irish music is like a well rounded smooth river rock, while Scottish music is more like a jagged piece of granite that fell off of a rock face. That's the analogy that works for me. Smooth, fluid, flute playing vs. jagged warpipes and strathspey-playing fiddles.
    Great analogy there. I think it's something you just have to find your way into by listening to good recordings or live performance. The phrase "Scottish Snap" baffled me for a while, but I think I'm starting to recognize it in strathspeys.

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    difference in tone, perhaps.

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Here's a source of Scottish music podcasts.

    http://www.footstompin.com/radio
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    Re: the Scottish influence on the Donegal style of playing - I saw a great documentary about the Donegal style and they talked to a fiddle player who mentioned the influence of the pipes and then demonstrated a technique for de-tuning the fiddle so as to replicate (kind of) the sound of bagpipes - it was awesome! If I can find the link for the documentary I'll post it here...

    Cheers,
    Jill
    A few years ago i was searching through alternate mandolin tunings and so i also had a look at alternate fiddle tunings and i came accross an album by a duo, pipes and fiddle, where the fiddle player, whose name escapes me, had worked in the Irish Musical Archives and had picked up a lot of open tunings from the old field/archival materials, it was a great album... i wish i could remember the name...

    If you ever do find that documentary then please do post that link, i for one am incredibly curious about these things

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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    I've been listening to this stuff (and playing) for a few years. I am just beginning to perceive and identify some of the different styles. Irish, Quebecois, Scottish. Of course, there is the Cape Breton style as well. I have a friend who professes to be a Cape Breton style fiddler. I still really can't tell Cape Breton from anything else. But the more you listen - the more you hear and understand.
    Rob G.
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    One thing I learned in my journeys to the UK ... don't ask that question if you're over there, especially in Scotland!
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    Registered User Jim MacDaniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    If memory serves me well, I believe Ireland hasn't been a part of the UK since 1948.
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Northern Ireland is.

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    Registered User Jim MacDaniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Didn't mean to offend Mick, and sorry if I did -- I was just teasing, as I assumed you knew so (particularly since I saw you are from Milwaukee, with no small presence of an Irish culture there ).
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    Default Re: Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

    Not offended. I take everything at face value, one of my faults.

    But, I've spent a lot of time in England & Scotland over the years and the initial question in Edinburgh would be akin to asking for a fight or a lecture!

    Love & Peace

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