What do you think of this?

[Julie]

I have an opportunity to buy this mandolin and am wondering what you all think of it? I am curious about the way the Gibson is written. Does this look authentic to you? I couldn't find any pictures that show the Gibson written this way anywhere, but that doesn't mean anything. I figure you all would know. Here's a picture:



There is no paperwork or anything written inside of the mandolin to indicate how old this is, either. Any ideas? Here's a couple more pictures:





There is a lot of crazing and some of the finish has come off. There is also some damage on the front from where the pick guard was. I guess it was an old type of plastic that ate into the finish on the mandolin. That's what I was told anyway. Also, there is a small area about 1/2-3/4 inches long where the back of the mandolin has "popped out" of the trim very slightly. Maybe about 1-2 millimeters? Very slight. I'm not sure if this makes sense, and I tried to take a picture, but it just couldn't be seen in the photo. Is this a big issue?

Here's a picture of the neck where it attaches to the body in the back:



Would anyone have any idea how much something like this should go for?

I apologize for all the questions, but this mandolin is for my son who has been saving for years to get an old Gibson. He's 18 and has been playing for over 10 years and this purchase is really important to him.

Thanks so much for your advice and help! We really appreciate it!

Julie

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Julie - I might be the first to reply to your OP,but i'm no expert. From what i've seen recently on another thread re. "The Gibson" or just 'Gibson' it seems that before a certain date the 'The' wasn't on the headstock,so as far as that goes there's no reason to doubt that it could be & possibly is a genuine Gibson mandolin. Regarding the 'finish' - looking at the photos,there's nothing to suggest that with a bit of careful cleaning & setting up,that the Mandolin could be made to look & sound as good as ever. About the back 'popping out',i take it that the back has lifted from inside the boundary of the edge binding.If it's as small as you say,then a visit to a good luthier or maybe another player with the skill to fix it,should sort it out,it's possibly just a localised spot that's come un-glued.There's other folk on here that have much more experience in these matters than i have,but i don't think that you have any problem IMHO. Price ? - personally i don't know but there's lots of folk on here that do,so keep looking,
Saska
PS - The other thread is "Gibson headstock Logo" in this section

[barney 59]

The yellow logo would indicate that it was manufactured after 1946. It's a Gibson if that is a concern of yours. It's a model A-50 and looks to be in played but reasonable shape and if it was in a retail situation it would most likely be listed at about $1200. If that's where your seeing it then it and if it's a good dealer it should be set up and ready to go. If it is a private sale maybe you shouldn't have to pay that much. I've seen them on e-bay for as low as $700 but to buy there you should really know what your looking at 'cause bad things can happen there. There should be a number someplace inside a serial # or an order # that would make it possible to date it accurately. They discontinued the A-50 in 1971.

[allenhopkins]

Here's another A-50 with the same "Gibson" script logo, only in white rather than yellow.

Mandolin Central dates it from 1936.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Julie,
comon consensus aparently is that it´s a genuine Gibson model A 50. I agree to that. The type of script would place it in the forties in my opinion. George Gruhn (Nashville) shows one on the website that looks like this:http://www.gruhn.com/photo/MF7586.jpg The price for this one is 750 USD (astounding for an "as is" instrument with these issues).

Charles Johnson usually had a couple. Now he has one from the 60ies which he sells for about 1.500 USD. This is quite high to my mind.

If you look at Stan Jay´s website, he has a 60ies Epiphone Adelphi (equivalent to the A-50) for about 1500 USD. Quite a high price again, methinks.

But I guess that this means that A-style mandolins with F-holes finally are getting appreciated more (possibly due to the enormous price of F-style mandos of the same vintage).

As a reminder, in the "dark ages" which means the 70ies and 80ies, many pros played these kind of instruments. Doyle Lawson for example played a Randy Wood regraduated f-hole a-style mandolin of some sort, and Buzz Busby really made his a-style f-hole mandolin shine. http://www.pxrec.com/Patuxent_Bluegrass-buzz-home.htm

What has not been adressed is what you said about the back:

Also, there is a small area about 1/2-3/4 inches long where the back of the mandolin has "popped out" of the trim very slightly.

If this is just a seam separation of some sort, a luthier may be able to quickly rectify the problem. Otherwise you´d probably pay for an instrument, that you´ll have to pay serious money for to get it repaired. This reflects the asumtion that your son has been saving for a long time to get an instrument that he does not have to invest in to get it into playing shape.

My conclusion would be that in a private sale the price should not be more than 1500 USD concerning the issues (mainly the back-popping-out-thingy) and there ought to be a period in which you´d be able to return the mandolin (I am thinking of you checking with a knowlegable repairman concerning the playability of the instrument).

Most of all - good luck!

[grassrootphilosopher]

By the way Julie, I´d much apreciate information about the seller´s asking price, too. With this the mando community on the cafe might give some better educated opinions concerning your questions.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's real, that's a legitimate logo.

Has your son played it?

[Capt. E]

Your A-50 is probably very much playable even with the back issues. Find a good luthier to evaluate it for repair. These vintage A-50's can be very nice sounding mandolins.

