How to Orient a Pickup

Bill Snyder · 09-02-2009, 12:51 PM

The Musical Instrument Maker's Forum is having a 100 Dollar Telecaster Challenge. You are to build an electric guitar (or other fretted instrument) for no more than $100.00. I have decided to build a Telecaster inspired mandolin. The problem is I have built a few acoustic instruments but never any electrics. I don't even own an electric and know next to nothing about them.
I purchased a used Kramer J-Bass p.u. and don't know if it will work for a mandolin. If it does do I need to angle it so that the poles are under the strings? That will mean mounting it at about a 52 degree angle as shown in this drawing.
If I don't angle it is will be like the second illustration.

mandroid · 09-02-2009, 01:10 PM

Could mount it on a round disc you could rotate after the job is complete and see what works best .
theres a electric guitar company that makes one like that. [someone knows the builder's name, here, certainly]
Or,
instead get a rail type pickup, it will be less fussy. as the coil is wound around a strip of solid magnetic material rather than individual pieces.
I got an EMG select a Stacked Humbucker , new for about $20 still should keep you in budget.

thistle3585 · 09-02-2009, 01:12 PM

If you have poles then they need to be positioned under the strings. If you need any other parts let me know. I have some spare parts laying around.

Andrew

Bill Snyder · 09-02-2009, 01:30 PM

I do have another question. Is there any reason I can't use a bridge made of wood?
I have been fiddling around with building a metal bridge, some type of hardtail, but I don't see why it can't be a simple wooden bridge. Those I can build without too much trouble.
As I type this, I seem to remember that something gets grounded to the bridge and that would not work with a wooden bridge.

desh · 09-02-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Snyder

I do have another question. Is there any reason I can't use a bridge made of wood?
I have been fiddling around with building a metal bridge, some type of hardtail, but I don't see why it can't be a simple wooden bridge. Those I can build without too much trouble.
As I type this, I seem to remember that something gets grounded to the bridge and that would not work with a wooden bridge.

What would you use as a tailpiece? If you use a metal tailpiece you can ground it.

thistle3585 · 09-02-2009, 01:43 PM

Yes, you can use a wooden bridge but you'd need to ground the tailpiece. If you use a string through design then you can use a plate on the bottom side to hold the string ferrules and ground that plate. The benefit of a hardtail bridge is that you can adjust the intonation.

Bill Snyder · 09-02-2009, 02:02 PM

Yeah I know about the intonation adjustment of the hardtail and I like that, but I can compensate a wooden bridge. I still might make a hardtail, just trying to keep it "cheap" and I have wood.

taboot · 09-02-2009, 02:37 PM

I've never built an instrument before, so take this with a grain of salt.

If you don't end up going with a rail type pickup, I might run the slant of the pickup in the opposite direction as in the first illustration you post. In my experience, the E string loses output, espcially when played or picked up right near the bridge, and the G only gets bigger the further you to towards the 12th fret. It would certainly look a bit unconventional, but my guess is that output and tone would be much more consistent and enjoyable across the four (or eight) strings that way.

Christian

Cliff D · 09-02-2009, 04:40 PM

Whilst I do not know how well it would work I would second Taboot's suggestion for exactly the reason he states. An earlier contributor made an interesting comment about mounting a pup so that it could be rotated: that would be a novel way of adjusting tone - I did not know it had already been done on guitar - (could this a production model, or a prototype?). Would be interested to learn how this works out; I'm sure a few members will be willing to do some testing for you!

mikeomando · 09-02-2009, 04:47 PM

+1 for Taboot's wisdom. Look at the Michael Stevens electric mandolin on emando.com (or maybe even Michael Steven's site). Getting even response across the strings is hard to do. I love the swivel idea, but I've never seen it.

Also, I think you'll give up some sustain using a non metal bridge, but you have to make sacrifices if you're really going to come in under $100 in parts. On the other hand, you could stick some piece of rounded metal (like a section of the shank of a power drill bit) into a wooden bridge to at least get metal at the string contact point.

