Mandolin at sessions

[Gusten]

I was wondering... Do you people play the mandolin as your main instrument at sessions, or do you bring it along but mainly play banjo or guitar or something else?

In larger sessions, I have a problem getting heard on the mandolin. Small sessions - no problem, and at medium session I can usually get through with a little effort, but I get completely drowned at larger ones. The Gypsy Spirit that I bought from a café-member is rather loud, and I use a hard pick, a pretty hard attack, and try to keep the mandolin away from my body to produce more sound. All in all, I think I sound relatively loud, for a mandolin.

Recently, I've picked up playing the concertina, and I'm having a blast with it. I still enjoy playing the mandolin, and I know a whole lot more tunes on it, but I play more and more on the concertina at sessions. Also, a friend of mine has a tenor banjo, and even though I think the mandolin sounds alot better, I can understand if many mandolin players would bring a banjo to sessions instead.

I'm just curious how you guys reason here.

Best regards
Gusten

[Randi Gormley]

Mandolin is my primary session instrument but since i'm an intermediate player, i don't mind if nobody can hear me but myself.

[JeffD]

I only bring my mandolin.

Are you using a thick enough pick? That might help the volume.

[Woody Turner]

Though you wouldn't normally think of it for TIM, the daily featured mandolin on the Cafe's main page is one possible solution to your problem. I don't own one but have heard Rich Del Grosso play one. The National may be the loudest mandolin out there, and many find the tone to be sweet.

[Gusten]

Jeff, what mandolin are you playing on sessions? Do you feel comfortable with the volume your producing, while playing at a large session?

The picks I use are just bellow 1 mm thick, and rather stiff. I suppose it's been a few months since I changed strings, which has some impact on volume (and overall tone of course). I use D'addario J74 strings.

Hrm, I feel I'm getting myself on a side-track here, I was mainly interested if people here bring their mandolins as main instruments to sessions.

Edit: Oh, and yes the Nationals seem to be mentioned alot when discussing volume. Maybe some day I'll try and get my hands on one, but probably not within the near future. Never had the oppurtunity to try one.

[steve V. johnson]

I'm a zouk guy, mainly, and I take a guitar. Rarely I take the mandolin, but it's more about my level of proficiency than being heard. The one I take is a Rigel A+. My '36 Kalamazoo KM-11 is louder, tho, but I haven't tried it in a session at all. Yet. Real different instruments...

Our sessions used to be up to twenty folks, but are now rarely more than eight or ten. Some mandolin anecdotes...

One of our longtime session players (just retired and moved away) played concertina and fiddle first but then picked up mandolin because of a shoulder injury that made fiddle and 'tina painful. The mandolin, a Flatiron Army-Navy style, was quite audible.

Another of our regulars has a Chris Baird Arches Flat-Top mandolin (spruce over walnut, which I found some years ago for this player) and doubles on button accordion. The Arches Flat-Top is really heroic in the session, but it can get overwhelmed with more than about eight players.

Probably the best session mandolin I know of belongs to Erik Peterson who lives in Indianapolis.
It's a spruce/rosewood Joe Foley. It can be overcome a bit by a box and several fiddles, but not completely. Nice.

Session sizes... a difficult topic in a way... When our session was really big, folks used to drop out and talk, drink, eat, hang out... Not by arrangement, but spontaneously, so that it didn't sound like a bloody orchestra and everyone could get some quality time. That was really nice.
I was so happy to know and play with such considerate folks. I know of other situations in which sessions have grown large and a smaller group would go to another room or agree to meet another time and place so they could have a smaller session.

Good luck with your 'tina, too, Gusten!

stv

[Eddie Sheehy]

I bring one of my mandos an an OM or zouk. They don't need another guitar player, and my banjo playing is only so-so... I'm not too pushed about being heard over the banjos and fiddles...

[JeffD]

Originally Posted by Gusten

Jeff, what mandolin are you playing on sessions? Do you feel comfortable with the volume your producing, while playing at a large session?
.

