Jerusalem Ridge-- History?

[pickinpete]

Originally Posted by ralph johansson

you don't understand? someone asked a question and i gave the answer because i know it - and i have never seen it given on the cafe. i've searched.
there are those who believe that monroe's own words are the final truth and there are those who knew someone who knew baker and knew he brought it fully composed to the group, etc.


i thought the purpose of a forum was to share knowledge and information but it seems i was mistaken. i hoped to share some insight into monroe's working methods.

as for baker not changing his story, this happens to be his story, told to mark o'connor, and published in 1993, in the insert to the cd "heroes". so if you're accusing anyone of lying i do not want credit.

Eeeeeezy Ralph, Nobody called you nothin. What I dont understand why Baker keeps being called a liar, when time after time he said Bill wrote the tune. As for the quote earlier, I dont hear monroe saying baker wrote it, but he is without argument the "star" of that tune. Has anyone heard monroe say the phrase "Kenny wrote the tune"? I have heard Baker say the phrase "Bill wrote the tune". It seems people dont like that idea and need to change it. Thats what I dont understand. And I didnt mean to Get your nose out of joint with my thought on it. My apology. We all sposed to luv each other, Your still my friend ralph, OK?

[mandozilla]

"Bill wrote the tune". It seems people dont like that idea and need to change it.

That's exactly what I want to understand. It appears some folks have a need to tear down others, or others' work, whom they have a dislike, or even hatred for. Isn't it enough for them to say,"Bill Monroe? I think he sucks" or whatever and move along.

What's the point of being so vehement and insistent upon denegrating or belittling the work of one of Americas' musical geniuses?...especially when he's not around to defend himself?

[Patrick Gunning]

A dislike? A hatred??? I think Bill Monroe sucks? I'm denigrating and belittling him?

That's a whole lot of assertions made about me with a whole lot less evidence than what I've presented for my argument about the tune. Believe me, if I thought those things about Bill, I wouldn't be all wishy-washy about it. I'm pretty clear about my likes and dislikes on this board.

I'm going to make this as plain as I can. Jerusalem Ridge is one of the best fiddle tunes of all time. Bill Monroe was a musical visionary, a peerless bandleader, a writer of many brilliant songs and tunes ,and for his day was the best mandolinist around. His music, both directly and indirectly through countless acts carrying on his tradition, is something I love dearly (though I seldom play pure, straight-ahead bluegrass these days).

I think Bill Monroe wrote a chunk of Jerusalem Ridge, and inspired/approved the rest (see Ralph's post). I base this on 1) Monroe saying it, 2) that "Heroes" booklet, and 3) my ear not hearing "Monroe phrasing" in a good portion of the tune. Kenny Baker, an eminently humble man (a quality I certainly don't measure up to him in), sought no credit (nor does he seek it now) for his contribution, whatever that may be. That's my opinion and it may be dead wrong. Whether it's true or not in no way lessens or increases my opinion of Bill. As anyone who's ever done anything creative knows, it's that spark of inspiration that's 90% of the battle.

Ultimately, none of what I'm saying really matters because the recordings of them playing the tune will inspire for many years to come, regardless of my random comments.

So, to round this out, let's all chill and go listen to Casey Driessen take this tune to heights (on his record 3D) surely never imagined by Bill and Kenny all those years ago and be confident that someone else will do something even greater with it someday. Sorry if I've given offense where none was intended.

[man dough nollij]

Thanks y'all for your posts here. I'm learning a lot.

It's interesting-- I had no idea there was controversy over the authorship of the song, and I can't really get too interested in that. It is what it is.

I'm sure I'm not alone in the Cafe population in that I'm relatively late in getting on the Monroe bus. I've heard some of his stuff (mostly performed by other people). I have read so many rave reviews of his style, his playing, and his musical vision that I just had to check it out for myself. Unfortunately, that's limited to YouTube clips at the moment, but at least that's given me a broad sample of his stuff.

I've heard stories of Bill saying things like "No, YOU stand back!", and things like that, so it surprised me that he would write a great fiddle tune for the glory of the fiddler, taking a back seat on the actual playing. I guess there's more to ol' Bill than meets the eye, eh?

[pickinpete]

Originally Posted by man dough nollij

I guess there's more to ol' Bill than meets the eye, eh?

