Jefferson/Grisman - Ugh!

[Michael Eck]

Went to the Jefferson/Grisman Project show in Albany tonight. Ugh!

It's probably still going on as I write. I left.

My gut warned me not to go, that it would be another Paul Kantner fiasco, and indeed it was.

The Airplane played a few songs before Grisman came out. When he did -- with the Giacomel -- you couldn't hear him at all. He even moved his vocal mic -- an SM58 -- down to try and catch more sound. No go.

After two songs he picked up a black F-style with a pickup and started playing through a Fender amp. The house sound was beyond awful and even with the amp you couldn't hear him at first.

After a few more numbers he leaned down and spoke into the 58, saying "I'd like to thank Paul Kantner and my fellow Starshippers for ruining my career. Over thirty years in acoustic music and I'm plugging in."

He said it with a chuckle, but it sounded like he meant it.

Not long after Kantner commented about how many notes Grisman could get out of that little thing. Grisman made a typical joke, saying, "I get paid by the note." With no irony in his voice, vocalist David Freiberg quipped, "You can say that again."

Grisman looked uncomfortable the whole time (at least the whole time I was there). The entire affair seemed very thrown together, which has been Kantner's trademark for years.

I was getting ready to split when Kantner announced an intermission, so I took the opprotunity to leave.

Do Dawg a favor and stay away from this mess so that he won't have to spend too long living it down.

The one good thing about the show -- for me -- was that I met Cafe member Dan Johnson, a very nice guy.

[hlebowi2]

Freiberg did sing a nice version of Loser, from the first Garcia album though.....

Howard

[AlanN]

Oh my.

Knowing how much a stickler for sonic perfection Grisman is, this must have been awful. He would likely have settled for 'Can you even hear me', but to actually have to plug in simply to be heard - forget about balance and dynamics - this sounds horrid.

Have You Seen (read:heard) The Saucers?

[Capt. E]

Airplane/Starship hasn't been the same since Grace Slick left. She was the best thing about them. I understand she devotes her time to her art now.

[hlebowi2]

For those who are interested, an announcement was made at the end of the show that tonight (Friday 4/17) at midnight, a free download would be available of the show at the Egg in Albany last night. They said it is at myspace.com/jeffersontreeofliberty/
You may/may not like it, but you can't beat the price!!
Howard

[journeybear]

Oowee! That does not sound good. Sometimes all the talent in the world won't help if it's mismatched. Whose material were they doing? Perhaps Grisman should have gone electric with a Mandocaster or some other emando and gotten fierce, instead of trying to play, ah, tastefully.

[brownrusty]

For those of you who might care... When Starship finally got around to "sound checking"... all they did was jam on some old dead songs and putter around, they wouldnt actually play a song. What Mr. Ech left out was that Grisman only sang on one song the entire night, and of course during sound check David did not sing a note.

As for the mando being plugged in... It was screaming out of that fender amp, and the sound comming out of the amp was nothing but horrid! It was obvious that Mr. Grisman has truly never plugged in before, because his amp was extreamly loud and sounded nothing like a mando (more like a cheep electric acoustic with no definition). There was a point in the show where Grisman played his accoustic mando into his mic and the sound of that was sooooo much more pleasing then the monstrostiy that was comming out of the rental fender twin he was using.

The band and crew are all very very nice people! They are an absolute pleasure to be around. Dave Grisman is shuch a cool guy, almost to nice! The major problem is the band had possably the most unhelpful crew I have ever seen on a tour . Apparently they make a habbit of showing up at the venues at around 4:00PM for an 8:00PM performance... anyone in the biz can attest that thats not enough time for a crew who has never worked with the band to set up and do a decent sound check (and set up and sound check a 6 peice opening act). On top of that, they do very little to help the process along. If they truley cared about putting on a good show, they would have the proper support staff or at least show up a little bit sooner! Its shows like this that make me want to eat a bee.

A fellow spectator and fan!

Jonathan

[woodwizard]

All I can say is OMG!!!!!!!!!!

[Dan Johnson]

Good to meet you too, Mr. Eck... Weird show indeed... Not at all what I was expecting. The second set was better than the first, but...

When Grisman plugged in, at least his notes were audible. You know what it made think about was this:

What is it about the mandolin that drives me nuts? When I listen to Mike Compton... When I listen to most Grisman recordings... This takes me back to the discussion about why mandolins are so freakin' expensive: it is that sweet mandolin sound in the hands of a master... Without that sweet sound (i.e. plugged in) you might as well go get a PRS or a Les Paul... As far as I can tell anyways, no disrespect to the electric mando players....