Having never built any instruments, it sound like a really fun project!

crazymandolinist · 09-02-2009, 04:48 PM

If you're doing a wooden hardtail, then place some copper tape under it and solder the ground to that. I also second using a blade pickup. A Dano lipstick type pickup would work too, as well as half a p bass pickup. Try looking on ebay. I found two pickups for one project, each under ten dollars. A regular strat pickup may work too if you orient the poles just right, I think that's how they are on fender mandolins of today. Good luck!

mikeomando · 09-02-2009, 04:54 PM

Also, it's really nice to think about the distance between the pickup and the strings. If the pup has individual height adjusters for each string, you can adjust after pup is installed. If you don't have individual height adjusters, as on a rail pickup, you might try a temporary install of the pup, string it up and play it, and if the high strings are weaker output than you like, shim the pup so that the E side is closer to the E string than the G side is to the G string.

Bill Snyder · 09-02-2009, 05:32 PM

I might wind my own pickup. Before I got the bass pu I bought some neodymium magnets thinking I might wind my own. I appreciate the input and I will keep you informed.

taboot · 09-02-2009, 06:06 PM

I think we'd all like to see how it turns out, when you're through! Good luck, I have always liked budget projects - it forces one to rely on brain power, instead of wallet power...

Christian

mandroid · 09-02-2009, 08:27 PM

Was thinking of the Turner one {rick?} made for Lindsey Buckingham , the pickup is fitted to a disc, black finished so it kind of looks like a round soundhole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Buckingham

mrmando · 09-02-2009, 08:46 PM

Michael Spalt, a custom builder in L.A., makes e-guitars and e-mandocellos with something called a "Wiper Blade": a pickup with one end that's attached and one end that swivels, so it can be positioned at various angles to the strings. This is certainly a blade pickup and not a pole pickup.

Joel Glassman · 09-07-2009, 08:04 PM

I agree with Christian.
Lower strings on electric mandolins
(especially C strings) tend to be too "boomy".
Orienting the pickup closer to the bridge will help,
because the string has a narrower vibration there.
E strings tend to be "plinky". Orienting the
pickup towards the fingerboard picks up the
E string at a wider vibration point.
IMO this pretty much defines how a mandolin pickup
should be oriented. Strange to look at Emando
and see how often builders do the exact opposite.

nvanlaar · 09-08-2009, 11:59 PM

Late to the party...
A 52d angle *might* dramatically change the tone between the bass and treble sides kind of like having one pickup in the neck position for one course and in the bridge position for the other course, while the middle two might aproximate the middle position. A rail type pickup will give the best results I think (it can still be angled to even out tone if needed). A Danelectro lipstick style might look cool.

bonny · 09-09-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Snyder

Yeah I know about the intonation adjustment of the hardtail and I like that, but I can compensate a wooden bridge. I still might make a hardtail, just trying to keep it "cheap" and I have wood.

Sounds like an original Danelectro type bridge/tailpiece is kinda what you might be leaning towards.

Really easy to make an I think they sound great.

The Dano style lipstick tube pickups don't have individual pole pieces and are the same for the guitars and basses.....I'm sure they'd work fine on a mandolin.

....and they look really cool.

Ronny · 09-10-2009, 05:42 AM

Saga & Kentucky E-mando have a lipstick style pick up, and it works well.

Bill Snyder · 10-04-2009, 10:45 PM

Question. I purchased a twin rail pickup. It looks to me that one of the rails is 5.85 ohms and the other is 6.5 ohms (if I checked them correctly). I am only going to use this pickup. Should this work ok? Where and how should I orient it?
Also a question about wiring it up. There is a red and black wire from one of the rails and a green and white from the other and an uninsulated wire (the ground?). I will have a volume pot, a tone pot and a capacitor. I will have a metal bridge. Can someone tell me how to wire everything?
A wiring schematic might work, but I would rather have written instructions.

