Kentucky, past and present

[purplemonky]

I recently purchased a Kentucky Mandolin on EBay and have been assured by you fine folk here on Mandolin Cafe that it is a KM 250 or 250s made in Korea. I am wondering what the difference is (if any), between the current Chinese model and the Korean one of the past?

Thank you guys,

- D

[mandozilla]

Kentucky Mandolins

Made in Japan - Best

Made in Korea - Better than Chinese made

Made in China - Not too bad really

[Bob DeVellis]

I concur with Mandozilla

[Folkmusician.com]

The current Chinese model underwent a redesign. One big difference being the radiused fingerboard.

When Kentucky production first moved to China (2001?), they took a major hit to quality, but they have steadily improved since and the last couple of years have seen some of the best Kentucky's yet. I don't believe the current crop takes a back seat to the Korean made versions.

[The Mandolin Store]

We have seen quite a few of the Japanese and Korean mandolins and based on what I have have seen, the new Kentuckys coming from China have consistently better sound than those that were built in either Korea or Japan. Last year we had a Japanese KM650 and KM700 and while they looked very nice, they did not sound as good as the current production mandolins. The different neck joint used in some of the Japanese production of course is part of this. We also had a Sumi era KM1500 that was a dynamite mandolin so of course the Sumi built pieces are exceptions to that rule. The instruments they are making today consistently are lighter - thinner tops and smaller tone bars. Now, they may not be as good in the finish dept but there's not doubt they are sounding better as a general rule
Thanks,
Dennis

[Howard33]

I have to ask...

Is there a particular reason outside the obvious one of cost of labor that a Kentucky mandolin is made anywhere outside of Kentucky? Granted, it's mostly about name branding but it seems disingenuous to call it a Kentucky mandolin when there's no real Kentucky in it. After all, most mandolins follow one of two basic patterns that really haven't changed much in many many years unless there is something specific to Kentucky brand mandolins that allows you to pick them out of a lineup without having to look at a label of some sort letting you know its a Kentucky.

Basically I wonder if you defaced any headstock name and removed any sticker from the inner body could you tell the maker of the instrument simply by sound, quality of material or playability? A blind sampling if you will...

[Lefty Luthier]

I agree 100% with you. Most of the Asian built junk is an insult to the trade. To call one of these things a mandolin is really more than I can bear. I have been in several of the Chinese "factories" and was appalled at the shoddy workmanship and casual attitude of the workers.

[Douglas McMullin]

I got a used KM-250 off ebay last year as a mandolin to take on the boat and to the cabin. I have to say that after replacing the bridge and doing a little setup work it is not a half bad player. I am pretty happy playing this when I cant have my Collings, and even with the TKL case I got for it I have less than $200 invested.

I assume this is a newer Chinese model. Is there a system to the Saga serial numbers for determining the date & origins? Mine is SN: 060618-3. As a guess I would think that means June 18, 2006?

[pager]

Originally Posted by Lefty Luthier

I agree 100% with you. Most of the Asian built junk is an insult to the trade. To call one of these things a mandolin is really more than I can bear. I have been in several of the Chinese "factories" and was appalled at the shoddy workmanship and casual attitude of the workers.

Lefty, I am not sure you are righty on this issue.

Jillian

[allenhopkins]

Two of my favorite controversies! Here are two of my favorite answers:

1] I, too, wish that Asian-made instruments had Asian names. It particularly bothers me when they're given the names of former American builders (Washburn, Epiphone, Flatiron, Regal, Recording King, etc.), when there's no relationship between the Asian instruments and those made by the American firms they try to invoke. What's wrong with Jade, Takamine, Yamaha, etc.? You don't see Toyota or Honda hiding their country of origin -- nor Sony, Nintendo, Hyundai -- the list goes on. But I realize that these instruments are built in Asia to be sold in America, so they get names like Kentucky, Morgan Monroe, Blueridge, Galveston, Johnson, Savannah, Michael Kelly, The Loar, and so forth. And, honestly, the "Anglo-Saxonization" of instrument nameplates is partially to avoid the attitude that was expressed above: that Asian instruments are "junk."

