Top wood for a flat top

[lone-woodwose]

I am having a mahogany pancake mandolin made for me.
One of the questions the builder presented is if I wanted a spruce or cedar top. What would you guys say? Pros and cons of each?
I won't be playing bluegrass if you need that information, mostly folk, folk-rock.

Thanks

[Rob Grant]

Go for the spruce.

[lone-woodwose]

I was leaning that way, but what are your reasons?

[Rob Grant]

For my first flattop I actually used a local timber ("King Billy Pine") which is probably somewhere between cedar (western red) and spruce in the way it works and its tone. I still have a stack of good K.B. top material, so I'll probably continue to use it for any flattops I build. I recommended spruce because your western red cedar tends to be softer then spruce and in my experience gives a "mellower" tone then what you want with bluegrass. There's nothing wrong with western red cedar, it's just that it may give you the "growl," but not the "bark" you're after.<g>

[lone-woodwose]

Originally Posted by Rob Grant

I recommended spruce because your western red cedar tends to be softer then spruce and in my experience gives a "mellower" tone then what you want with bluegrass. There's nothing wrong with western red cedar, it's just that it may give you the "growl," but not the "bark" you're after.<g>

Actually I am not looking for a bluegrass instrument.
Sorry, I think my sentence structure in the original post was confusing.
Thanks for he help though.

I am still looking at the spruce, the mahogany mellows the sound, same with the sound hole and body style...right?
So I can't imagine the spruce top would make it too much brighter. Or maybe that would be a good thing.

What about strength and holding the finish, are they the same in those respects?

[Rick Turner]

We build them with cedar tops in the course I teach (pancakes in 4 days...), and they sound quite wonderful. All the students are absolutely surprised.

[Rob Grant]

Alden,

Nothing wrong with your sentence structure, I just misread your last sentence.

Rick has a good point, you might want to try cedar. Hell, make two (one with cedar and one with spruce) and compare!<g>

[lone-woodwose]

After listening to some recordings the cedar is growing on me.

What about a mahogany top as well?

I wish I could afford to have two made. The closest thing to a mandolin I have built is a (not finished) lyre.
If you were on the east coast I would think about your class Rick.
Maybe eventually I could build myself a mandola.

[david blair]

The traditional match for a mahogany instrument is spruce. Virtually all the guitar builders of note offer this combination because it clearly focuses a wide range from bass to treble while avoiding resonances of the mid tones which may compete with vocals. Lead playing and single notes are also better defined and louder, especially with adirondack.
Cedar does makes for a sweet tone, and works very well amplified. I have a Koa back and cedar topped guitar like this. Some say koa is similar tone-wise to mahogany.

[Rick Turner]

For cedar, you'll probably want to make the top 10% to 15% thicker than you would with spruce. Talking typical to typical here...fully understand differences among woods, bracing, etc. But that is an average thickness difference for guitar tops in cedar vs. spruce.

[Rick Turner]

Oh, don't tell Lowden about mahogany and cedar...they might stop.

[lone-woodwose]

I told the builder that I like the cedar, but it hinges on the price. If the cedar is going to be a huge amount more I can do the spruce.

[Rob Grant]

May be it's my location (Australia), but I've always found good cedar (western red) to be cheaper and easier to obtain. Spruce is a whole 'nother story.

[Rick Turner]

Really nice cedar for a pancake mandolin top shouldn't cost more than $20.00 at retail. It's no big deal.

The weird thing, though, is that in vertical grain lumber form, it's more expensive than African mahogany (Khaya)...and they make fences with it here in California.

[Rob Grant]

Rick wrote:
"The weird thing, though, is that in vertical grain lumber form, it's more expensive than African mahogany (Khaya)...and they make fences with it here in California."

I scored some beautiful gear by sorting through stacks of 800X50mm planks imported for construction use. I still have several quarter sawn lengths tucked away in the wood pile. Apart from a somewhat toxic saw dust, western red cedar is beautiful to work with, a nice looking timber and it gives a beautiful tone even in the plank.

[lone-woodwose]

I guess the price is going to stay the same no matter what the top is, so I'm going cedar or all mahogany. I'll see how it sound in a month or so I guess.

[Paul Hostetter]

Originally Posted by Rick Turner

Really nice cedar for a pancake mandolin top shouldn't cost more than $20.00 at retail. It's no big deal.

The weird thing, though, is that in vertical grain lumber form, it's more expensive than African mahogany (Khaya)...and they make fences with it here in California.

Or you can sift through a batch of cedar shingles (which are largely only vertical grain) and find zingers for under $1 apiece.

[Rob Grant]

There are a few homes around the Santa Cruz area with some beautiful shingle roofs that might provide the top of your dreams. Just be sure to walk on the roof with very soft soled shoes or bare feet as you don't want to crack any shingles or wake up any irrate home owners!<G>

[Paul Hostetter]

Heh heh. The massive fires the last couple of years (or the insurance companies) have convinced all but the most foolish to get rid of wooden shingles, so they're pretty hard to find anymore. My 1850 house just lost seven layers of used roofs last year in a major overhaul: two of redwood shingles (it's what there was in the 19th C.), two of cedar shingles, three of asphalt/fiberglass composition. Happy house now.

But I'm serious about cedar shingles as a topwood source for small instruments. I've used them for mandolins and even kabosies:

[improziv]

Paul - that is just TOO cool!

How do they sound?

[John Kelly]

Interesting set of responses all round. For my twopence worth (what is that in US currency?) I use spruce for my flat tops and would agree with all that the other posters have said. Cedar is allegedly mellower and does not have the break-in time that spruce is said to require, though this is maybe less obvious on the smaller soundboard of the mandolin. On my octaves I have built I get really good sustain with the cedar and have used it in combination with Indian rosewood, ash, maple and indeed mahogany. A mahogany and spruce I built for a client was fitted with a Macintyre Feather p.u. and he is delighted with the sound - he plays Celtic and Scottish music mainly and it is in fact for this genre I tend to build. What sort of bracing pattern is your builder using? I use a variation of guitar cross-bracing and it seems to work for me.
Let us know what you decide and also how the finished instrument sounds. Good luck with it!
John K

[Rob Grant]

Paul, those are real nice. Any recordings floating around the web, I'd be curious to check out the sound?

Not many shingle roofs around these parts either. "Custom orb" (zinc/alum coated ripple iron) is the general preference here in rural Oz. I guess I'd have to try for something like a "National Steel" kabosies.<g>

[Paul Hostetter]

These kabosies are on quite a few recordings. I produced three albums for Shanachie in Madagascar: Tarika Sammy Beneath Southern Skies; Moon and the Banana Tree and Resting Place of the Mists. They're also sprinkled over the four World Out of Time compilations, and another one ws all over an album of Dama and D'Gary called The Long Road Home, which we recorded in Louisiana, of all places. They're all OP now but available as downloads in various places. I made them for Malagasy musicians Sammy, Tiana, Dama, and Rossy. Rossy got in some political deep doodoo and fled the country and while he was gone, someone shifted his to a guy in France. The Tarika Sammy and Dama ones are very much still in action.