Over emphasis on instrumentals.

[Fretbear]

You play what you want to play to please yourself, but the fact is, you can quite easily touch a huge crowd with a well-sang, simple heartfelt vocal, whereas even the fanciest, most difficult instrumental can still often leave people unmoved. At the right time and place (between other vocals) the right instrumental number can blow the doors off the place.

"I encourage all the picking in the world, but please, learn to sing..."
Doyle Lawson

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote - "I wonder what the next 'Dueling B**jos' will be?" - they're already here. The next version of John Henry or Nine Pound Hammer i hear, i'll scream blue murder,
Saska

[Mike Snyder]

The Cafe is mandocentric, no doubt. Was ol' Bill more widely known for his mandolin, or the high lonesome vocals? Me, the only reason for me to own a mandolin is to have something in my hands while I sing harmony. I love to pick, but long ago realized that I'll never have the chops to be an accomplished bluegrass mandolin player. So I chop where appropriate, try to keep my breaks simple, close to the melody, gettin' better at double stops. But when the singin' commences, I'm there. Bluegrass instrumental can touch your audience emotionally. Bill conveyed plenty of emotion with his Loar. My Last Days. But I can think of no instrumental that is as touching as Uncle Pen, or Walls of Time. All your ratios sound about right. A good instrumental can wake the audience up. But they really love the vocals. That is waht makes them want to shake & howdy afterwards.
Around here, the new FMB or Dueling Headaches is either Steel Rails or Wagon Wheel.

[farmerjones]

Yes, pickers like pickin tunes. And audiences connect more with songs. But to mention again, tiresome songs, now i prefer to call them "beloved" songs. Sure they may be easy to play. So i try to play them well, and always give them my respect. Wabash Cannonball, Rollin My Sweet Babies Arms, Mule Skinner Blues, etc. Myself, i gotta play Orange Blossum Special as well, every darned time. At first i thought it was lame, but there's a few older faces you should watch while you play. It grabs you back.

i wasn't a singer at first either, but it kinda worked backwards. Hearing an instrument played in tune, really got me singing on pitch.
I don't think there's such a thing as a bad voice, if it's on a pitch. It could be on the 3rd, or 4th, or whatever harmony as well, for that matter.
I'll say it again, there are no bad voices, it's just another instrument.

[JeffD]

Originally Posted by farmerjones

I don't think there's such a thing as a bad voice, if it's on a pitch. It could be on the 3rd, or 4th, or whatever harmony as well, for that matter.
I'll say it again, there are no bad voices, it's just another instrument.

Oh I disagree.

Its just that those who can't sing generally don't sing, so ya don't hear that many bad voices. You say "...if it's on pitch", well keeping a voice on pitch is for some a lot harder than keeping an instrument on pitch. And singing good harmony, that is a gift.

And we are not talking about just singing to please oneself in the shower. Its got to be good enough for the audience, which everyone seems to agree are really there for the vocals.

Yes its just another instrument - and I would not presume to play that instrument in public until or unless I had practiced and studied enough to be entertaining.

do re me

[lgc]

I don't think whether you can sing or not is the question. What is important is to learn how to play in such a way that is subjugated to the vocal part. There is obviously tons of room for people who don't sing. However, in BG and most forms of music, instrumentalists need to figure out how to support the vocals because that is what most people are coming to hear. There is almost nothing less musical than a picker who runs all over a set because they fail to respect the dynamic of vocally oriented music.

[Cayenne]

I'd say that the general consensus here is that there can be an 'Over emphasis on instrumentals'.

[mandozilla]

Just as an aside, I joke a lot about b**jo pickers. I know that instrumentals are their bread and butter God bless 'em. But a good b**jo picker can add so much more to the BG ensemble.

Besides drive and rhythm I love good b**jo back-up on vocals. Problem is, it seems to me, that good b**jo back-up is becoming a dying art out here in Socal. I guess that's part of the beef I have about the ratio of instrumentals to vocals.

All I can say is thank the Lord for ***bert the b**jo picker from down south who's getting cozier jamming with the group I jam with...he's awesome and I hope that the younger b**joists that hang with us will take a lesson or two from ***berts picking...he has restored my faith in mankind!