Let us know where you live and someone here will give you a good luthier referral.

[Julie]

Wow! Thank you all so much for your information!

In regards to some of the questions you all asked, here's that info.

The man that has this for sale is asking $850.00 and that would include new strings, doing some work on the finish - fixing that rough patch on the front and then putting some kind of varnish over it. There is also a hole where the pick-guard had been and he was going to fill this in and varnish that, too. This man actually has a business where he fixes fiddles, mandolins and guitars. I'm not sure if he's a
luthier. He is also my son's mandolin teacher.

We live in northern Arizona.

We really appreciate your help on this. It's such a huge decision and it's so nice to have all of your guidance! Thanks so much.

Julie

[laddy jota]

Julie,

I would ask him if he would take 750 and not touch the finish. The finish cannot be improved without hurting the value. Some A-50's from the war years do not have serial numbers.

[Julie]

I forgot to also add that my son has played it and it does sound nice.

One thing we noticed last night as we were looking inside for a serial number was at the bottom inside of the mandolin, two of the "bridges" (not sure what those are called on the inside around the edges - almost like teeth?) are cracked. Do you think this is an issue? It's on the bottom where it would probably hit someone knee or leg, or maybe it was set down roughly? Not sure. The outside of the mandolin has no cracks at all, just on these teeth on the inside.

Julie

[allenhopkins]

The "teeth" are called "kerfed lining," and cracks in it aren't serious in themselves. What might be more serious, along with the slight separation of the back, is that they might be evidence of damage caused by a severe blow. You really should have the A-50 examined by an experienced instrument repair and set-up person, before you plunk down your $$$. Similar to having your trusted mechanic test-drive the used car you're considering buying.

You have a 60-year-old instrument there, and it could have taken quite a few knocks along the way. Better to have it checked now than to get an unpleasant surprise later.

[woodwizard]

Julie,

I would ask him if he would take 750 and not touch the finish. The finish cannot be improved without hurting the value. Some A-50's from the war years do not have serial numbers.

I'm also thinking that any kind of refinish would lower the value of the instrument. Diffinently make a lower offer unfinished for it and see what he says. I had a 1942 A50 that sounded pretty good. It had a real mop Gibson inlay on the peghead and a little diamond mop as well. Label had fallen out so it had no serial number but was verified by George Gruhn as to its aprox. age.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Julie,

cracks in the kerfed lining and some sort of separation in the back of the mandolin surely makes the instrument a candidate to take it to an experienced luthier in order to find out wether a repair is advisable, wether the instrument is playable without any repairs and to find out just how much a repair would cost.

Since you have not indicated where in northern Arizona you are located, I pulled up a search on the builders section for Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado.

From what you read on the cafe - not meaning to slighten any of the builders in the database - Bill Bussman from Caballo New Mexico, Robb Brophy from Durango, Colorado or Don Paine from Glenwood Springs, Colorado might just be within a weekend trips way. By the way, Caballo is near Las Cruces close to Truth and Consequenses. I have been in all of the mentioned places (without mandolin content and a few years back unfortunately) and they are nice places to visit, depending on if you would like to improve your health (like Doc Holliday in Glenwood Springs), feel the old west (on a railroad trip from Durango to Silverton) or just to get away from everything (Caballo, there´s a lot of peace an quiet there).

I would definately advocate not to buy an instrument that you do not know the amount of necessary repairs of.

If the instrument costs 850,- USD and you would have to spend another 800,- USD to have it in a playing condition that lasts for the next years, where would that take you?

The general consensus concerning the finish is: Do not get a finish touchup!. This will certainly harm the value of the instrument. These old mandolins are getting harder to come by. They improve in value. With a finish touchup or a full refinish the value is generally cut in half!

If you would like to know if some sort of finish work is required, go to a savvy luthier like the ones mentioned above. They will certainly advise you well.

[grassrootphilosopher]

By the way, the asking price reflects both, the separation and the kerfed lining issues as well as the finish issue. I would like to make the guess that the back separation and kerfed lining issues cause the bigger price cut. The finish question is just a little adition.

Like I said before. With a repair job of maybe 800,- USD (who knows might be just 300,- USD), you´ll be getting closer to the value of the instrument in unharmed condition. In repaired condition the instrument might still be a nice "investment" (at least in your son´s playing capacity). So go to a savvy luthier.

I am interested in reading how it all turned out. (When I started on the mandolin there was not much information about them, no internet to check things and such. I was pretty lucky with my 30ies Strad-O-Lin. I hope your son will have the same luck with his first good instrument.)

[grassrootphilosopher]

I came back to the Gruhn photo I posted. What George Gruhn has to say about the instrument is:
"1946, cosmetically VG+, script Gibson peghead logo, attractive curly maple back and sides, original tuners and pickguard in case, needs neckset and finish touchup, refret, glue back separation and replace tuner buttons, OSC, AS IS......$750"

You can do your maths and figure out that the instrument does need repair. Otherwise the seller (like Gruhn here) would take the trouble and do it himself. If he does not do it (like Gruhn) he thinks that the repair will not heighten the value of the instrument in such a way that a substantial higher profit can be gained. This is not to say that the instrument is not worth the repair.