Well I switch off. I bring the Gibson A2 a little more than half the time (see avatar), and I bring my Weber Aspen II the rest of the time, (except the one or two times I bring my Washburn bowlback.)

On the Gibson and the Weber I use the J74s as well. The Gibson is pretty loud, a tad louder than the Weber I think, (at least thats what it sounds like from where I sit.)

I use the Wegen TF140 pick when playing at a jam, as it is a louder brighter pick than the Red Bear or the Blue Chip, which I prefer in small groups or performing solo.

[Bertram Henze]

Being an OM player, I bring only that. With that, I can do most of what others do on mandolin or guitar, so I have no reason to carry several instruments. Besides, I find it hard enough to protect one instrument from damage in a crowded session (falling glasses, musicians stilting their way to the restrooms...). I have no more volume problem, since my OM recently took to a final (?) phase of opening up (after 5 years, go figure). The right combination of strings, bridge and pick eventually will carry you above the din.

Bertram

[Gusten]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences! Sounds encouraging, so I'll definately keep bringing my mandolin to sessions. There is usually a banjo player or three, and I'm often the only mandolin player, so I feel that I (when heard) contribute to the sound. Maybe I'm preaching to the choir here, but I really love the sound of the mandolin. Such light, beautiful sound - works very well with fiddles, flutes and concertinas, and adds a bit of attack to the tone without drifting too far away from the overall sound.

Anyways - thanks!

[Bruce Evans]

At our weekly session last night we had about 20 musicians. About two weeks ago we had 6. Instrument content last night.

fiddles - about 7
hammered dulcimer - 1
guitars - 6
bodhrans - 2
banjo - 1
bouzouki - 1
singer - 1 plus the massed ensemble
flute - 1
whistles - 2
mandolin - 1

I always take a guitar. That's my security blanket. I also took my plectrum banjo for the first time. My friend who plays HD always brings his mandolin and that's what I play for a few tunes. Otherwise I would need a crew of roadies to haul my stuff.

About "being heard" in a large session. I empathize completely, but I think the desire to be heard can lead to drastic overplaying. It has and does for me. When you are in a big session it's tough to be the star. The best way to be heard is to play a different instrument. That different voice tends to stick out - until there are three or four such intruments, then it gets back to the overplaying phenomenon.

So, no. I don't usually take my mandolin. I play OPM. (Other peoples mandolins)

[improziv]

I play mostly mandolin at sessions although I'm playing more and more tenor banjo these days. The volume can be an issue and can lead to playing too hard and sacrificing tone and technique. However, many of the regulars have learned to give me some sonic "space" when I start a set and play a little softer so that they can hear me.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's surprising how much louder the mandolin sounds when you are in front of it rather than behind. If you have a chance, let someone else play your mandolin at the session and listen. In that case, you have to deal with your own inability to hear yourself well. I have developed a (probably bad ) habit of being hunched over the mandolin so that I can hear it. But then again just look at Angelina Carberry and what her posture is when she is playing her banjo... Some sessions are amplified which can solve part of the problem but our best sessions are not.

I say - if you like the mandolin stick with it. You will learn to extract more sound and your session mates will hopefully learn to accommodate you

[Steve L]

I'm playing mostly tenor banjo these days at sessions. I play mando if there's a set of tunes only 1 or 2 other people know or to weave around the melody on songs (We have a lot of singers.) I'd like to use the mando and bouzouki more for tunes, but they do get lost easily.

[foldedpath]

I bring a mandolin as my main session instrument. Sometimes I'll also bring a guitar, if I think there's a chance that the regular guitar player or other guitar player's won't show up.

If I'm pretty sure there will be a guitar player there, I might bring the OM, although this gets into session diplomacy. There is usually another player there who plays an OM, and I'm not sure the session needs two. I'm almost always the only mandolin player at the session, so that's one reason to focus on it. Another reason is that I can lead off a tune on mandolin when my turn comes around in a "round robin" circle. It's a chance to have some input on the tune selection. I couldn't do with guitar, since I haven't learned the fiddle tunes as melody lines on the guitar fretboard.

