I'd like to be the sixth man in a bluegrass group

[JPL]

Buddy of mine is getting a banjo, and we're talking about getting a bluegrass band together. Looking at the local talent pool, I think we'll have no trouble filling the other customary slots --- guitar, bass, fiddle, mandolin.

Now I could play guitar or mandolin in this group, if needed, but the more I think about it, my dream gig would be sort of a utility man multi-instrumentalist, playing different instruments on different songs. Dobro, banjitar, harmonica, tenor guitar, mandola . . . it would be a chance to indulge my instrument acquisition syndrome, and I sometimes like a touch of the less-traditional instrumentation in my bluegrass.

[Willie]

J P L...One way to look at this idea is that "IF" you decide to do this for money having six members will cut into the money that each of you will make....Right now I have a four piece group and have tried five and sometimes six members but still feel that we can make just as good and much music using just four pieces....Having a dobro and fiddle is nice if they are good pickers, since neither of them have frets they somtimes tend to slide up to the notes and if the singer of the band is not careful he will sing those same flat notes...Of course this is just my opinion but thats what I feel....Having you play different instruments will give you a different sound as the gig progresses and may not be boring to the listeners, I say try it and be realistic about whether it is what you want your sound to be like, also try it with just four or five permenent instruments....Good luck....Willie

[AlanN]

Ah, the John Havlicek of bluegrass, I like it.

As long as you can stick in the 15-ft. jumper and play low post, you should be fine

[mandocrucian]

One way to look at this idea is that "IF" you decide to do this for money having six members will cut into the money that each of you will make....

Instead of all those "tens of dollars" you'll be reduced to playing for "eights of dollars"!

[JPL]

Originally Posted by mandocrucian

Instead of all those "tens of dollars" you'll be reduced to playing for "eights of dollars"!

All of our potential members work for a living and play out of love. If we could do an occasional coffee shop gig and get paid in scones, I would consider it a win.

Most of my professional musical career was with an R&B band that started as a six piece and evolved into an eight piece. The power trios took home more money, but man, I love the sound of a big well-rehearsed band.

[allenhopkins]

JPL, I'm with ya all the way. Having a little "something different" in a bluegrass group, being able to vary the musical texture or add a bit of the unexpected, sounds like a great idea. In all the bands in which I play or have played, I've been a multi-instrumentalist, and it's been great fun.

But, having said that, consider that bluegrass is a genre in which a certain orthodoxy is often expected -- and enforced. It's not that common for BG groups to depart from the Monrovian stereotype as far as instrumentation is concerned. Bill M's disrespect for the Dobro, despite the success Burkett Graves had in the Foggy Mountain Boys, made it a bit of a controversial instrument. If you scroll down a page or two, you'll find prolonged controversial posts on threads discussing whether a bluegrass band could incorporate a cello, or why Ricky Skaggs has three guitarists in his band.

I have jokingly referred to the more fundamentalist bluegrass types as the "Bluegrass Taliban," but there's no doubt that some are quite vigilant in policing the boundaries of the style, and trying to keep out any heterodox experiments. So don't expect universal support for the idea of playing "bluegrass sixth person." I figure if Ronnie McCoury can pull out a mandola for a tune or two, or Skaggs throw in Statman's clarinet on a couple CD cuts, there's room in this big ol' world for a bit of experimentation.

[barry k]

I would only allow a 6th person in the band if he owned an entire sound system, and volunteers to donate it to the cause, he sets up and breaks down every gig by himself , while the rest of us drink a cold one and watch.

