will fat fingers prevent mastery?

[gnossie]

Howdy folks.

First time post here.

I am kind of a chunky guy, at least I've got fat fingers.

This is a problem when playing the mandolin because several times I cannot play a certain chord clearly. A good example of this is Em:

E: -0-
A: -2-
D: -2-
G: -0-

The problem is sounding the open E string. The flesh on the underside of my fingertip deadens that string, and try as I might I cannot position my fingers in such a way as to play all four strings clearly, at least not in the rush of playing a song at speed.

Not sure what to do about this. Please give me a straight answer: is it the case that some people will be prevented from becoming serviceable mandolin players because of pudgy fingers? Or is it just more practice? Because I've had this problem for years, and no amount of practice seems to help with this.

Happily I note that some mando players, such as Rich DelGrosso, are big guys like me and still seem able to play okay. But what's their secret? I have no idea how to go about losing weight in my fingers!

In fact, the more I play mando, the thicker the muscles and calluses on my fingertips get, so the problem seems to be actually worsening with practice!

There's something else: there are some mandolins, such as the Breedloves, that boast of a wider neck. In other words, the spaces between the courses are more than on a normal mandolin. Would something like this help me, or on those instruments is the space BETWEEN the identically-tuned strings also greater.

Please give me the truth. Let me know now if I should just take up the French horn instead.

[Albert Whiting]

The problem with the fleshy part of your hand hitting the e string sounds like you are gripping the neck like a bat instead of the thumb resting on the back of the neck. Bill monroe had big hands, Adam Steffey and Doyle Lawson have big hands so the big hand thing is just an excuse. It is hard to know exactly what youre doing wrong without a visual aid so if you can send me a picture email it to iamawesome2day@aol.com and I will look at it and see if I can give you some idea.

[Stephen Lind]

ask Django

[Bob Borzelleri]

If fat fingers is a valid justification for not becoming a mando master, then I've lost yet another reason to not be a master player.

[Mike Snyder]

I'm gonna add that to the list of my excuses. Yep.

[fishdawg40]

Originally Posted by Stephen Lind

ask Django

Interesting point! The man basically only had two fingers. You're "fat" fingers will be fine. You will find a way to master the mandolin. And if you don't, your fingers won't be the blame.

Just trying to say that you'll be OK in the end.

[Paul Hostetter]

I think the reference to Django was, to say the least, unhelpful and inappropriate. If you watch his playing carefully, he used all his fingers for chording, and his fingers were not at all fat or large in any sense. If you want to see fat, check Segovia's hands, or Rev. Gary Davis, who could make a simple E major chord with one finger. If all you need is a bigger fingerboard, get a mandolin with a bigger fingerboard.

[Mike Bromley]

Don't let an E minor chord stop you from loving every single minute.

[mrmando]

Are you trying to play that Em chord with one finger? Unless you're double-jointed, it's very, very hard to mash the tip of your index finger across the D and A courses and then expect the second joint of that finger to clear the E string. Fingers just aren't built that way, no matter how fat or skinny they are. Try fretting the D with your index finger and the A with your second finger ... that will more or less force you to arch both fingers in a way that allows the E string to ring clear.

I think we can add Mike Marshall to the list of mandolinists with big digits. "Fat" fingers are not an excuse for not playing the mandolin well. Learn what every violinist learns: how to arch your fingers to drive the tips down into the fretboard, instead of laying the whole digit flat across the fretboard. That will make a world of difference.

And to answer your question: No, a wider neck does not necessarily mean that the string pairs will be further spaced out. And if your string spacing doesn't suit you, you can always have a repair technician fill and reslot your nut and bridge.

[Joel Spaulding]

quote: This is a problem when playing the mandolin because several times I cannot play a certain chord clearly. A good example of this is Em:

E: -0-
A: -2-
D: -2-
G: -0-

The problem is sounding the open E string. The flesh on the underside of my fingertip deadens that string, and try as I might I cannot position my fingers in such a way as to play all four strings clearly, at least not in the rush of playing a song at speed.


Play X - 2 -2- 3

or O -2-2 -3

Or, take up the French horn.

[man dough nollij]

I tried the french horn, but my lips were too fat...

(...and my brain too small...)

[Mike Snyder]

Frank Ray of Cedar Hill makes me look small, and I'm a BIG ol' boy. That does't keep him from tearin' it up on his Loar.

[mandolirius]

A couple of things you may want to consider - if you have strong callouses you can arch your fingers more, so they are coming down more perpendicularly on the fingerboard. You may want to look at your left hand position to see if adjusting will allow you to get a greater arch. Try the "racquet grip" with the neck resting right in the center of your palm.

Also, you have a lot of choices when it comes to chord voicings. If one doesn't work, choose another. How about (for Em):
4-2-5-3 or 4-2-5-0. That's an Em with no third, but still a good chord. 4-5-7 is one that does have the third.

All the best!

[Joel Spaulding]

Point of clarification:

Would not the 4-2-5-3 and 4-2-5-0 be permutations of an Em7 chord?
A fine chord but just asking

[Chuck Naill]

When this question comes up I think of the violinist, Itzhak Perlman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwUGp...eature=related

chuck

[billkilpatrick]

as with many of our appendages, size doesn't matter ... it's what you do with them.

