Made in USA, but what does it really mean.

[Timleo]

I've been playing Mando for about eh, two months maybe. I have my Breedlove Quartz FF, which I love, and I'm progressing naturally. When I bought it, my main concern was to find something made in the states. But what does that mean?

I was deciding between this FF, and an A style Collings, both made in the US, the Collings being somewhere in Texas I think, and the FF in Oregon. So what did I pay for?

Was my mandolin hand carved in some ways? Was it just built by a machine and glued together in mass US production? Other than what looks to be impeccable craftsmanship, what did I pay for? I know I know, solid wood and all that, ebony finger board yadda yadda. But is my model so far at the bottom of the barrel, that it was just built by machine, in the US? I know the Breedlove Atlas series guitars are built in korea or something, but have a final US inspection check. And the Quartz series mando's are the "cheapest" of their lines, with prices varying in each.

I guess I'm just hoping I didn't pay $1,500 for nothing. I love it yes, but if I knew how it was made in some way, I might get some closure to my misgivings.

[Chris Biorkman]

Yes, yours is made in the US. Some makers make mostly by hand, some (including Collings don't). If you like it then why would you care? Generally speaking, the loyalty to American made instruments has resulted from the fact that imports were once poorly made. That is becoming less and less the case as time progresses.

[Mike Bunting]

Can you play the mandolin, i.e. is it playable? If so. why the misgivings? Why would you say that it might be nothing if it wasn't made in the states by americans?

[Chris Biorkman]

Just for a point of reference, I have two high end mandolins. My Ellis was made with both CNC and human hands and the result is absolute perfection in workmanship. My Kimble was made without the aid of machines and while it certainly is a nice looking instrument, it doesn't quite have the build perfection as the other. If I could only have one, which one would it be? Depends on what day you ask me. Don't get too caught up in the way it was made as long as the result is good.

[Big Joe]

Essentially all mandolins are made with machines. The days of starting with a log and hand hewing an instrument from it are long over. Builders will make the use of the machines they have at their disposal for at least a portion of the work. Many will use machines...cnc or duplicarvers...to get the tops and backs to rough dimensions and then carve them from there. It saves a LOT of time and needless work and allows the builder to put his time in the areas that truly need his attention. Some makers will even use the cnc to get the dimensions they want and don't put much time on final graduations. Some will bend their own rims...some get them already bent. Some will carve their own necks, some will buy them rough carved and finish them. Some will get them quite a bit farther down the process.

There are many things a builder has to decide. How much hand work is needed to accomplish his/her final product. What kind of woods should they use. What kind of adhesives. What kind of hardware. What kind of inlay. What kind of binding. What kind of bracing. What kind of neck joint. What fingerboard or headstock overlay. What kind of dimensional carving do they want. What kind and size of f hole or oval hole...or do they want a round hole? What color do they want. What kind of finish. All these areas have to be clearly in the mind of the builder before they can complete a project and in most cases, these decisions need to be made before the first bit of work is started.

Any of these areas will affect the final outcome both in tone and appearance. While we may each have our own personal preference, there is no right or wrong. The outcomes will not be the same but that does not make it wrong. It will just be different. If two builders took the same articles and did things the same way and finished them the same the end result would likely be different in both appearance and tone. The individual touches from each luthier would give that instruments its own charachter.

The made in USA is important to many of us because we want to continue to build our economy. In addition, most of the better builders are located in the USA. Saying that, there are some wonderful builders from elsewhere. Let's not forget Steve Gilchrist, Mr. Sumi, Lebeda, and others I cannot remember at the moment. Still, there are more builders on our part of the planet who have developed thier skills and have the opportunity to share building information with each other than most other places on the planet. In addition, there are more mandolin players and buyers in the USA than elsewhere so the market is larger. This stimulates more builders to get into the business.

While I have a preference for American made products, I still think finding the instrument that speaks to the individual is far more important than the name on the headstock, the signature on the label, or the place it was made. I have been impressed with "The Loar" mandolins of late...especially for the money. That has opened my eyes to the quality of product available from other areas. These mandolins are designed and the actual building overseen by American luthiers to ensure the final product is similar to what the mandolin market is expecting on this side of the pond.

Like everyone here, I have my opinions about certain mandolins and certain builders. There are some I would love to have and some that don't really impress me at all. I certainly won't detail any of that in a public forum. Still, each of us has our preferences and the really important thing is to find the one that touches our soul and heart and makes us want to play. Yes, that may change as time and taste and ears develop, but at any stage just find what floats your boat and you will be happy. Oh....and then get it set up really, really good. I have an idea where you might get that done .

[Caleb]

The "Made in the USA" thing can get complicated further by the fact that many American companies are selling the instruments that are being made somewhere else with their brand name on it. So, in a sense, buying an instrument from one of these companies is still supporting America, on a corporate level, making the purchase still fuel our our economy. But the actual worker who earned the wage for making the instrument lives on another continent. Some tend to think that Made in China (or wherever) means that all of the money associated with that instrument went to China (or wherever), but many times only a part of it does.

For what it's worth, I have a USA mandolin (I made it) and a made in China mandolin. I like them both.

[Dave Cowles]

Caleb is spot on. My handmade (one-off, luthier built F-5) mandolin is one of the best sounding I and many others have heard. It is lacking in fit and finish issues, partly because it is handmade. My Rover RM75, OTOH, is made in China and is a product of Saga, a US company, and is no doubt built with considerable automation. It actually plays better than my handmade mando, likely more a function of setup than anything else, and looks better under close scrutiny. Both are a joy to me, and I couldn't care less in what country they were built. Enjoy your Breedlove and practice, practice, practice.

