Replacing frets - small to large

[Tbone]

Howdy folks, this question has been brewing for some time now....

So, my Red Diamond F5 is about 7 years old now, and I think the frets are about ready for replacement. I'm going to try to just get them re-crowned, but they've already been reworked once, and the dents are pretty deep...not sure if they can be re-worked again. They have Loar-size frets.

I'm thinking about getting them upsized to something bigger when they're relplaced. I really liked the size of the frets on my old Weber - anyone know what size frets weber uses? Banjo frets?

Anyways, what are the consequences of upsizing my frets? Will I need a new fingerboard? I expect the playability to improve a bit, not that it's bad now.

Also, I was thinking of just upsizing the first 12 or so frets - will this present any issues? Intonation?

If anyone's done this procedure, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks.

[hank]

I believe Weber's are .080" and generally with a 10" radius. My Goldrush has a flat board with tiny little frets(couldn't find specs on the size)that seemed too small at first but I'm beginning to like them better with time.

[Ted Eschliman]

Highly recommended: Mods Royale

[Gail Hester]

Tbone, there a few issues related to upsizing your frets from vintage wire to something larger. First, the fret tang size will likely be larger on the new wire and require that the fret slots be enlarged a bit to fit properly. You will also likely need a new nut since the new/larger frets will be taller. Lastly, I recommend you have all of the frets replaced so that the board can be leveled and so that you are not mixing fret/slot sizes.

[hank]

Ted I couldn't find your review of your 7" radius and larger frets in the provided links. The frets discussion link within the link came up with the forbidden dialog. I'm very interested in not only your review of the frets(what size, no dimensions given of those removed or those installed, and yes size does matter )but also the 7" radius. How do these more pronounced radius's affect chording etc. I like my Ferns 10" but would like to try 7" or more.
For ref. what is the average violin/bowed instrument etc. radius?

[Big Joe]

I would caution against too radical of a radius. It may not be quite as comfortable as you wish. If you want bigger frets that does not require a new fingerboard...assuming the current one is in good condition. Any refret should have the fingerboard planed and the fret slots reslotted for whatever size frets you want in. I recommend having them set with superglue when they are put in. That helps keep them from coming loose or pulling up. You may not want to go too big on the frets if you are used to the vintage size. It may be too big of a jump. There are about three sizes usually used in mandolins. I can't tell you off hand what the dimensions are, but the vintage (Loar) size, a medium size, and a banjo size are used with great success. The banjo size is similar to Martin vintage guitar fret wire.

You should ask yourself why you want larger frets, and what you hope to accomplish. If longer fret life is your goal, just going to larger frets does not mean you will accomplish that goal. If it is for playing comfort, then you should try a few for more than a few minutes with the size you are contemplating. Yes, if you don't like the new frets they can be replaced, but that is a pretty high cost for indecision. These are what I would recommend before having any work done. Just know for sure what you want and be sure you are confident the steps you take will get you there.

[hank]

When I first got my Gibson Goldrush I was not liking the smaller frets but after playing it a while I've begun to like it better. I've been playing both my mandolins back to back to compare the 10" radius and .080" fret's on my weber with my Gibson's flat board with (guessing).040" frets. Crazy as it sounds I'm beginning to like the Gibson more than the Weber now. I can't tell where the radius is doing much one way or the other and the smaller frets are nice once you get used to them.

[jim_n_virginia]

Ward Elliott replaced my frets 6 months ago with large stainless steel banjo frets. I am really happy with the results.

Also 6 months of hard playing almost daily and not a dent on the frets at all. I am heavy handed (I'm working on it! LOL) and I can wear out frets in no time. The SS is really holding up very well.

Also my mandolin just seems a lot easier to play but I also had the fret board sanded flat, new nut and a great set up so it is probably a combination of all. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

[Tbone]

Cool. I dropped my mando off on tuesday for new larger frets. It'll be done friday - it better, cause I have a gig on saturday. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

[yankees1]

Originally Posted by hank

I believe Weber's are .080" and generally with a 10" radius. My Goldrush has a flat board with tiny little frets(couldn't find specs on the size)that seemed too small at first but I'm beginning to like them better with time.

Anyone using .092 fret wire size?