Thanks.

Bill Snyder · 10-31-2009, 11:16 PM

I got close but the deadline was midnight eastern time and at three minutes till I still had to at least an hours worth of work to do.
Here is how it stands now. I will post a few completed photos when I get totally done.

Bill.

Cliff D · 11-01-2009, 05:38 PM

Certainly looks nice. Would very much like to give it a try!

taboot · 11-03-2009, 06:24 PM

Bummer about the deadline, I'd love to hear it, sure looks solid!

Christian

mandroid · 11-03-2009, 07:15 PM

Now [scientific principal] you have to build another with a different orientation to test the merits
of one over the other.

Deadline is a bit looser , though, with us, your peer group.

09-02-2009, 12:51 PM	#1
Bill Snyder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Central TX Posts: 4,040	How to Orient a Pickup The Musical Instrument Maker's Forum is having a 100 Dollar Telecaster Challenge. You are to build an electric guitar (or other fretted instrument) for no more than $100.00. I have decided to build a Telecaster inspired mandolin. The problem is I have built a few acoustic instruments but never any electrics. I don't even own an electric and know next to nothing about them. I purchased a used Kramer J-Bass p.u. and don't know if it will work for a mandolin. If it does do I need to angle it so that the poles are under the strings? That will mean mounting it at about a 52 degree angle as shown in this drawing. If I don't angle it is will be like the second illustration. Attached Thumbnails

09-02-2009, 01:10 PM	#2
mandroid coprolite Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy Posts: 6,472	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Could mount it on a round disc you could rotate after the job is complete and see what works best . theres a electric guitar company that makes one like that. [someone knows the builder's name, here, certainly] Or, instead get a rail type pickup, it will be less fussy. as the coil is wound around a strip of solid magnetic material rather than individual pieces. I got an EMG select a Stacked Humbucker , new for about $20 still should keep you in budget. __________________ mandolin wanker Blasphemy is a Victim-Less Crime.

09-02-2009, 01:12 PM	#3
thistle3585 Andrew C. Jerman Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: IN Posts: 1,555	Re: How to Orient a Pickup If you have poles then they need to be positioned under the strings. If you need any other parts let me know. I have some spare parts laying around. Andrew __________________ http://www.crossroadswood.com

09-02-2009, 01:30 PM	#4
Bill Snyder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Central TX Posts: 4,040	Re: How to Orient a Pickup I do have another question. Is there any reason I can't use a bridge made of wood? I have been fiddling around with building a metal bridge, some type of hardtail, but I don't see why it can't be a simple wooden bridge. Those I can build without too much trouble. As I type this, I seem to remember that something gets grounded to the bridge and that would not work with a wooden bridge.

09-02-2009, 01:43 PM	#6
thistle3585 Andrew C. Jerman Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: IN Posts: 1,555	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Yes, you can use a wooden bridge but you'd need to ground the tailpiece. If you use a string through design then you can use a plate on the bottom side to hold the string ferrules and ground that plate. The benefit of a hardtail bridge is that you can adjust the intonation. __________________ http://www.crossroadswood.com

09-02-2009, 02:02 PM	#7
Bill Snyder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Central TX Posts: 4,040	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Yeah I know about the intonation adjustment of the hardtail and I like that, but I can compensate a wooden bridge. I still might make a hardtail, just trying to keep it "cheap" and I have wood.