[JeffD]

Originally Posted by lgc

However, in BG and most forms of music, instrumentalists need to figure out how to support the vocals because that is what most people are coming to hear. .

Now lets not generalize to "most forms of music" Once we step outside of bluegrass the equation changes. Classical music outside of opera is almost purely instrumental. A lot of jazz the vocals are just a means of setting up the instrumentals. Old time can often be overwhelmingly instrumental, with perhaps a few vovals thrown in at the end of a tune. And has been mentioned, the dance repertoir is huge, with contra dancing, English country dancing, Scottish country dancing, Irish, Irish step dancing, and Natalie McMasters all that Nova Scotia fiddle and dance music. I don't go to one of her concerts to hear her sing. There's all the Italian traditional dance music I am learning about, and ball room dancing and the percentage of vocals that a wedding dance band would use might be very different. A friend of mine plays in an accoustic band that does corporate dinners at hotels and restaurants. Very few vocals called for. And theres many a concert of fiddle tunes, celtic or nordic or eastern european where if there are any vocals they are kind of there for a little variety or to set up a blistering fiddle set.

And thats just Western music.

But bluegrass, rock, pop, singer songwriter folk, and many other very popular forms of music are very popular, and yes, if yer gonna play that you have to either sing, or support the singing.


Please don't misunderstand, I don't hate vocals - quite the opposite, where and when they are important to the music and done well I love it. But to me the voice is another instrument, like say the saxaphone. And while I like to hear a good sax player, and I can enjoy music that has sxaphone in it. Its not, for me, the main thing I listen to or look for in music.

[mrbook]

A guy I used to play with insisted that every set had 12 songs and 2 instrumentals - no more, no less. I don't believe he plays in public anymore. I think audiences like songs over instrumentals, but in one band I play in we often do 4-5 instrumentals in a set. Our fiddler doesn't sing, and the rest of us switch off singing lead, so I like to feature him as much as everyone else. The tunes are short, and mostly him playing unless I take a quick break, but it gives him a chance to "sing."

In another band we have more soloists and do play many isntrumentals, but again we keep them short. Don't go around 2 or 3 times, but everyone takes one good break and we sing the next song. Bluegrass, as well as most types of music, requires a balance between the instrumental and vocal aspects.

[earthsave]

Bluegrass without a banjo is definitely different. If I had my choice, I'd like to banjo, fiddle, mandolin, but we have problems finding and keeping fiddlers. The drive and rolls of a banjo just leave a bit of a hole when they are missing.

[mandozilla]

The drive and rolls of a b**jo just leave a bit of a hole when they are missing

Yes sir, that and a bass fiddle...it's just not the same without them.

[MWM]

Go to any big bluegrass festival and stroll through the camp jam areas. Crowds tend to gather around jams with good 3-part harmony singing. Good instrumental jams draw mostly pickers.

We generally play one instrumental per set - sometimes two. It gives our voices a short break.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'm afraid that i'm a "it's not Bluegrass without a Banjo" proponent.Call it what you will,without a Banjo the 'sound' of a Bluegrass band isn't there. I agree with the observations re.Bass Fiddles as well.Years back,when i had a band,when we eventually found a Bass player,the whole sound just 'expanded'. Bass Guitars just don't sound the same as a Bass Fiddle,but i suppose their 'portability' & not least the MUCH lower cost,make them an attractive addition to many bands,
Saska

[mandolirius]

Originally Posted by saska

I'm afraid that i'm a "it's not Bluegrass without a Banjo" proponent.Call it what you will,without a Banjo the 'sound' of a Bluegrass band isn't there.
Saska

I generally agree but then there's "Manzanita" by Tony Rice. I know it's the exception rather than the rule, but it sounds like bluegrass to me.

[mandozilla]

I'm afraid that i'm a "it's not Bluegrass without a Banjo" proponent.

I generally agree but then there's "Manzanita" by Tony Rice. I know it's the exception rather than the rule, but it sounds like bluegrass to me.

I ain't going there...Next!