Thats perhaps the wisest, most agreeable thing sed in this whole thread!

[mandozilla]

Patrick when I was commenting about the quote you wrote I didn't mean to single you out or cast aspersions on you.

I was referring to the gang of Monroe detractors that, for whatever reason, always seem to gravitate to Monroe conversations and try to stir the pot. I realize that everyone is not a Monroe fan and I don't have a problem with that. But it seems to me, and maybe I'm too sensitive about the topic, that some of them take glee in dragging Bill, and his accomplishments, down...and more so as time goes by.

Sorry Patrick if you took my remarks personally.

[earthsave]

I didnt care for Casey's version. I thought it created a vacuum.

[Fred Keller]

At the risk of adding fuel to a fire (though I hope it won't), I believe it's important to understand the dynamic of the band leader/band system that Bill ran. I'm no expert by any stretch, but I do know for a fact that authorship of songs developed under Bill's tutelage or in conjunction with Bill can be difficult to pin down.

It has not always been the custom for an individual to copyright things written. At least during some of Bill's career I understand that it was the custom for the bandleader to claim authorship of material developed by the band (possibly explaining Walls of Time written with Peter Rowan?).

In addition, Bill was always composing. He was always bouncing tunes off of his band mates and he did indeed compose music that he thought the banjo or fiddle could do better than the mandolin (not composed by Bill, but it's a fact that on the early White House Blues he insisted that Scruggs play the breaks). Bill even forgot stuff he had written. I've heard that Tanyards (I think it was) had to be more or less re-invented due to parts being forgotten.

What I'm suggesting is what others have suggested: it's conceivable that Bill, Kenny or both wrote the tune. It's difficult to imply a motive without having been there and especially in light of the fact that there seems to be no hard feelings on anyone's part, at least about Jer. Ridge. For my part, I can't hear the tune without them both in the middle of it.

[swampstomper]

White House Blues was with Rudy Lyle, I think. You are probably thinking of Molly & Tenbroeks, indeed with Earl the first time around, then in 1957 with Don Stover. In all 3 cases indeed Mon insisted that they were banjo tunes and the banjo should take all the breaks.

About band leader vs. member -- it's pretty well established that Flatt wrote Little Cabin Home on the Hill, and Clyde Moody wrote KY Waltz, both attributed to Monroe. He also bought songs outright. See the Rosenberg discography for details on these.

As for Walls of Time, Rowan has repeatedly told the story (in almost all his concerts) that Mon had the inspiration and opening line... also the whole "mood" of being a Blue Grass boy... without these, the song would not have come into being. Rowan just wanted co-writer credits.

[Fred Keller]

Thanks for fleshing it out, swampstomper!

[woodwizard]

Originally Posted by evanreilly

And, just because I can, I am sharing a live version of WSM playing all four (4!!!) parts of Jerusalem Ridge. Brought to you courtesy of the other mandolin player on the cut.
Listen carefully!

Thanks for that Evan. Thaten' is a smoken'! I bet you've got some very interesting stories.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If you care to read the two Biographies of Bill Monroe that are available,you'll soon find out that there was more to the man than could meet a Football ground full of eyes.A driven,tough & complex character - thank the good Lord for that,or we may never have had Bluegrass,
Saska

[mandozilla]

Or we might have had bluegrass music that was wimpy, timid, and limp!

[man dough nollij]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

Or we might have had bluegrass music that was wimpy, timid, and limp!

It might have even emerged as a variant of disco... I can just see the Bee Gees doing Blisco (or would that be Disgrass?).

[Mike Bromley]

Disgrassful!

[mandozilla]

Somehow I have a hard time picturing Big Mon in a polyester suit and platform shoes on stage.

What if he hired the Beach Boys to tour with him then it might have been Bluebeach Music and his outfit would have been Bill Monroe and his Blue Beach Boys. (Lee, I'm trying real hard not to use the laughing smilies when posting near you.)

Or maybe joined up with the Temptations and it would have been Mowgrass music!

