Tonerite questions

[mandozilla]

Whoa! A clear mandolin...now that would be novel and so would a mandolin shaped aquarium...or a clear mandolin with a built in de-damper...or a combination de-damper aquarium pump...what was the subject of this thread? Oh yeah! The Tonerite De-damper...I almost forgot.

BTW, I've had my Tonerite going on my beater...all I can say is it continues to impress me.

[papawhisky]

Originally Posted by jswag

Can any of you who have a mandolin tonerite tell me if it will also fit on a Mandola? Or an Octave Mandolin? If it will fit these instruments also, it would sure be nice, and (for me) make the cost more acceptable for my current budget/finances. Thanks for any information.
Jeff

JSwag-
I ordered mine last Friday and hope to have it soon. I want it for my mandolins, but I also have an OM. I'll try it out and let you know.

[mandozilla]

Hey Jeff

I don't know if it would work on a mandola or an octave, it depends on the string spacing.

I've tried my Tonerite on my D35. It fits but a little off center due to the string spacing. However, I haven't figured out how to keep it in place yet as the fit isn't snug enough to hold it. I'd have to wrap something around the guitar to get her done.

The Tonerite folks are developing a unit for guitars I believe and I'll probably get one of those as well...I'm sold on these darn things. (NFI)

[pops1]

Well after just one night the fish air pump has made a difference in my mandolin. I believe that any way to vibrate the top will have the same effect. As Rick said in the old days you would put it near a stereo speaker (loud) and vibrate it that way. I remember those days and have thought of that way, but my stereo is not that loud these days. If i play my old Gibson, it only vibrates the top nicely when i play chords and not when i play single notes, since that's what i do mostly i'm sure that the air pump would help that even tho it sounds great and has been broken in for at least 80 years. Bottom line, if you can afford it buy one, if not there is always the air pump for $10 or play like carazy 20 hours a day.

[rgray]

How about putting the mandolin in front of a powered subwoofer? My home theater receiver has a feature to calibrate the volume level from each of the surround speakers. I can push a continuous signal to the powered subwoofer and use the subwoofer's own volume control to increase the intensity. All you have to hear is the low level subwoofer vibration - not ear-splitting music.

Another option might be home theater tactile transducers. These things are mounted to the frame of your furniture and wired to the amp to shake your butt when the bombs go off during the movie.

[mandozilla]

Another option might be home theater tactile transducers. These things are mounted to the frame of your furniture and wired to the amp to shake your butt when the bombs go off during the movie.

Whoa rgray, I think the theater tactile transducer thingy might deserve some investigation.

Can they be mounted somehow on a mandolin without damaging it? What do they look like?

How about putting the mandolin in front of a powered subwoofer

Yeah rgray folks do that with good results that can't be proven either...I think the Tonerite accomplishes the same thing much faster.

[rgray]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

Whoa rgray, I think the theater tactile transducer thingy might deserve some investigation.
Can they be mounted somehow on a mandolin without damaging it? What do they look like?

More tongue in cheek. Cheaper than the Tonerite at about $99 (www.buttkicker.com) but are meant to be permanently mounted onto furniture using screws. I'm sure that someone can rig up something if they already owned one.

Originally Posted by mandozilla

Yeah rgray folks do that with good results that can't be proven either...I think the Tonerite accomplishes the same thing much faster.

It just seemed that a subwoofer would be better than a standard speaker by just putting out the low freq vibrations without all of the other sound. Might have to try it with my two subs when I get my mando. Just a way to combine the mando experience with the home theater experience.

[mandozilla]

That looks weird rgray, I mean interesting. Maybe the screws could be swapped out for suction cups...I duuno.


BTW, I know the Tonerite seems pricey but occassionaly they have sales or specials...When I got mine, around six weeks ago, they were on sale for $199.00...still pricey but I went for it. I'm glad I did. Would I have paid full price? Absolutely!

[Amandalyn]

That Buttkicker is appropriately named.........

I just took my mandolin down to the crossroads at midnight, last night, and now it's louder; sounds amazingly better; has more sustain; phenomenal chop; now growls while it barks; changes it's own strings; the balance, from bass to treble is purrfect; intonation is a small fraction of a cent at every fret; it's always in tune, and this morning it was playing "Rawhide" in the case, before I got up. It didn't cost me 300-bucks. I just traded my soul for it. "I wasn't using it."

Three-hundred dollars for a vibrator, and 134 posts about it. Man, I really don't mean to offend anybody, but isn't there just a little bit of weird going on here?

[mandozilla]

Okay so we know you don't buy into de-damping already...but I wonder why it is you keep popping up in these de-damper/Tonerite threads? I don't like emandos but I don't go there and stir up ****.

I think the compulsion to be contrary and start arguments is a sort of mental illness. Can any shrinks out there confirm this?

Bottom line Kestrel, if you think de-damping and the Tonerite is a complete waste of time, why do you waste your time ogreing around these types of threads...Kestrel! Fly away little gremlin!



(Oops, sorry Lee.)