[Willie]

Its my turn again...I was asked to sit in with a band one evening that had booked a gig and when I showed up there was seven of us in the band and some played different instruments on different songs, I didn`t mind it but the audience sure did and they said "We thought you guys were traditional bluegrass" so we talked it over during a break and we all stuck to our primary instruments, my opinion of this is the way you advertise your band, if you list it as bluegrass then play bluegrass, if you want to call it something else thats fine but when people pay at the door to listen to bluegrass most of them want to hear the standard instruments that make up bluegrass as we know it from the
50`s...I once sat in with a band that had a sax and I actually enjoyed it for one song, any more than that it got boring to me, I do love a good sax, played in the right format of course...Not evryone agrees on what bluegrass really is so trying differnet things might not be a bad idea until you find out what your audience likes and wants, you can`t satisfy everyone...I have seen banjos plugged into a wah-wah system and thought it was OK, but again, for only one or two songs....Willie

[AlanN]

Hot Rize tried it, discarded it.
Tony Rice tried it, discarded it.

Like hot sauce and sarcasm, a little goes a long way.

[Steve Ostrander]

You got to ask yourself: WWBD?

[Nolan]

I hate trying the co-ordinate all the schedules to figure out when we're going to practice.. what gigs we want to play, etc, that's been my problem when bands start to grow above 4 people.... and in a 4 piece band the songs seem to arrainge themselves.

[banjoboy]

Yeah, when you had a fifth or sixth member, dynamics really change. A lot more work goes into who is going to take which fill, which break...do you do half breaks between instruments, etc. Then there's stage choreograhy..especially if you're sharing a mic with someone. You can probably kiss the thought of doing a one-mic show good bye, cause your stage presence will probably look a lot like something from the Keystone Cops as your band members move in and out of the mic

[allenhopkins]

Originally Posted by Steve Ostrander

You got to ask yourself: WWBD?

Monroe used double fiddles (and, on occasion, triple fiddles) in the studio, but not, to my knowledge, in his stage band. He did have an accordion player for awhile (Wilene "Sally Ann" Forrester), and she was the "sixth (wo)man."

There's a picture of the Blue Grass Boys "just before Scruggs" from 1945: Monroe, Lester Flatt, Dave "Stringbean" Akeman, Jim Shumate, Forrester, and a comedian named "Bijou" who I assume played bass. Bill's Loar looks pristine, lying up against Forrester's big accordion. "String" has a Vega #9 Tu-Ba-Phone banjo.

Every now and then, when there's a discussion of exactly how bluegrass has to be played "or it's not bluegrass," I take a look at that picture. A music in transition then, even in Monroe's band. For a lot of bluegrass fans, time stopped in 1946, and nothing should have changed in 63 years. Don't think it works quite that way.

[JPL]

Also, I'm not that good on any of these instruments, so I would play quiet. Wouldn't disrupt anything. And I do good song intros and high harmonies.

[Nolan]

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

Monroe used double fiddles (and, on occasion, triple fiddles) in the studio, but not, to my knowledge, in his stage band. He did have an accordion player for awhile (Wilene "Sally Ann" Forrester), and she was the "sixth (wo)man."

I think it was Roland White who once asked Bill Monroe
"I really love the sound of the twin fiddles on your recordings, why don't you ever tour with twin fiddles?"

Bill Monroe's response was ......

"They don't get along"

Now if that don't sum it up I don't know what would!

[J.Albert]

Hmmmm...

The Grascals have six members, and they seem to do just fine...

- John

[barry k]

.........Thats because of the lefthanded guitar player, it balances out then.

[Steve Perry]

Originally Posted by barry k

I would only allow a 6th person in the band if he owned an entire sound system, and volunteers to donate it to the cause, he sets up and breaks down every gig by himself , while the rest of us drink a cold one and watch.

One more qualification, Barry...

They have to know how to run it too!

[barry k]

...........thanks Steve, now I know why we sounded so terrible, never thought of compentency or lack of !! lol, back to barbershop quartet I suppose.

[mrbook]

I have played shows with six or seven in a group, but I have found it hard to keep more than four people together on a regular basis. In the band I've played in for 15 years I play mandolin, banjo, and guitar, depending on the song. I even play dobro at times, but the fourth instrument got to be too much to bring along with the sound system. The others play guitar, bass, and fiddle, and can't or won't play anything else. It has worked for 15 years. In other bands I have been either the mandolin player or the banjo player, and the show keeps moving faster when you don't have to change instruments - unless you know some good jokes.

