Why hide glue?

[Bill Snyder]

Originally Posted by PT66

Lets say the task is a builder that doesn't do enough building to have hot hide glue.

How much building to you need to do to have hot hide glue? I ask because it can't be the cost and whether you build one a year or every two years or build ten a year you still have to make the batches the same way. There are several alternatives to the high priced glue pots.
Order some hide glue, get a Little Dipper miniature crock pot and practice with it. I got my Little Dipper from Goodwill for $5 or less.

[Mario Proulx]

I visit Value Village, a second hand store of sorts, often, and have purchased Little Dipper crock pots for $1 to $2. I think I have 5 now. Yet my original Little Dipper is something like 5 years old and still working perfect. methinks that I have a lifetime's worth of glue pots <lol>

Frank Ford has neat ideas for users who need just a wee bit of hide glue at a time. The dry glue lasts indefinitely, so it surely isn't a cost issue. One pound of hide glue costs about the same as a bottle of Titebond or such, yet has no shelf life limit. In fact, while explaining hot hide glue to one person, he lit up and said "so, you use hide glue to save money!". God Bless his widow....

[Kentuckyken]

The biggest problem I have with hide glue is my dog sits and begs when I heat it up. I usually have to give him a little taste once in a while, good for his diareahahaha.....

[jlsmandolin1952]

If ya think about it, those old violin makers would probably have given their (whatever), to have some of the modern day glues available today?
John

[sunburst]

If ya think about it, those old violin repairmen would probably have given those makers plenty of grief for using some of the modern day glues available today?

Actually, violin family instrument makers are about the only ones that have stayed with hide glue all along, and part of the reason is the dogmatic traditionalism that tends to be passed down among violin makers and their teachers. Makers of guitars and other instruments nearly abandoned the use of hide glue for years because of modern adhesives, their convenience and ease of use, and all the "propaganda" about the superiority of modern adhesives over the the old technology that is hide glue. It is only recently that the virtues of hide glue are being rediscovered, and now it tends to be thought of as a "deluxe" way of building; at least some companies use it's current desirability among the buyers as a way to charge more for using it, though it used to be their standard, so the "hype" can go both ways.

Things like this go on all the time. Leather was almost completely replaced by the "superior" vinyl for upholstery, polyester and nylon almost completely replaced wool and cotton in clothing, but in each case we eventually realize that the "superiority" of modern products over the tried and true is sometimes hype and "sales speak" and realize that the tried and true have their place among the newer products, and sometimes they are still "better".

[Jim Hilburn]

Since I'm not making glue joints all day and I only need hot glue occasionally I've gotten to where I first fill a jar with hot tap water and then heat that in the microwave for a couple of minutes. I still pour it in my crockpot but I don't even plug it in.
My glue is in a spice bottle in the frig and I nuke it for 10-20 seconds depending on how much is there and then put it into the hot water. I've usually brought the water right up to the 145 mark and I do my gluing within 5 minutes of starting the whole process.

[jlsmandolin1952]

Back in the days of the old luthiers, I believe they had 2 choices of glue. Hide glue and Hide glue?
I agree with alot of the responses, and as well, when I restore an old violin, I still use hide glue myself, along with white glues. Depending on what I'm gluing.
John

[Ed Lee]

Just a short comment: "Hide Glue" is often sold as "Rabbit skin glue", not that all hide glues originate from a rabbit source as other animal hides are also converted to such. So far, my only utilization of a hide glue was to produce a stipple effect for improved hand grip ... nothing at all to relate to a musical instrument. Correction - I did use it to bond boards in a table top in school workshop 60 years ago.

[sunburst]

Rabbit glue is usually called rabbit glue. Here's a quote from Frank Fords frets.com:

"Hide glue is derived from the collagen found in animal hides. It is very similar to the gelatin we eat and is not toxic. In the U.S. edible gelatin is made from pork skins and hide glue from beef hides."

Frank has done his research and knows his glue.

[Rick Turner]

I just posted this over at the Australia/New Zealand Luthiers' Forum:

Glues I use in lutherie, where I use them, and a bit about why.

Hot hide glue
Center seams for tops and backs
Gluing braces to tops and backs
Bridges on acoustic instruments
Kerfing for acoustic guitars
Tops to sides on acoustic guitars

Traditional, and still a favorite for many lutherie jobs. May have tonal benefits because of how hard it cures. Has better heat resistance than Titebond and other “carpenters’ glues”. Very low cold creep. Only good for well fit joints. Reversible with moist heat. New glue reconstitutes old so good in repairs of previous HHG glue work.

LMI white glue
Peghead scarf joint
Most assembly of semi-hollow guitar bodies

This glue (I believe it to be a polyvinyl acetate..PVA) has the convenience of Franklin Titebond and other “carpenters’ glues”, yet cures much harder and seems to have some of the favorable qualities of hot hide glue. It is known for low “cold creep”, a possible real factor with regard to tone and the need for neck resets on acoustic guitars.

WEST Epoxy
Laminating necks
Fingerboard joints
Pore filling

Developed initially for the purpose of making cold molded yachts by the Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique. Cures hard and very clear; great for bonding difficult to glue woods; does not introduce water into the glue line; joints can be taken apart with heat if need be.

Franklin Polyurethane
Center block to tops on semi hollow Renaissance guitars
Laminating layered “skate boards” for “back strap” peghead overlays

I generally do not use any water with the PU glue, and so it’s great for gluing the centerblocks onto cedar, spruce, or other wood tops as the glue line does not telegraph through very much. With peghead overlays, again, the lack of water makes for a stable layup without subsequent shrinkage as you’d get with the LMI white glue or HHG.

Thin Superglue
Frets
Inlay dots
Some polyester finish repair
Some binding work
Some quick repairs

Take care with accelerator as it can cause foaming of the glue. Works well with baking soda as a temporary nut slot filler when the slots are too deep.

Thick Superglue
Inlay
Some binding work
Quick repairs
Making jigs and fixtures
Bonding carbon fiber to wood

Duco and other acetone based glues
Binding (plastic/celluloid)

[fishtownmike]

I just want to state I build instruments and I am NOT a woodworker. I am a wood artisan. I don't use hide glue. I prefer LMI's instrument makers glue but i am also planing on trying fish glue....Mike

[Mario Proulx]

In the U.S. edible gelatin is made from pork skins and hide glue from beef hides.

Regular Mulligan & Higgins(spelling?) hide glue is beef, while their high clarity is pork. either one is available in all strength grades, only difference being the slight color of regular and the nearly clear color of the high clarity glues. I began on regular and switched to high clarity when I bought my barrel in 2000. They're about the same to work with, but apart from the clarity/lack of, I'd argue the smell of the high clarity is much milder, and very pleasing, also.

[bryce]

The hide glue I use is from LMI. I don't know if its beef or pork. Might grill some this afternoon and see if I can tell.

[Mario Proulx]

Is it clear and transparent? If not, it's regular(most likely). A one inch thick, jelled lump(I make a one cup batch of glue at a time, let it gel, and cut it into small cubes to freeze) of high clarity glue is only slightly amber, and I can read a newspaper through that one inch lump. There's no advantage to the glue other than it being as invisible as possible, especially on spruce joins, but I figured since I was buying a lifetime's worth, I may as well ante up for the pretty stuff

[Rick Turner]

Pork glue mandolins are trafe...

[D.E.Williams]

Originally Posted by Mario Proulx

I began on regular and switched to high clarity when I bought my barrel in....

Mario, leave it to you to buy a barrel full of the stuff !

[Mario Proulx]

T'was a bargain! Can't resist a good bargain