[Michael Lewis]

The reason there are so many posts on this subject is that there is a lot of interest. Even the skeptics are interested or they wouldn't post in this thread.

The point I don't understand is the constant request for PROOF, MEASURED NUMBERS. Nobody asks for that from a ToneGard because you can hear it, and the tonal improvement is similar with the Tonerite I think. If anyone wants measured proof they can make the measurements them selves, then they will not doubt the results, not so much from the figures but because they can hear the difference.

[Mike Snyder]

It's fairly obvious to me, now, that Tonerite has data that proves their claims. It is not offered up, probably for proprietary reasons. The opinions of M.Lewis, R.Turner, K.Newell and f5loar were enough for me. I plan to purchase one, although the money would be better spent on instruction, no doubt.

[Amandalyn]

Thank you M Snyder & MLewis- well put. Here's what I said in another thread:

Re: TONERITE DE-DAMPER - Results, anyone?
With my personal involvement in the development the Mandolin model Tonerite, I suspect you will find my comments biased. First let me say that I am primarily a musician, and yes I have a Music Business. But, I am also a skeptic and would not recommend or endorse something I didn't completely believe in. Some have suggested a test like "Folded Path" recommened, and at one time I was going to do that myself, but not having the proper sound equipment to make a controlled test, opted out. The proof is in the usage and positive response I have gotten from clients,and also the scientific tests that the company has made. For me the most useful quality of the Tonerite, is when I pick up my mandolin to play it is open and responsive, giving me more confidence and enjoyable playability. Most will attest an instrument that sounds better makes you play better.

“Okay so we know you don't buy into de-damping already...but I wonder why it is you keep popping up in these de-damper/Tonerite threads? I don't like emandos but I don't go there and stir up ****. ”

Actually, what it is that I don’t buy into is not de-damping, but paying $300.00 to buy a vibrator for my mandolin. I’m not saying that others shouldn’t, but I figure I have just as much right to state my opinion, as you have to spout off about everything, anything, and nothing. If you don’t like the way I say it, I see that as being your problem. And, yeah, alright – IMO, “The Emperor has no clothes.”

”I think the compulsion to be contrary and start arguments is a sort of mental illness. Can any shrinks out there confirm this? ”

Now, here, my man, I think you’ve stepped way over the line. But, you seem to do that quite regularly, so I’ll just attempt to pass it off as - you don’t really know any better. I believe that before making such ignorant comments on a public forum, I would question what appears to be your intense need to be noticed, by being apparently unable to make even the simplest statement without attempting to use as many emoticons as possible ; bright red, bold, fonts; and every other outlandish attention getter at your disposal. Uhhhhh. Any “shrinks” out there care to confirm this?

”Bottom line Kestrel, if you think de-damping and the Tonerite is a complete waste of time, why do you waste your time ogreing around these types of threads...Kestrel! Fly away little gremlin! ”

I happen to come here to the “Builders and Repair” section to learn about “Building” and Repairing” of instruments, from folks who actually know what they are talking about. I can’t, for the life of me, understand how discussing a commercial device to tickle your mandolin into thinking it’s a Loar, has ANYTHING to do with building and repairing mandolins. I have always been under the impression that that is what the “Equipment” and General Mandolin Discussion” sections are for. I’ve read everything in “Building and Repair” for going on three-years now, so I naturally drop in to see what’s so fascinating about a Tone-Rite. When I find that the class clown, who seems to think he’s the Marx Brothers, Jim Varney, and Larry The Cable Guy, all rolled into one, I find it to be so absolutely annoying that it brings out the worst in me.

"Bottom line", Godzilla: I will now be bowing out of this conversation. I have far better things to do, but thanks for attempting to – enlighten?

Gene

[Amandalyn]

>I happen to come here to the “Builders and Repair” section to learn about “Building” and Repairing” of instruments, from folks who actually know what they are talking about. I can’t, for the life of me, understand how discussing a commercial device to tickle your mandolin ..........has ANYTHING to do with building and repairing mandolins.>

The reason it's in this forum is because it is of interest to luthiers. They know about the opening up process. It's the luthiers I first sought after to try out the Tonerite, and they have responded in kind. FYI-The topic is also discussed in the" equipment" forum.

I'd also like to add- I never thought I'd pay $35.00 for a Blue Chip Pick - but I did and it's well worth it- it's all I use now.

[Mike Snyder]

kestrel, sorry, but I take offense of yer reference to those HACKS in context concerning the Marxs Brothers. Please!

[Paul Hostetter]

At the risk of being a wet blanket in this lovefest, I just finished doing the Toneright Treatment to a third instrument (3-5 days each) and I don't really think it did much at all. In fairness, the instruments, two guitars and a mandolin, were good ones to begin with. They went in sounding A-OK, came out about the same. A change of strings would result in a more dramatic improvement.

[Frank Russell]

Thanks Kestrel, you read my mind. Not so much about the Tonerite, I'll wait until I see one, but the other stuff you were talking about was just what I was thinking. Frank

[foldedpath]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

The point I don't understand is the constant request for PROOF, MEASURED NUMBERS. Nobody asks for that from a ToneGard because you can hear it, and the tonal improvement is similar with the Tonerite I think.