The mandolin is a Lebeda F type, strung up with J74's. I actually prefer the sound of TI Starks, but they don't have enough "cut" for this sort of thing. The Lebeda is loud enough to contribute to the music if there aren't more than about three fiddlers in the group. The main session I've been attending has an occasional concertina or flute player, but the core group is mostly fiddlers. If there are five or six fiddlers, then the mandolin can get lost in the mix, and I'll end up tilting it up and leaning forward so I can even hear myself (I see Avi just mentioned something similar).

There's another tricky thing that I've noticed when playing mandolin in a fiddle-heavy session. The note duration on mandolin is short, the fiddle notes are longer sustain, and we're all playing exactly the same notes. So, the better I "meld" with the other players in session and really lock into the tune, the more I tend to disappear in the overall sound. It's self-defeating, in a way. I can hear myself much better in a big group of fiddlers when I'm hitting clams left and right.

I suppose I could try a resonator mandolin for the larger sessions, but one nice thing about the Lebeda is that I can back off and play very quietly, when I'm learning a new tune "on the fly" and don't want to disturb the other players. I'm not sure how well that would work with a resonator.

Anyway, I haven't felt any strong desire to switch to a different melody instrument for Irish (or OldTime) sessions. The only one that would be remotely tempting is the fiddle, and I don't have another lifetime available to climb that learning curve.

[mikeyes]

Whenever I travel by plane, I usually take my mandolin. I play mandolin and banjo in our local session and there are times when there will be three mandolins (out of 9 people, usually) at the same session.

It is likely that you will be heard in the session. If there are twenty people in a session, even the banjos don't get heard - the O'Flaherty Retreat will have that happen sometimes, but since the teachers are all at the same session it is worth the hassle.

[KCrook]

I play in several jam sessions which vary by skill level and the number of people playing. One of those jams is a "Beginner's Slo-Jam," and I try to play the Mandolin at that jam. The other jam that I play regularly in is more of an ‘intermediate,’ level jam, where I tend to be the only guitar player, so I play the guitar almost exclusively at that intermediate jam.

As I begin to gain confidence in the Mandolin, and if we can add another guitar player to the intermediate jam, I may well begin to play the Mandolin more and more in that intermediate Jam. But, for now, it is all fun.

While I lug both instruments to both jams, I do find it difficult to 'switch,' between the two instruments, especially at the intermediate jam where we are playing tunes up tempo, as my fingers become used to the guitar's fretboard, and switching to the Mando can result in some sour notes until I get used to it.

[Eddie Sheehy]

KC, exactly where is that jam located? What kind of music?

[steve V. johnson]

Tangent to the thread...

"... session diplomacy...", indeed.

Often when we have multiple banjos, guitars, OMs, accordions (rare, to have more of those), we
end up having folks take turns. Depending on who it is, sometimes I can play zouk with another zouk/om player if one us capos up, or we capo differently.

Another thing that works out nicely is if a (say) trio of folks have a tune or set that they have in an arrangement, they play it just as the trio once thru and then another time thru so that all can join in.

I love sessions...

stv

[JeffD]

Originally Posted by Gusten

but I really love the sound of the mandolin. Such light, beautiful sound - works very well with fiddles, flutes and concertinas, !

I would only modify by saying that the mandolin does not have to sound light. My Gibson can sound pretty thick and creamy, lots of body, especially when the strings are about two weeks old and I us the wegen pick, and play loud with lots of tremolo. On slow airs and laments for example.