09-02-2009, 02:37 PM	#8
taboot Is there a "talent" knob? Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 522	Re: How to Orient a Pickup I've never built an instrument before, so take this with a grain of salt. If you don't end up going with a rail type pickup, I might run the slant of the pickup in the opposite direction as in the first illustration you post. In my experience, the E string loses output, espcially when played or picked up right near the bridge, and the G only gets bigger the further you to towards the 12th fret. It would certainly look a bit unconventional, but my guess is that output and tone would be much more consistent and enjoyable across the four (or eight) strings that way. Christian __________________ Electric: 197X Dolan V \| 2002 Ryder EM-44 Acoustic: 1999 Breedlove Columbia \| 1996 Flatiron Mandola Volume: Laney LC15R \| Fender HRD \| Roland AC60 \| Pro DI Effects: Lots

09-02-2009, 04:40 PM	#9
Cliff D Recipient of medication Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: London, UK Posts: 132	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Whilst I do not know how well it would work I would second Taboot's suggestion for exactly the reason he states. An earlier contributor made an interesting comment about mounting a pup so that it could be rotated: that would be a novel way of adjusting tone - I did not know it had already been done on guitar - (could this a production model, or a prototype?). Would be interested to learn how this works out; I'm sure a few members will be willing to do some testing for you! __________________ Sorry madam, but we are fresh out of bull-dogs today!

09-02-2009, 04:47 PM	#10
mikeomando Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 334	Re: How to Orient a Pickup +1 for Taboot's wisdom. Look at the Michael Stevens electric mandolin on emando.com (or maybe even Michael Steven's site). Getting even response across the strings is hard to do. I love the swivel idea, but I've never seen it. Also, I think you'll give up some sustain using a non metal bridge, but you have to make sacrifices if you're really going to come in under $100 in parts. On the other hand, you could stick some piece of rounded metal (like a section of the shank of a power drill bit) into a wooden bridge to at least get metal at the string contact point. Having never built any instruments, it sound like a really fun project!

09-02-2009, 04:48 PM	#11
crazymandolinist Luthierus Amateurius Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Somewhere in Florida Posts: 314	Re: How to Orient a Pickup If you're doing a wooden hardtail, then place some copper tape under it and solder the ground to that. I also second using a blade pickup. A Dano lipstick type pickup would work too, as well as half a p bass pickup. Try looking on ebay. I found two pickups for one project, each under ten dollars. A regular strat pickup may work too if you orient the poles just right, I think that's how they are on fender mandolins of today. Good luck! __________________ "The Beauty of Grace is that it makes life Unfair" - Relient K "THEY'RE HERE!!! THEY'RE HERE!!! the Albino Brain Chiggers!" - Harry from 3rd Rock

09-02-2009, 04:54 PM	#12
mikeomando Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 334	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Also, it's really nice to think about the distance between the pickup and the strings. If the pup has individual height adjusters for each string, you can adjust after pup is installed. If you don't have individual height adjusters, as on a rail pickup, you might try a temporary install of the pup, string it up and play it, and if the high strings are weaker output than you like, shim the pup so that the E side is closer to the E string than the G side is to the G string.

09-02-2009, 05:32 PM	#13
Bill Snyder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Central TX Posts: 4,040	Re: How to Orient a Pickup I might wind my own pickup. Before I got the bass pu I bought some neodymium magnets thinking I might wind my own. I appreciate the input and I will keep you informed.

09-02-2009, 06:06 PM	#14
taboot Is there a "talent" knob? Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 522	Re: How to Orient a Pickup I think we'd all like to see how it turns out, when you're through! Good luck, I have always liked budget projects - it forces one to rely on brain power, instead of wallet power... Christian __________________ Electric: 197X Dolan V \| 2002 Ryder EM-44 Acoustic: 1999 Breedlove Columbia \| 1996 Flatiron Mandola Volume: Laney LC15R \| Fender HRD \| Roland AC60 \| Pro DI Effects: Lots

09-02-2009, 08:27 PM	#15
mandroid coprolite Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy Posts: 6,472	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Was thinking of the Turner one {rick?} made for Lindsey Buckingham , the pickup is fitted to a disc, black finished so it kind of looks like a round soundhole. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Buckingham __________________ mandolin wanker Blasphemy is a Victim-Less Crime.