It's the elapsed time required by the process that makes it different. The principal behind the ToneGard can be demonstrated before purchase, with a simple test. Press the mandolin against your belly, then hold it away from you while playing it. If you have a mandolin where the back resonance adds noticeably to the tone, and you don't normally hold the mandolin away from your body when playing, then a ToneGard is likely to be a worthwhile purchase. If you don't hear a difference, a ToneGard probably wouldn't do anything. It doesn't rely on comparisons over time.

Anecdotal claims for de-damping processes are all based on what people remember an instrument sounding like days ago, weeks ago, months ago. Human memory is fallible, and it's also subject to confirmation bias and cultural reinforcement -- the idea that instruments always break in over time, and the corollary idea that instruments need to "wake up" when they haven't been played for a while (when it might actually be the player that's waking up). Blind comparison of recordings isn't subject to memory errors or emotional bias.

If anyone wants measured proof they can make the measurements them selves, then they will not doubt the results, not so much from the figures but because they can hear the difference.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden is on those making the claim, not the skeptics. Sorry to insert a stock answer, but that's really the case here.

Nobody (including me) complains when someone makes an anecdotal claim like "my mandolin sounds better after X," when X is a different set of strings, or a new type of pick, or a different playing technique. That's a personal opinion, and it's related to all sorts of subjective factors, including the style of music you like to play. We all have our subjective opinions, and they're all valid (for the individual).

But when someone claims that X brand of string will sound wonderful for everyone, or X type of pick will work for everyone... and that (unlike the belly-press-test for the ToneGard) the only way to find out is to buy one... now you're getting into a realm of an extraordinary claim that is going to raise some eyebrows, and ideally requires some demonstration. This Tonerite vibrator isn't a $3 pick. It costs a bit more, and it requires an investment of time and effort to use.

"Argument from authority" doesn't work either, because while some very well-respected luthiers and players advocate the process, there's a ton of others who don't, and seem to get by with playing an instrument normally, without mechanical enhancements.

Over in the Gearslutz forum, people often post blind recordings of different microphones or preamps so people can guess what they're hearing. It's a reality check on marketing claims. The methodology isn't always perfect, but it can help shoot down bogus claims of vast superiority for certain products. And it can at least act as an initial filter for making purchasing decisions. It's curious why, with so much to gain from a demonstration, the providers of de-damping gadgets and services don't want to provide this kind of demonstration.

Finally, there's something that defenders of the process don't often address, and that's the question of "what if it does make a change in my mandolin, but it's a different change than I'd get by just playing it?" And most importantly, how do I know that the change wouldn't sound worse than just playing it in normally? The continued response by advocates -- "just try it!" doesn't address this at all. It's another area where some clear demonstrations of improvement, for (ideally) several different tested mandolins, would reduce the skepticism.

[Paul Hostetter]

Originally Posted by the mystery person posing as foldedpath

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden is on those making the claim, not the skeptics. Sorry to insert a stock answer, but that's really the case here.

It would indeed be extraordinary if there was a unassailable way to document the sound of an instrument, before or after, in any meaningful way, but I really don't think there is. I feel that all we have is our ears and our brains. I trust mine pretty well, but in the spirit of YMMV, it has to end there. Technology is never going to take up the slack between our subjective judgment and our fondest wishes for Scientific Veracity very well.

Excellent post, thank you.

[mandozilla]

"Bottom line", Godzilla:

Uh, that would be mandozilla thank you very much.

[Rick Lindstrom]

Foldedpath-

You make a strong argument that the effects of a Tonerite, or any other device for improving the "sound" of an instrument, are completely subjective. I entirely agree.

Logically, since it's a subjective issue, skeptical arguments of those who haven't experienced it subjectively are baseless.

I have a Tonerite, and subjectively I feel that it performs more or less as advertised. I'm fortunate to be in a place in my life where the purchase price represents pocket change for me, so I don't feel compelled to claim that it works just because I spent my hard earned lucre on it.

Buy one, try it and form a subjective opinion. Then argue the merits or lack thereof.

Rick

[Keith Newell]

Personally I hope nobody buys them and everyone forgets this topic....erase this from your minds please.

Now with that done can I interest you in a new mandolin? What? Yes, it is new. ....Why thank you yes, all my mandolins sound like this....What you say?....it sounds broken in?.....well, I can verify that it is only 3 weeks old...Why yes I do take Paypal, Postal Money orders and cash.....

Keith

[tomttomttomt]

I have 2 mandolins that sound very similar in volume and tone. I bought a $4 vibrating fish tank air pump and put it on mandolin A. Left it on there for about a week and compared the sound to mandolin B. Definately an audible difference. Both mandolins were strung with new strings at the same time. After some close comparing I believe that the difference in sound may be contributed to the vibrations of the pump ageing or playing in the new strings. Whether it changed the wood or not, who knows . I am now playing mandolin B and will see how it compares to mandolin A in a week or so.