So yeah, the show was a drag... And at $40, well. But I got a nice autograph from the Dawg... and got to say hi and everything, so... And "Wooden Ships" was cool as hell, as was "Loser"... In fact, that is going to be the best version I'll probably hear of "Loser"... And they did get the mic situation squared away eventually... So the Giacomel (I guess?) did get to say hi...

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by hlebowi2

For those who are interested, an announcement was made at the end of the show that tonight (Friday 4/17) at midnight, a free download would be available of the show at the Egg in Albany last night. They said it is at myspace.com/jeffersontreeofliberty/
You may/may not like it, but you can't beat the price!!
Howard

the link is actually http://www.myspace.com/jeffersonstreeofliberty/ - you missed an "s" - and the link isn;t uo yet. All you can download right now is the album or songs from it. Maybe they'll have it up later.

[Michael Eck]

Ah, Dan, I will admit I would have liked to have heard "Wooden Ships."

I had heard DG and the Giacomel previously at the Troy Music Hall, and it's a great sounding box which just happens to be in the right hands.

My main mandos cost about $750, which is about how good I sound.

Anyhow, on the first two songs the Giacomel sounded about like my old Harmony, so I just ahd to get out of there.

Thanks for the reports from you and Howard (Lebowi2), also a fine gentleman who likes himself some good music!

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by Michael Eck

I had heard DG and the Giacomel previously at the Troy Music Hall, and it's a great sounding box which just happens to be in the right hands.

My main mandos cost about $750, which is about how good I sound.

But then again, your mandos are probably just right for jug band music! The Giacomel just wouldn't fit for that.

In retrospect, I should have been using something funkier than my late lamented F-12 all the years I was playing in a jug band. I also picked up a banjolin and tenor steel guitar, but the F-12 was my main instrument; that's just what I had, and didn't think any further than that. My current plain A would have been more appropriate.

Remember, 'tain't whatcha got, it's the way how ya use it. Of course, if you're into more esoteric music and starting at the Giacomel level ...

[Dagger Gordon]

I've got to say in all honesty that I wouldn't really have expected a mandolin played through a mic to work very well and I'm surprised that wasn't pretty obvious to everybody from the outset. I've seen Starship in the last two years and they definitely blast it out. It was clear to me that Grisman would require to amplify in some way.

Why was Grisman doing this? Judging from the remarks about 'getting paid by the note', perhaps it was money. Maybe they're old friends, or he wanted to do something different, I don't know.
However, if he did decide to do it, he should have been better prepared, in my view. On the live album Grisman did with Grappelli, for example, Tiny Moore plays 'electric mandolin' on one track, which sounds quite nice to me. It doesn't have to sound awful.

If Sam Bush were to have done the gig instead, I suspect he might have got a better sound. And indeed, looking at this from the Starship's point of view, they may well feel that if they're paying him a lot of money then he should be able to get a better onstage sound. It's really about using the right tool for the job.

Don't get me wrong - I've got the very greatest respect for Grisman, I really do. But I actually also quite like Jefferson Starship, and I'm not sure that Grisman's done the mandolin any favours with the way this seems to have worked out, unfortunately.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Originally Posted by Dan Johnson

When I listen to Mike Compton... When I listen to most Grisman recordings... This takes me back to the discussion about why mandolins are so freakin' expensive: it is that sweet mandolin sound in the hands of a master... Without that sweet sound (i.e. plugged in) you might as well go get a PRS or a Les Paul... As far as I can tell anyways, no disrespect to the electric mando players....

None taken.
The reason I play electric mandolin is because I'm a better mandolin player than a guitar player. A Les Paul in my hands would be less articulate than my Mandocaster or my Mandobird.

I've tried mic-ing my Vessel in a band situation and nearly beaten the thing to death to no audible avail. So rather than trust to sound 'engineers' familiar with rock and not familiar with good acoustic sound (let alone an acoustic mandolin), I decided to step over to the electric side. This way I control my sound, not someone else.

And yes, you'd think that 1) knowing Sam Bush pretty well and 2) having worked with a rock band before (Grateful Dead), Grisman would have been prepared. But maybe Kantner & Co constantly reassured Grisman of the ease of things and Grisman trusted them.

Truth is Grisman ran headlong into the same trouble that many of us deal with.

Daniel

[Mike Bromley]

I get asked to 'bring your mando' to jams involving electric instruments. Uh, no. Only if I bring my amplifying rig, and that is only to a select few situations. The mando, although versatile, is not by any means universal.

I remember, vaguely, attending Telluride CO festival in 1990, and watching Mark O'Connor, with no small amount of dismay on his face, sit in on Bruce Hornsby's "Mandolin Rain". Here was one of the world's finest players, handcuffed by a song that IMHO is mandolin-unfriendly. Uh, that's just the way it....is.