[journeybear]

I am curious about the way the Gibson is written. Does this look authentic to you? I couldn't find any pictures that show the Gibson written this way anywhere, but that doesn't mean anything.

This strikes me a bit odd, too. The angle of the logo looks a bit off, somewhere between the usual angle and straight across. I don't know enough about these things, and am relying more on my graphic design experience than any musical instrument "expertise" I may have acquired. To use a technical term, it looks a little funny. Is it possible for a logo decal to get smushed a bit out of place?

You did say there's no paper work, including labels. Is there anything written in pencil inside the mandolin or a number stamped on the back of the headstock? As I implied, there are others here much more knowledgable about identifying and dating mandolins, whose opinions will be more reliable than mine. Other than that, it sure looks like a Gibson. I just have a bit of hesitancy associated with this one aspect, and I actually hope it doesn't mean anything.

[jim_n_virginia]

It's a Gibson and it ain't worth $850.00 with the work it needs.

And like everyone says for goodness sake don't let the guy spackle the damage or fill any hole!

If it were me I would not go through all that trouble for an A-50, I'd just find a mandolin that was ready to play. There are many of all price ranges in the Cafe Classifieds.

If you have to have this mandolin I'd offer him $650.00 and take it as is.
He'll probably decline though.

Good luck in finding a mandolin for your son, don't give up if this doesn't work out!

[sunburst]

...this mandolin is for my son who has been saving for years to get an old Gibson.

There's a lot of that about.
I'll have to duck and cover after stating this opinion, but here goes.
Unless you can save up close to $100,000, you're better off getting something other than an old Gibson, The market for them is so strong, however, that the prices of ones such as this A50 are higher than many available superior mandolins. Is getting an old Gibson more important to him than getting a good, reasonably priced mandolin of another name?

[f5loar]

Have you looked real good in a dark closet with a flashlight in the lower F hole for any kind of number?
These usually had something there. Could be on up there where it's hard to see without a dark surrounding with flashlight in the hole.
The logo is correct for those late 30's to mid 40's.

[Julie]

First of all, thank you all SO much for your sound advice! It was invaluable in making a wise decision. We ended up going to a mandolin store that carries only mandolins and guitars and we had heard they were very reputable. We took the mandolin to them to have them look at it and to also look to see what they had in stock. He was concerned with how the top was "dipping down" (for lack of a better description) and said that it was definitely not worth more than $500.00. It had a lot of issues and the area where the back was popping out of the sides concerned him, too. He said it might be fine, but if it wasn't, the whole back could come out and nothing would be able to be done short of completely rebuilding it, and it wasn't worth that.

Honestly, I had the same thoughts about the instrument and it was nice to have it confirmed. Everyone here on the board, I felt, thought it wasn't worth that much either and it had issues.

We ended up getting my son a new Weber. It's beautiful, sounds wonderful and it will last him his whole life. Obviously, he didn't have the whole amount, but we kicked in the rest for a senior graduation present. He is thrilled and we feel good knowing we got him something that will be a treasure for the rest of his life. I think he's kinda of over the whole "gotta get a Gibson" thing, too. The store we went to was invaluable in advising him and we felt very good about the whole experience; it was worth the hour and a half drive to get there!

They invited him to come back to that town and play in the Bluegrass Festival they will have there in May, so it was just a great experience and he has met new musicians he can jam with.

Thank you all again so much! I am so thankful for all your time and advice and I can't express my gratitude enough!

God bless you all ~ Julie

[Ivan Kelsall]

Well done Julie,i think you made a very 'sound' decision.As the issues with the Gibson unfolded,it seemed that the possible problems with it could cost a whole lot more than it was worth initially.
John Hamlett got it right & so did you. Webers are terrific instruments,amongst the finest instruments for any amount of cash on the market.They're well built,fine sounding instruments with a great team at Weber for any after sale issues you might have. I'm sure that your son is well pleased,he's one lucky young guy to have a mom like you,that's for sure,
Saska

[Capt. E]

What model Weber did you buy? I own a Weber "Bighorn" and love it. You are right that it will last him his whole life, but I have to warn you that MAS may continue to strike occasionally. There may still be an old Gibson in his future, not as a replacement for the Weber, but something to provide a different kind of sound. He is a lucky young man to have such a supportive family.

[Dan Johnson]

I'm graduating next month... if you wanted to call my mom or dad...

[jim_n_virginia]

We ended up getting my son a new Weber. It's beautiful, sounds wonderful and it will last him his whole life.

I think he's kinda of over the whole "gotta get a Gibson" thing, too.

God bless you all ~ Julie

Thats great news! Nothing wrong with a Weber! It ain't no Gibson but still a good mandolin!

The good thing about getting the Weber is that it will hold it's value not lose value like an import would have which is what most people end up getting when they first start out.

If your son in the future still wants a Gibson or any other mandolin many people will take a Weber in for trade or it is fairly easy to sell it.

You've done your son a great service by getting him a quality mandolin.