[LateBloomer]

OK, back on the "Tunes vs. Song" track. Seems to me tunes are like abstract non-objective paintings (nothing in it you can name). Some people will connect with an abstract very deeply, and non-verbally... hard to describe, but it's just "there" or "right". I think the portion of people in the Art world who really like abstract work is 10-25%. Is it the same in the Music world? If so, that leaves a huge percentage of verbal people who like representational paintings and "songs".

[mandozilla]

I think the portion of people in the Art world who really like abstract work is 10-25%. Is it the same in the Music world? If so, that leaves a huge percentage of verbal people who like representational paintings and "songs".

Wow L.A. Thats an interesting observation from an artists point of view...I wonder?

10% to 25% like abstract art (instrumentals) and 75% to 90% prefer representational art (vocals).

These proportions seem about the same as the typical bluegrass audiences indeed. Unless the audience is all musicians which it seldom is.

[LateBloomer]

Mark,
I should have qualified that statement..... 10-25% of individuals who have an interest in Art, and maybe taken some Art History or read some books on the subject will like Abstract work. When I teach Art History the students say "I hate that modern crud". But when I teach them what the artist was interested in - or trying to portray, how the work evolved, then they are more open to the work. Perhaps it's the same in music, the more you learn the more likely you will like instrumentals.

p.s. there are always those who will like the cruddy work in art and music, what's the equivalent of Bob Ross in the music world?

[mandozilla]

p.s. there are always those who will like the cruddy work in art and music, what's the equivalent of Bob Ross in the music world?

Tiny Tim?

I guess if we're talking about an audience of those in the know, musicians, I think maybe the instrumental to vocal ratio would probably be 75% instrumentals to 25 % vocals.

[JeffD]

Originally Posted by LateBloomer

OK, back on the "Tunes vs. Song" track. Seems to me tunes are like abstract non-objective paintings (nothing in it you can name). Some people will connect with an abstract very deeply, and non-verbally... hard to describe, but it's just "there" or "right". I think the portion of people in the Art world who really like abstract work is 10-25%. Is it the same in the Music world? If so, that leaves a huge percentage of verbal people who like representational paintings and "songs".

Again, if your talking BG, you may be right. Perhaps a litte high but certainly in the right direction.

If your talking other kinds of music, the percentages are all over the place.

We gotta keep some perspective. If commercial radio is any indicator, there are more classical music fans in the world than bluegrass fans, and I would think they much more the otherway - tune versus song, abstract versus representational, etc. - more jazz fans than bluegrass too, and the same thing goes.

Now there is probably more pop and rock and contemporary country than anything else on the commercial radio, and with those genres I think 10 % abstract would be perhaps too high.

[LateBloomer]

I totally agree with you Jeff!

[mandozilla]

Again, if your talking BG, you may be right. Perhaps a litte high but certainly in the right direction.

If your talking other kinds of music, the percentages are all over the place.

Mandolin Cafe Message Board > Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants...we're talking bluegrass on this one.

[LateBloomer]

I have to admit I was thinking Bluegrass - but that's because I that's about all I listen to.

[GRW3]

I was intrigued by this thread. It made me reflect. The jams I prefer usually do more songs than tunes. Some nights no tunes at all (particularly if no fiddles show up). I like to play tunes but I like to sing too. The other night I was at a slow jam with three fiddles and we played a lot of tunes. It was fun but I wouldn't want it as a steady diet.

Occasionally I'll pull up an all tune CD image on my IPod but I'm much more likely to listen to a primarily vocal album. Overall I'm more likely to hear tunes when I have the IPod on Shuffle than by direct choice.

I'm not a big jam expert but from my limited exposure it seems the tune jams are much more likely to be closed shops than the vocal jams. I always look forward to somebody new showing up who might bring a fresh song to the jam.

The number one problem with tunes is people playing them too fast all the time. It's one thing to cook off Cripple Creek as a filler but tune after tune at a breakneck pace is just BORING to the listener. The cognoscenti may like but the average listener, musician or not, is just left cold by it. So many notes that you can't hear the melody, played too fast to recognize it anyway.

I strongly recommend listening to Bryan Sutton's "Not To Far From the Tree" CD. Duets with other leading flatpickers. The tunes are played at a reasonable pace where the melody and embellishments can be clearly heard.