[Jim Yates]

Originally Posted by Bruce Evans

At our weekly session last night we had about 20 musicians. About two weeks ago we had 6. Instrument content last night.

fiddles - about 7
hammered dulcimer - 1
guitars - 6
bodhrans - 2
banjo - 1
bouzouki - 1
singer - 1 plus the massed ensemble
flute - 1
whistles - 2
mandolin - 1

I always take a guitar. That's my security blanket. I also took my plectrum banjo for the first time. My friend who plays HD always brings his mandolin and that's what I play for a few tunes. Otherwise I would need a crew of roadies to haul my stuff.

About "being heard" in a large session. I empathize completely, but I think the desire to be heard can lead to drastic overplaying. It has and does for me. When you are in a big session it's tough to be the star. The best way to be heard is to play a different instrument. That different voice tends to stick out - until there are three or four such intruments, then it gets back to the overplaying phenomenon.

So, no. I don't usually take my mandolin. I play OPM. (Other peoples mandolins)

Bruce,
Does your group play from a tune book? If not, how do you all play the same chords? In a session, I've found that one chording instrument is all that is needed. (Some would say that none is the ideal number.) There are so many different "RIGHT" chords for fiddle tunes and though each set of chords sounds fine by itself, they can sound awful if played together.

[David Currie]

I play regularly in a jam session which although small in number - usually between 4 & 6 - has at the core either uilleann (Irish) pipes or Northumbrian pipes. I have rather a sweet sounding (and reasonably loud) Michael Kelly LFS which can hold its own with the Northumbrian pipes but with the Uilleanns, if I really want to be able to hear myself, I take along my resonator. The trouble I have is the resonator is a bit too loud for playing regularly at home and I do prefer the action of the MK.

I wouldn't think about taking another instrument though. I play the mandolin, end of!

[BBarton]

I used to only take my mandolin and loved to play it at sessions, but I couldn't be heard (or so some others said). So I solved the problem -- about two years ago I took up Irish tenor banjo. Now I am heard!!! And I'm having great fun with it too (and no one's complained)... Also, I agree with Jim (above) -- one guitarist doing chords is enough, for the same reasons.

[steve V. johnson]

Bruce sez, "Also, I agree with Jim (above) -- one guitarist doing chords is enough, for the same reasons."

This speaks to the limitations of the John Doyle method of accompaniment. There really can be only one.

However, if there are other ways of playing guitar effectively in Irish sessions...

stv

[whistler]

The mandolin is my main session instrument - it's the one Im most competent on. I sometimes take a tenor banjo, a fiddle and whistle to sessions. But whether or not they come out of their cases depends on the session. If I consider the standard to be high, I will stick to mandolin. If it is of a more intermediate standard, then I might allow myself the freedom to switch instruments for the odd tune. But I still find the mandolin the most versatile - in my hands, at least. My local session where I live now has a rather mixed repertoire, featuring quite a high proportion of slower tunes and only a smattering of the Irish jigs and reels that I have the strongest grounding in. Whilst I am quite adaptable on the mandolin, on the other instruments I am more or less restricted to Irish tunes.

As regards being heard on mandolin, I don't have much of a problem when playing with fiddles, concertina, whistles, flutes etc. - in a small to medium-sized session, at least. I might sometimes pick up the banjo when there's a loud accordion to contend with. But being heard is not necessarily my objective, anyway. No matter how 'low in the mix' I am, so to speak, I am always an ingredient in the overall sound. If people want to hear me in particular, they can ask me to play a tune on my own.

BTW, I play a mandolin I built myself (No.1) and I use a trusty Jim Dunlop Nylon .73mm
(a .60mm on the banjo).

[Gusten]

It's great to hear so many people actually bring the mandolin. And yes, being heard shouldn't really be the main objective at a session, but I myself grow a bit tired of not being heard. I'm not talking about blending in with the crowd, but being completely over-run.

I too find that the mandolin is the instrument where I can really express myself. And even if I'll ever get equally skilled... well, decent, at playing concertina, I still love the sound of the mandolin, and will most likely keep bringing it to session.

Thank you all, again, for sharing your thoughts and experiences!