[Jon Hall]

I recommend using other Em chords than the one you're attempting. In addition to the 4-5-7-X that Mandolirious posted try 4-2-2-x or x-2-2-3. Three finger chords sound fine when playing with a guitarist.

[AlanN]

Finger size is just that. For E minor, do 4-2-2, forget the E string.

I remember a parking lot picker at Wind Gap one year, had sausage fingers. This guy could burn it up.

[Bertram Henze]

Originally Posted by gnossie

...A good example of this is Em:

E: -0-
A: -2-
D: -2-
G: -0-

I agree, open chords are lovely. But then I play an OM.

Whenever I get back to a normal size mandolin with a narrow fretboard, I have this same problem even with my not-so-fat fingers, even when I set them vertically tip-on - had to learn this when playing the violin (never got as far as Perlman of course).
That's one of the reasons mandolinists have these closed position chords (aka ffcp - another reason is easier transposition), which I do recommend (without using them myself, though, because I play an OM).

Did I mention that playing an OM is also a nice option?

Bertram

[MikeEdgerton]

It hasn't hurt Kevin.

[John Flynn]

On that 0220 Em, I do that with the pad of my index fingertip and can sound all the strings clearly. The way I do it is my hand is under the nut and the tip of my index finger is pointing back up the neck, toward the bridge. The finger tip is almost parallel to the strings, so it is completely out of the way of the G and E courses.

I think big hands work fine on mandolin and can actually have advantages, because a lot of mando chords require a wide span of the fingers and also fat fingertips can press down two courses at once. You just have to experiment and find a way to make your hands work on the instrument.

[journeybear]

Hi gnossie, and welcome to the Café. You see how we are - surely you read a bunch of posts before you summoned the courage to ask your question - and you did so anyway. Brave soul!

As a few have suggested, try different fingerings for the Em chord. Another one that might work is

-----
-2---
----3
x

But I think the real issue is to find a way to work with what you've got. If you really can't get all the strings to sound clearly, you may have to compromise. In this case, if your priority is to get both E strings to ring, try fretting the D string with one finger, smush it over onto the A string to get just one to sound the B note, and leave the E string untouched. (As John Flynn put it, more elegantly, "fat fingertips can press down two courses at once.") You could try a similar approach with two fingers on the D and A strings, but the first method may be easier. This method may work even better with the 4-2-2 approach AlanN suggested, as you can smush the finger fretting the D and A strings over the G string - being in the "shadow" of the finger fretting the G string at the 4th fret, it won't matter. You could also try using your ring and pinky fingers if they're smaller. I know none of this is true proper technique, but I'm results-oriented, and whatever works, works.

I'm aware this is just an example of the problem you're having, and it shows up in other places as well. My fingers are, ah, sizable, but I've learned to adapt. Sometimes one finger literally pushes another one out of the way, and in the heat of the moment, occasionally I've actually gouged myself with a nail. (Ouch!) When people ask me how do I get my fingers in between those tiny frets, my stock answer is: it doesn't matter where they are below the fret, as long as they don't go over them. That's my biggest secret, though it's not really a secret because it is so furshluginnin' obvious! But hey folks - keep askin' them dumb questions! At least it shows you're interested.

Whatever you do, don't give up, not just yet. There are more than one way to accomplish what you're trying to. But if you feel you must pack it in, please don't pick up the French horn instead - or if you do, don't bring it to a bluegrass festival. There are limits ...

Still preferable to banjo, however!

Originally Posted by Joel Spaulding

Point of clarification: Would not the 4-2-5-3 and 4-2-5-0 be permutations of an Em7 chord?
A fine chord but just asking

Yep. The first one is about my favorite chord, I call it Mongo. That's one that I use to test the sound of an instrument. I'm not liking the second one, too dissonant, but it did point me to the X-5-2-0 inversion I suggested.

[chasray]

Are we all wishing we had long, skinny double-joined fingers? Mine are medium-small and I thought I had a disadvantage. I thought you big-fingered guys were lucky 'cause you could fret two courses of strings with one finger and could easily do an Ab chop chord.
I'm not giving up now

[Fred Keller]

Good suggestions about different voicings, grip (make sure you're not touching the neck with your palm), and examples of...portly players (Peter Ostroushko is another--fingers like plump vienna sausages but he manages just fine).

A further idea:

When I've run across people who have trouble holding down a same-fret double stop like the 0-2-2-0 Eminor chord, often they're trying to do too much. My goal is to use my index finger to cover the two inside strings and not worry about the two outside strings. Sure, if you play the chord one string at a time you'll hear the two outsides strings as muffled but when do you ever play a chord slowly, one string at a time? The two outside strings will be just fine--play the two inside strings and don't think about it.

[johnwalser]

I have fat fingers and for years wanted to use that as an excuse for my lack of playing ability. I took lessons from Michael Lampert and he has very small hands with fingers three quarters of an inch shorter than mine. Dolly Parton played with finger nails so long that she had to improvise her own chords in order to play. I found that with enough practice, I overcame my “disability” and while Chris, Mike and Evan have nothing to fear, I have become a decent player.

Django was not from our planet. I have five of his CDs and can only imagine he had a third hand. What a musical genius! Django is just proof positive that one can adapt.

John