[Fretbear]

Larger than traditional sized frets (such as Stewmac's #0147 @ .080" X .040" or similar) sound and play great on a modern (or vintage) mandolin and I personally consider that size the new modern standard. They give a bigger note, and can be milled smooth more times than their tiny counterparts can. In my experience (when properly milled) their intonation is at least equal if not better, in spite of some people saying that they don't intonate as well, which I have never found, and I am very particular on that topic. Skaggs used to say he liked smaller mandolin frets for a number of reasons but now has big ones on his Loar. As far as radii go, a 12" radius can be considered minimal, so slight that one has to check carefully to verify that the board actually has one. This does not mean that it should be bigger than that as it works very nicely, but is given just an indicator that 7", for instance, is quite extreme and is on the other end of the spectrum.

[8ch(pl)]

The point I wonder about is this does the higher fret require more tension to draw it down to the fret board Does this cause more wear?

My Vega mandolin banjo is 90 years old, has tiny frets and they are not grooved. My Mid Missouri needed the first 9 frets replaced when it was about 11 years old. I don't know how much the Vega was played and the Mid Missouri was played a lot.

Being able to resurface high frets more times is OK, but would not mean that the nut would need to be swapped to bring the action down? If the nut had the bottom surface sanded to compensate, then a new nut would be again required at refret.

[jim_n_virginia]

Originally Posted by 8ch(pl)

The point I wonder about is this does the higher fret require more tension to draw it down to the fret board Does this cause more wear?

My Mid Missouri needed the first 9 frets replaced when it was about 11 years old.

but would not mean that the nut would need to be swapped to bring the action down? .

The higher fret means it plays easier, at least mine does. If someone is mashing the string down so hard you are changing the intonation then they need to learn to lighten their touch. Watch Thile play he frets just hard enough to get the note just a light touch.

I have been told by peope who's opinions I highly respect to NEVER do a partial refret. Maybe dress them up a little if they are not that bad but if you change any frets change them all. I have always followed that rule.

And no you do not need to mess with the nut normally unless there is something wrong. You make your adjustments on the bridge. When I got my new stainless steel banjo frets the main difference I noticed is that it played easier. But the difference in height from reg frets and banjo frets is so small you can't tell playing up near the nut.

I am amazed at how hard stainless steel is. Been like 8 months of hard playing and not even any kind of indentation on the fret. I may never need a refret again I hope! LOL!

[Rob Gerety]

Love to see a nice picture of your finger board Jim.

[Big Joe]

Fret size does not make it play easier. Personal preference determines whether it is easier or not. Some like larger frets and find them easier, some small frets. I personally like the smaller frets and do NOT like banjo sized fretwire on a mandolin. Just a personal preference. Intonation in a good player is not affected IF the frets...whatever the size...are properly crowned so you have a point of intonation rather than a large flat area that does not give a clean break for the intonation point.

If you push the string to the fingerboard you may be pulling the string out of tune, and worse, you will likely slow yourself down. You will have problems with your hands cramping over time and speed in moving around the boards. Learn to use the minimal amount of pressure to get a clean note no matter the size fret or string and you will become faster. Part of this comes from not gripping the neck with the hand at all. The thumb on the back of the neck should be for balance and not for grip. If you are gripping learn to play without holding the neck with your thumb and you will find you will improve your playing speed, accuracy, and intonation...with a bit of practice.

When a refret is done it is sometimes needed to replace the nut. It depends on how far the original has been slotted to accomadate the previous frets. However, most of us include the needed nut work in the price of the refret. If it needs replacing we do that, if it does not we don't. As important is matching the saddle radius to the fingerboard when doing the refret. Especially if you are going from a flat board to a radius board. As Jim mentioned above, I always do complete refrets and not partial. I posted about that in another post. In any case, many of these choices are very personal and each player will have a different preference for frets, radius, strings, etc. If your preference makes you play more it is certainly the best for you.

Flat or radius is really more a matter of what one gets used to than the actual effect of the radius. If you play radius and that is what you are used to it is not as comfortable to play a flat board. However, if you play a flat board for a while you will find it very comfortable and may not even like the radius again. The same works in reverse. After many years at this I think it is more a function of habit than performance. I have some theories on the effects of each, but that is pretty minimal overall and most players would not realize the difference on their own. The final answer is: whatever makes you love to play is the right thing for you!