Scales, modes, and chord progressions???

[John Bertotti]

I'm spending time learning scales, working on D now, and chords. Yes this question is beyond my knowledge and current ability but I would still like to know.

That said, scales have modes but how do chord get constructed in different modes, how do you know what chords to use?

[billkilpatrick]

theory is beyond me as well ... what i do is is figure out a melody and then go searching for complementary notes. FFCP is a real boon in this regard. sometimes i have no idea what a chord is called ... i used 5555 in a song just recently and it worked!

[Jim Broyles]

The chords built by stacking two 3rds on top of each note in the major scale remain the same regardless of the mode. In C major, the ii chord (built on D) is minor. In D dorian, which is D to D in the key signature of C major, the F chord is major, just like it is in C. The G is major, the A is minor, etc... Notice this gives you an automatic "flat 7" chord, because the C is major in D dorian and the 7th degree is a minor 7th from the tonic?

[Rob Gerety]

Good question John - and very helpful answer Jim.

[John Bertotti]

Ok modes just sunk in a bit better!,In my head anyway, fingers are still workng on the fret board.

Anyway I get it I think any, second note in any key is the Dorian mode. Example, key of B second note is C so C to C in the key of B is C Dorian or key of E the F# to F# would be F# Dorian or would that be G flat Dorian?

Next question is is there a way to remember the modes in order other then repetitive memory?

[Coffeecup]

I found this thread at thesession.org useful

Modes

[Jim Broyles]

Originally Posted by John Bertotti

Ok modes just sunk in a bit better!,In my head anyway, fingers are still workng on the fret board.

Anyway I get it I think any, second note in any key is the Dorian mode. Example, key of B second note is C so C to C in the key of B is C Dorian or key of E the F# to F# would be F# Dorian or would that be G flat Dorian?

Next question is is there a way to remember the modes in order other then repetitive memory?

Well kinda sorta but not exactly. The C in a B major scale is already sharped, so C# to C# in B's key sig, (5 sharps) would be the Dorian mode there. Since F# and Gb are enharmonic, their respective Dorian modes would sound the same, they would just be written differently for consistency within the music. If the key signature is 4 #'s - E major, it would be F# Dorian. To find Dorian mode easily, just sing the do-re-mi, then start on the re and end on the re an octave higher.

[mandocrucian]

Modes Made Easy

NH

[John Bertotti]

Thanks for the link and info guys! I am realizing maybe this is still a bit over my head. Would it be best to really learn the scales first before digging I. Or learn a scale real good then mode and move on to the next scale? Thanks

[Jim Broyles]

Originally Posted by Jim Broyles

Well kinda sorta but not exactly. The C in a B major scale is already sharped, so C# to C# in B's key sig, (5 sharps) would be the Dorian mode there. Since F# and Gb are enharmonic, their respective Dorian modes would sound the same, they would just be written differently for consistency within the music. If the key signature is 4 #'s - E major, it would be F# Dorian. To find Dorian mode easily, just sing the do-re-mi, then start on the re and end on the re an octave higher.

Edit:
I just realized something. There is no reason to ever refer to a Gb dorian, because if Gb is the second degree of a major scale, it would have to be the Fb major scale. Although theoretically there is a reason to use Fb in notation, one, unless for a twisted and diabolical reason to perplex other musicians, would never compose a piece in Fb major: key signature 6 flats and a double flat!

[Coffeecup]

Originally Posted by John Bertotti

Thanks for the link and info guys! I am realizing maybe this is still a bit over my head. Would it be best to really learn the scales first before digging I. Or learn a scale real good then mode and move on to the next scale? Thanks

When I was taking guitar lessons the teacher set me the task of learning a batch of scales, then later all modal fingering in one hit. I never did manage to absorb it all without confusion. I would suggest getting a good solid grounding on one or two at a time then when you progress to the next scale the differences are easier to recognise.

The style of music you're playing might suggest your approach. For example, I'm learning traditional Irish tunes on the mando so D and G keys get the emphasis. Learning a number of tunes in these keys pretty well teaches those scales and the chords that go with them as you go.

[John Bertotti]

I thought that might be the case. I started putting focus on absolutely knowing where every note is on the fret board. I think that will take me miles. Thanks!