Sam was also there, and he had the amplified thing sewn up.

I can imagine Dawg was feeling out of place (see recent thread about mandolin nightmares)!

[allenhopkins]

Hey, Grisman played in Earth Opera with Peter Rowan et. al., right? Not like he's never been amplified before. He's done a zillion gigs in various formats. If the group's not prepared to provide him with proper sound reinforcement, he's not a passive victim of their PPPP (p-poor prior planning). Not every musical collaboration is well-thought-out and successful, but G's a big enough Dawg to throw his weight around and get the kind of set-up he needs. Sorry if it didn't work well, but he has to take the responsibility for however his contribution was handled, or mishandled.

[Hans]

Probably why Jorma and Jack left many years ago...Grisman should have played with them.

[hlebowi2]

Originally Posted by journeybear

the link is actually http://www.myspace.com/jeffersonstreeofliberty/ - you missed an "s" - and the link isn;t uo yet. All you can download right now is the album or songs from it. Maybe they'll have it up later.

Thanks for the correction on the link!
Unfortunately the show is still not available as of 8 am Sunday morning.
Hopefully it will be there for those who want to hear it for themselves.
And, Hi Michael!!

Howard

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by hlebowi2

Unfortunately the show is still not available as of 8 am Sunday morning. Hopefully it will be there for those who want to hear it for themselves.

Maybe they listened to the recording and nixed the broadcast ...

Originally Posted by Hans

Probably why Jorma and Jack left many years ago...Grisman should have played with them.

That actually sounds like a more interesting project. But Barry Mitterhoff might have a different opinion ...

[taboot]

Originally Posted by Hans

Probably why Jorma and Jack left many years ago...Grisman should have played with them.

Personally, I'm really, really glad it's Barry Mitterhoff on mandolin (and tenor, and octave mandolin, and whatever else he wants) with Hot Tuna, and not Grisman. I like him, appreciate what he's done for the instrument, but Barry's a *great* fit for that band.

Christian

[Lee]

Michaeal Falzarano toyed with a mandolin on a few occasions with Hot Tuna but he also never got the tone just right.
Barry's tone has much improved over the years with Hot Tuna, and he's sounding excellent plugged in. According to Hot Tuna's site Barry plays either a Stevens 5-string, an Earnest 4-string, or an Epiphone Mandobird, through a Carr Rambler 1x12 combo. Nothing mysterious.

[journeybear]

All right, the link for the download is up and working. There are a few steps you have to go through - click on each song (no one-click option for the whole show), register at nimbit.com, click on that link, download each song one by one (23 altogether), being careful to do so in order - took me 15 -20 minutes, YMMV. If you've set it up right you'll see this; as I said, keep focussed and get the song order straight. Be patient and persistent.

This is definitely a listen-to-it-tomorrow situation for me. Regardless of the mixed reviews, I'm looking forward to hearing this, especially the second set - Friend Of The Devil, Wooden Ships, The Ballad Of You & Me & Pooneil, Lather, a few long jams.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Originally Posted by journeybear

All right, the link for the download is up and working. There are a few steps you have to go through - click on each song (no one-click option for the whole show), register at nimbit.com, click on that link, download each song one by one (23 altogether), being careful to do so in order - took me 15 -20 minutes, YMMV. If you've set it up right you'll see this; as I said, keep focussed and get the song order straight. Be patient and persistent.

This is definitely a listen-to-it-tomorrow situation for me. Regardless of the mixed reviews, I'm looking forward to hearing this, especially the second set - Friend Of The Devil, Wooden Ships, The Ballad Of You & Me & Pooneil, Lather, a few long jams.

Thanks for providing the quick version of a download.

And
What a drag. I hope Grisman made the Jefferson folks pay through their noses. I listened to "The 8th Of January". Man that band sounds like a highschool band, out of sync, bad rythm guitar, a totally uninspired drummer hammering it out, the lead guitar guy unable to provide an interesting idea to a musical classic... I bet that the switch from major to minor is a Grisman thing and a tip of the hat to his ancestry (like in the Statman collaboration). That though was the only good about it.

I was interested in the Grisman-Jefferson project thinking some good intent may come of it, leading folks "on the right path". Well, now I´m unconvinced.

[Dan Johnson]

I got to see Mitterhoff with Jorma about six months ago... Same venue... What a different show!

[Hans]

Actually, I liked Tuna best on their first album...Jorma, Jack and Will Scarlett.
Straight acoustic blues and no funny stuff...but then I'd rather listen to Big Bill (not Monroe).