09-02-2009, 08:46 PM	#16
mrmando Martin Stillion Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 3,802	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Michael Spalt, a custom builder in L.A., makes e-guitars and e-mandocellos with something called a "Wiper Blade": a pickup with one end that's attached and one end that swivels, so it can be positioned at various angles to the strings. This is certainly a blade pickup and not a pole pickup. __________________ Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy! The Priest and the Publicans: Gospel bluegrass out of the box. Emando.com: More than you wanted to know. Donaldson • Rigel • Thormahlen • Andersen • Old Wave • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Roberts • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

09-07-2009, 08:04 PM	#17
Joel Glassman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Southern Maine USA Posts: 255	Re: How to Orient a Pickup I agree with Christian. Lower strings on electric mandolins (especially C strings) tend to be too "boomy". Orienting the pickup closer to the bridge will help, because the string has a narrower vibration there. E strings tend to be "plinky". Orienting the pickup towards the fingerboard picks up the E string at a wider vibration point. IMO this pretty much defines how a mandolin pickup should be oriented. Strange to look at Emando and see how often builders do the exact opposite. Last edited by Joel Glassman; 09-07-2009 at 08:43 PM.

09-08-2009, 11:59 PM	#18
nvanlaar I should be working... Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: K-Town Posts: 55	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Late to the party... A 52d angle might dramatically change the tone between the bass and treble sides kind of like having one pickup in the neck position for one course and in the bridge position for the other course, while the middle two might aproximate the middle position. A rail type pickup will give the best results I think (it can still be angled to even out tone if needed). A Danelectro lipstick style might look cool.

09-10-2009, 05:42 AM	#20
Ronny Registered User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Landrevarzec (Brittany) Posts: 31	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Saga & Kentucky E-mando have a lipstick style pick up, and it works well. __________________ Saga 'Clockwork Orange' Emando Kasuga M50 Anonymous Banjolin "A gentleman is a man who can play the bagpipe and who does not."

10-04-2009, 10:45 PM	#21
Bill Snyder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Central TX Posts: 4,040	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Question. I purchased a twin rail pickup. It looks to me that one of the rails is 5.85 ohms and the other is 6.5 ohms (if I checked them correctly). I am only going to use this pickup. Should this work ok? Where and how should I orient it? Also a question about wiring it up. There is a red and black wire from one of the rails and a green and white from the other and an uninsulated wire (the ground?). I will have a volume pot, a tone pot and a capacitor. I will have a metal bridge. Can someone tell me how to wire everything? A wiring schematic might work, but I would rather have written instructions. Thanks.

10-31-2009, 11:16 PM	#22
Bill Snyder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Central TX Posts: 4,040	Re: How to Orient a Pickup I got close but the deadline was midnight eastern time and at three minutes till I still had to at least an hours worth of work to do. Here is how it stands now. I will post a few completed photos when I get totally done. Bill. Attached Thumbnails

11-01-2009, 05:38 PM	#23
Cliff D Recipient of medication Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: London, UK Posts: 132	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Certainly looks nice. Would very much like to give it a try! __________________ Sorry madam, but we are fresh out of bull-dogs today! Last edited by Cliff D; 11-01-2009 at 05:42 PM. Reason: spelling typo

11-03-2009, 06:24 PM	#24
taboot Is there a "talent" knob? Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 522	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Bummer about the deadline, I'd love to hear it, sure looks solid! Christian __________________ Electric: 197X Dolan V \| 2002 Ryder EM-44 Acoustic: 1999 Breedlove Columbia \| 1996 Flatiron Mandola Volume: Laney LC15R \| Fender HRD \| Roland AC60 \| Pro DI Effects: Lots

11-03-2009, 07:15 PM	#25
mandroid coprolite Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy Posts: 6,472	Re: How to Orient a Pickup Now [scientific principal] you have to build another with a different orientation to test the merits of one over the other. Deadline is a bit looser , though, with us, your peer group. __________________ mandolin wanker Blasphemy is a Victim-Less Crime.