[John McGann]

Originally Posted by Jim Broyles

Edit:
I just realized something. There is no reason to ever refer to a Gb dorian, because if Gb is the second degree of a major scale, it would have to be the Fb major scale. Although theoretically there is a reason to use Fb in notation, one, unless for a twisted and diabolical reason to perplex other musicians, would never compose a piece in Fb major: key signature 6 flats and a double flat!

Sorry to be pedantic, but if you think of how Gb dorian would vary from a Gb major scale, it's a valid row of notes to call Gb dorian, regardless of the fact that the 'parent major scale' is just a theoretical key...thinking of it 'parallel' to the major scale at the starting pitch vs. 'derived' from another major scale...

Anyway I'd rather call it F# dorian, I'm a string player after all and the sharp keys, after all these years, are a little easier to access (intellectually) on the fly when improvising!

[Rob Gerety]

I agree with Coffeecup.

[John Bertotti]

Another thread to print and save.

[Michael Gowell]

Speaking of which...Niles, your explanation referenced above (in the Cafe's archives) is excellent, but when printed comes out in type too tiny to read. Is there a way to print it in a more readable form?

[mandocrucian]

Originally Posted by Michael Gowell

Speaking of which...Niles, your explanation referenced above (in the Cafe's archives) is excellent, but when printed comes out in type too tiny to read. Is there a way to print it in a more readable form?

I would just copy the text and paste it into a Word document, where you can then manipulate the text size, font, margins, select the most sensibile page breaks, etc. to your preferences.

NH

[bobby bill]

Just to be clear in case someone is scratching their head, I believe G-flat Dorian would have seven flats and one double flat in the key signature.

[DougC]

From a practical point of view John, I would memorize general things about modes. Dorian is the most common. And knowing that the modal pattern for that is just a step below, i.e. E dorian uses D. Irish music and other styles use E dorian and A dorian. Get to recognize thoes sounds while listening. You don't need to play everything but you do need to know how they sound in recordings.

[Jim Broyles]

Originally Posted by bobby bill

Just to be clear in case someone is scratching their head, I believe G-flat Dorian would have seven flats and one double flat in the key signature.

Well, there are only seven different notes in the scale: G A B C D E F , and one of them is a double flat - the B. The other six are all flat, so I'd say it's six flats and a double flat.

[bobby bill]

Well, there are only seven different notes in the scale: G A B C D E F , and one of them is a double flat - the B. The other six are all flat, so I'd say it's six flats and a double flat.

Now that I've had lunch and can think better - - you are absolutely right.

[Coffeecup]

Originally Posted by John Bertotti

I started putting focus on absolutely knowing where every note is on the fret board. I think that will take me miles. Thanks!

That was another problem I had. A tip found on one of the forums was to start off by just learning what notes are on the frets with dots.

[John Bertotti]

Coffeecup I am actually making progress with it and it is helping. Just never seems to sink in fast enough!

[manwithnoname]

Here's a tip I learned from Gary Burton in a jazz vibraphone masterclass that helped me a bit to organize modes in my head better. Most times you see the modes organized according to corresponding major scale degree:

C- Ionian or Major
D- Dorian
E- Phrygian
F- Lydian
G- Mixolydian
A- Aolian or Minor
B- Locrian

And that works well to help understand how to construct them. But another way of looking at modes that has helped me when figuring out what to play is to organize them by tonality from "brightness" to "darkness" or "majorness" to "minorness." This helped me tremendously in figuring out how to shade a phrase brighter or darker. Here's how that would work using the key of C again:

F- Lydian
C- Ionian or Major
G- Mixolydian
D- Dorian
A- Aolian
E- Phrygian
B- Locrian

Notice the circles of 5ths arrangement, and that you simply flatten an additional scale degree as you progress downwards. As a side note, this also helped me to get a sense of subdominant vs. dominant tonality. That's another discussion, though.

Anyway, hope this helped- YMMV.

[groveland]

After the hows, whys and wherefores, I toss the notes and focus on the intervals that identify each mode. It's really the intervals that make the mode. (Plus, for practical purposes, that bypasses the note naming exercises, key signatures, etc., unless someone throws a pop quiz.) The intervals are the same for a given mode regardless of tonic.

w-w-h-w-w-w-h Ionian
w-h-w-w-w-h-w Dorian
h-w-w-w-h-w-w Phrygian
w-w-w-h-w-w-h Lydian
w-w-h-w-w-h-w Mixolydian
w-h-w-w-h-w-w Aeolian
h-w-w-h-w-w-w Locrian

Notice the interval rotation.