Rule #1. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Rule #2. It's all small stuff.

Dave

[allenhopkins]

The realities of globalization and the expansion of instrument production to Asia and Eastern Europe, mean that it's almost impossible to buy a new US-made mandolin in the low and mid-price range. No more American made Harmony, Kay, Regal instruments. Same thing's true of almost any other kind of musical instrument -- string, brass, wind, keyboard -- that you can name.

Getting up into four figures, you start to have a wide range of choices among the higher-end imports and US-made instruments. This is a happy development for those buying in that range; never have there been so many choices! Country of origin may be one of your criteria. All other things being equal, I would choose to buy a domestic product. Unfortunately, seldom are all other things equal.

When one gets up into the higher price range, most of the choices are among domestic manufacturers and individual luthiers, though there are a few overseas producers of exceptionally fine instruments (Big Joe has mentioned a few in his post). What tools they use to make their mandolins, varies from producer to producer, as Joe states. But you won't be getting a "no handwork" factory product if you can spend five figures.

I think that the first criteria most of us apply are price and quality, with country of origin coming in after those. I surely do wish that there were more domestic producers of entry-level and second-level instruments, so that we could support them. But when the shirt on my back and the car in my driveway are both made in Asia, I resign myself to the realities of a globally interdependent economy.

Later: OOPS!!

[MikeEdgerton]

And that might better be a question for another forum. It could be considered a hot button issue here.

[Dagger Gordon]

Made in USA means exactly that. It is not a matter of whether it was hand carved.

There is an implicit suggestion that if it's not made in the US it's a factory made thing from China or Korea, but its also worth noting that there are a number of non American builders who I understand do build by hand such as those in the Czech Republic. That's not to mention luthiers in Italy (who Grisman uses), Australia (arguably the top maker), etc etc.

[delsbrother]

Has the OP asked this question to Breedlove? Or on the Breedlove forum? Perhaps you can get a more exact answer about how much "hand work" went into your FF in those places.

..that is, if you were really looking for an answer.

[mzuch]

The days of starting with a log and hand hewing an instrument from it are long over.

It is my understanding that Brian Dean does this. I saw a photo of the Walnut log that became the back and sides of my L&H style mandolin. Does Canada count as overseas?

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't think anyone is going to get a picture of Brian with a buck saw hand cutting that log into boards. There are other luthiers that resaw their own wood, I don't think any of them do that without the aid of some power tools.

[Big Joe]

Let's further complicate the "Made in USA" issue just a bit. Many of the woods and parts used and considered standard are from a different country. Does that mean they are not made in USA? Yes, we do have a global economy and there are many good luthiers hand carving and building outside the USA. They may actually do more hand work than most US luthiers. These instruments come from Europe, China, Japan, Australia, North America...

A good mandolin is a good mandolin no matter where it comes from. It is not so important where the mandolin is built but how good the mandolin that is built actually is. The art of lutherie seems to be getting better all the time in all parts of the world. What we now consider second tier builders are making better instruments than anyone was just 30 years ago. It truly is the golden age of lutherie!

[Willie]

There is a commercial on TV that shows a fellow throwing away everything in his house that wasn`t made in America...The only thing he had left was a Sharps rifle, still made in the US 100% with American parts....How about some Autos that are made here but all of the profits go over to Japan, those are American made but to me they aren`t "American"...NASCAR has allowed Japanese cars to run in the sprint cup races , made in the US so they are eligible....I don`t own a foreign made mandolin but do have a Japan made guitar that is a number one in my opinion, of course it hs been altered somewhat..

Great post with some great opinions and ideas....Willie

[Tim2723]

I have a banjo 'Made in the USA'. It contains 100% foreign parts, but was assembled in Florida. Nothing, not even the rivets that hold the handle on the case, was made in the US. It's still a very nice banjo though.

Somehow I doubt that the mandolin industry contributes to any nation's economy enough to cause the collapse of civilization, so I don't worry about where they come from.

[Steevarino]

As far as I can tell, the OP brought up two topics, one being the country of origin, and the other being the method of manufacture. These are two reasonable things to consider. Personally, I think I would have considered them before the purchase, not after, if they were important enough for me to post on a public forum.

The country of origin topic is close to me, because I deal with it on a daily basis. A bit on the mandolin side, but more with our resophonic guitars. There are two very popular reso's that I sort of "went up against" with my lowest price reso. guitar. Both of these other companies have all their parts made overseas, China, I think. Mine are made here in the U.S. It's hard to compete dollar for dollar, as it cost quite a bit more to do business in the U.S. than in China. So, my guitars cost a bit more. I have found that "Buying American" is important to a lot of people. I have also found that this camp shrinks in size when it comes time to open the wallet. I'm not saying this is bad, it's just something that happens. I think, these days, most consumers are aware, or can easily learn of the country a product is made, and then make their choice accordingly. It does get a little cloudy when some products are pretty much made in China and then assembled here. How does one officially classify that?

About how the instrument was made, I think that far fewer players care about that. I work with a lot of builders on the parts side of my business. There seems to be a fairly even split between those that are somewhat automated (CNC, or whatever) and those who build strictly by hand. By the time a mandolin is done, all you see and touch is the handmade part. Most automation (shy of robotic finishing and/or buffing) involves whitewood work that will endure plenty of hand-work after it comes off the CNC. I think this is the case, no matter what country the instrument was made in. I know this is certainly the case in our shop.

Finally, the OP's tag line is interesting....

"Work is what you do for other people, Art is what you do for yourself." - Stephen Sondheim

Well, if that's the case, get yourself one of our new mandolin kits and build a mandolin for yourself. You'll be performing some Art, and you'll know darn well where your mandolin was made!