[allenhopkins]

But it's nice to be a "utility infielder" sometimes, and supply that little bit of different sound that's needed for a particular number. No Bluegrass Content -- but my Jewish-music trio, Love & Knishes, did a concert Sunday; Glenna played fiddle, Bonnie sang and played guitar, and I sang and played:

mandolin (Eastman DGM-1)
mandola (Sobell)
5-string banjo (ol' Regal pot, long "Pete Seeger" neck)
English system concertinas ('60's Wheatstone treble, 1890's Wheatstone baritone)
harmonica (Hohner Special 20)

At other times I've added mandocello, Dobro, ukulele etc. when the song called for it. Can't claim to be a virtuoso on any of these instruments, but at the journeyman level, it's nice to make a contribution.

Also, I've become quite familiar with multiple-capacity instrument stands...

[catmandu2]

Originally Posted by JPL

Now I could play guitar or mandolin in this group, if needed, but the more I think about it, my dream gig would be sort of a utility man multi-instrumentalist, playing different instruments on different songs. Dobro, banjitar, harmonica, tenor guitar, mandola . . . it would be a chance to indulge my instrument acquisition syndrome, and I sometimes like a touch of the less-traditional instrumentation in my bluegrass.

I'm with you...in one of my bands I play only guitar. But in another, the current set allows me to float between fiddles (both big and little), bouzouki, guitar and accordians. And in still another I add banjos (both 4- & 5-string), mandola and OM. Keeps me from getting bored..

But even if you're "THE" guitarist in the band, avoid playing bluegrass...I get to play steel string, nylon string, 12-string, and a couple of different electrics...which is usually more fun, even, than all the different instruments. Got to assuage that GAS ...

[ralph johansson]

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

Monroe used double fiddles (and, on occasion, triple fiddles) in the studio, but not, to my knowledge, in his stage band. He did have an accordion player for awhile (Wilene "Sally Ann" Forrester), and she was the "sixth (wo)man."

There's a picture of the Blue Grass Boys "just before Scruggs" from 1945: Monroe, Lester Flatt, Dave "Stringbean" Akeman, Jim Shumate, Forrester, and a comedian named "Bijou" who I assume played bass. Bill's Loar looks pristine, lying up against Forrester's big accordion. "String" has a Vega #9 Tu-Ba-Phone banjo.

Every now and then, when there's a discussion of exactly how bluegrass has to be played "or it's not bluegrass," I take a look at that picture. A music in transition then, even in Monroe's band. For a lot of bluegrass fans, time stopped in 1946, and nothing should have changed in 63 years. Don't think it works quite that way.

I thought time began in late 45 ... Indeed, there was music before Earl Scruggs joined the BG Boys, but the reason we don't label MOnroe's accordion band Bluegrass is there wasn't that much to distinguish it from other styles of acoustic country music.

THe Flatt-Scruggs edition of the BG Boys started a genre in a way no earlier band of Monroe's did - and the reason so many bands have stuck to the five-piece formula for 64 years is that it clarifies the roles and ranges of the various players. As soon as you add an instument you better ask what to throw out. Ironically, the most characteristic instrument, the banjo, is also the most limiting. If I were to start a stringband today there would be no room for the banjo, although I might incorporate elements of Bluegrass
along with other influences. With only four people there's more room for
intricate spontaneous interplay.

Six people - then you'd really have to work out arrangements in pedantic detail. Already in a five-piece band much too often you have just one cat soloing and two scratching, snapping, chopping in the background. It gets old after awhile.

[catmandu2]

Originally Posted by ralph johansson

Six people - then you'd really have to work out arrangements in pedantic detail. Already in a five-piece band much too often you have just one cat soloing and two scratching, snapping, chopping in the background. It gets old after awhile.

Indeed. It's one of the reasons why my fiddling colleagues and I are working to preserve the "twin fiddles" style, which is becoming increasingly rare out West.

[AlanN]

1 hand clapping: Zen
2 hands clapping: just about enough
3 hands clapping: almost too much
3+ hands clapping: ugh