[ralph johansson]

Originally Posted by swampstomper

About band leader vs. member -- it's pretty well established that Flatt wrote Little Cabin Home on the Hill, and Clyde Moody wrote KY Waltz, both attributed to Monroe. He also bought songs outright. See the Rosenberg discography for details on these.

the first is a documented fact; e.g. monroe ackowledged flatt's authorship on a live album in the late 70's.

as for the second fact it would be interesting to know your source for this information. according to smith's bio one tomie thompson claimed authorship to the lyrics, and brought the issue to court. according to the same source monroe admitted that he had commissioned thompson to set lyrics to this tune, and then bought the lyrics.

what you are claiming, then, is that monroe commissioned lyrics to somebody else's tune. that's very interesting, and something that rosenberg-wolfe missed altogether. again, what is the documentation?

[mandozilla]

Ralph, take a deep breath and relax. We're just kibbitzing here not conducting a serious debate. We've all read the same FACTS you quote like a robot but jeez man, in the scheme of things, it ain't THAT important. Have some fun man.

[ralph johansson]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

That's exactly what I want to understand. It appears some folks have a need to tear down others, or others' work, whom they have a dislike, or even hatred for. Isn't it enough for them to say,"Bill Monroe? I think he sucks" or whatever and move along.

What's the point of being so vehement and insistent upon denegrating or belittling the work of one of Americas' musical geniuses?...especially when he's not around to defend himself?

o'connor's record was released in 1993. monroe was still alive. he was even on that project, with byron berline, on gold rush.

would it anger you if i told you that mr. berline helped shape monroe's idea into a genuine fiddle tune, and actually contributed the whole out chorus on the recording? if so, email mr. berline.

[swampstomper]

Originally Posted by ralph johansson

the first is a documented fact; e.g. monroe ackowledged flatt's authorship on a live album in the late 70's.

as for the second fact it would be interesting to know your source for this information. according to smith's bio one tomie thompson claimed authorship to the lyrics, and brought the issue to court. according to the same source monroe admitted that he had commissioned thompson to set lyrics to this tune, and then bought the lyrics.

what you are claiming, then, is that monroe commissioned lyrics to somebody else's tune. that's very interesting, and something that rosenberg-wolfe missed altogether. again, what is the documentation?

About KY Waltz, that is indeed not documented as such. However, I recently bought the excellent Bear Family Records 16798 "Bud's Bounce", with all the recordings of Bud Isaacs (Mr "Slowly" if you are not a pedal-steel fan), which includes his version of KY Waltz. The liner notes are by Eddie Stubbs, who is the most authoritative source I can imagine. Discussing the song, Stubbs does not come right out and say Moody wrote it, but implies it very, very strongly. You be the judge:

"Bill Monroe recorded Kentucky Waltz for Columbia in 1945, and it became one of his signature tunes. Clyde Moody, the Hillbilly Waltz King, who worked with Monroe from 1940-44, stated that he actually wrote the song and that Monroe put his name on the song (interestingly, Moody went on to author and record many songs like Kentucky Waltz while Monroe didn't)."

That last comment is, if I know Eddie, his way of saying that he agrees with Moody. And if you listen to the song, it's completely unlike anything else Monroe wrote.

[mandozilla]

would it anger you if i told you that mr. berline helped shape monroe's idea into a genuine fiddle tune, and actually contributed the whole out chorus on the recording? if so, email mr. berline.

UH, No. I believe you on this one cause I've discussed it with him in person. I met him in 1972 at a New Years Eve pickin' party here in L.A. and knew him until he moved to Oklahoma. Breath deep...ahhh.

[Mike Bunting]

No one gets this "sparky" discussing Beatles tunes as opposed to Lennon-McCartney tunes! It's like a rodeo.

[mandozilla]

No one gets this "sparky" discussing Beatles tunes as opposed to Lennon-McCartney tunes! It's like a rodeo.

Would that be "Sparky" or "Snarky"?

[Mike Bunting]

Sparky, sparks a'flyin'. Pager used the phrase "goin' all sparky" in another thread and I like it so much I'm going to use it till I'm (or you are) sick of it!

[Billy1]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

By saying that one could say that Bill was indeed saying that Kenny wrote Jerusalem Ridge. On the other hand he could merely be stating that Jerusalem Ridge is one of the tunes Kenny plays the best!

In the final analysis, who cares really? And what does it matter? It's a beautiful tune so lets all have fun playing it and just enjoy it.

Mandozilla is correct, Bill is saying that it is Kenny's best played number. I've heard him use this phrase many times when introducing a band member to do a solo. Ya'll leave Bill alone