2] Which they're not -- surely not all of them. Of course there's a lot of Asian-built junk on the instrument market, but there are also some fine Asian instrument builders: Eastman, Jade, Kentucky, The Loar, JBovier, even Rover instruments have received excellent quality/price evaluations here. The reality in this world of globalization and wage differentials, is that Asian-made instruments now dominate the entry-level and much of the mid-range markets. No one in America that I know of is building a mandolin for less than $500 list, and most American instruments are into four figures. If someone in the US wants to stem the tide of Asian imports, that person's going to have to figure out how to build a quality instrument for half of what today's price is. Doubt that's going to happen.

To refer to Asian-built instruments as "junk" is to make an unwarranted and inaccurate generalization. Most "junk" instruments are from Asia, but many excellent mandolins are imported from there as well. And, if I had my way, they'd have Asian nameplates -- doubt that's going to happen, either.

[neal]

I just heard the voice of reason, and it made good sense. Some of the stuff, not all, but the mid-range at least coming out of China is keepable. Haven't played the mandolins, but the guitars and ukes are really very good in the fit-finish-playability-sound category. Impressive stuff.

I had Lefty's attitude 2 years ago when I pulled down a Guild Gad-30R from the wall at a local, was terribly impressed and then took a look at the label. The thing leapt out of my hands and back on to the wall. Eeeewww!

I bought it the next day.

Edit: not dissin' you Lefty, I understand, and if you've seen the factories first hand, well you have one up on me, probably a few up on me, I'm just relating my own.

[pager]

"To refer to Asian-built instruments as "junk" is to make an unwarranted and inaccurate generalization."
Thank you Allen for that comment.
That kind of narrow generalization makes sparks shoot out of my head.
You just prevented this 28 year old French cajun girl from goin all sparky.
Jillian

[John Rosett]

Originally Posted by Howard33

Is there a particular reason outside the obvious one of cost of labor that a Kentucky mandolin is made anywhere outside of Kentucky?

They did their legal research, and it turns out that the state of Kentucky can't sue them over it.
There's a cheap plywood mandolin marketed under the "Montana" brand. We're all pretty sore about it, but what can we do?
Seriously, how long has it been since someone named "Gibson" was associated with the Gibson company? Around 100 years?

[allenhopkins]

Originally Posted by pager

You just prevented this 28 year old French cajun girl from goin all sparky.

This 65-year-old WASP guy says, "You're welcome."

[Mike Bunting]

"Goin' all sparky", love it. Aha, I finally can stop biting my tongue on this topic.

[frankenstein]

Hey lefty come and join us in the sin bin..

[purplemonky]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

Kentucky Mandolins

Made in Japan - Best

Made in Korea - Better than Chinese made

Made in China - Not too bad really

What makes this so? is it the materials used, the care in the process, the look, This is what I am wondering? I can look at the Saga web page and see what the new model is made of, but they don't tell me how my Korean Mando is made.

[billkilpatrick]

Originally Posted by purplemonky

What makes this so? is it the materials used, the care in the process, the look, This is what I am wondering? I can look at the Saga web page and see what the new model is made of, but they don't tell me how my Korean Mando is made.

this is it ... the nub of the question:

assuming that the level of craftsmanship is on a par - materials as well - how can anyone assembling an instrument in one part of the world, in accordance to a prescribed design, make something "less" than someone in another part of the world?

one thing i gleaned from charango construction (bolivia, in my instance) is that the narrowness in the lines of the sound board counts (narrow lines produces a more resonate sound - wider, less.)

i wonder if a stroll down the production line of those assembling gibson mandolins in its heyday would be radically different from those assembling "epiphone" (or whatever) mandolins in china, today.

for many reasons - apart from the thing itself - nothing could compete with a tailor made - luthier made (just for you) mandolin ... but if there's a discernible difference, an objective difference between that and a well-made "bespoke" mandolin, i'd be very interested to know.

-bill*

[mandolinbill1949]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

Kentucky Mandolins

Made in Japan - Best

Made in Korea - Better than Chinese made

Made in China - Not too bad really

Ok I have owned 2 or 3 versions of each. And here is how they match up japanese made are better than anyone of them in quality workmanship and soundwise.Chinese comes in a very very close second to the japan models. I mean you really have to listen to tell the difference between a mij km-1000 and a mic km-1000.And the korean A models are ###### on both sides tops caving in and no tone.The f models are pretty decent but take a back seat to the chinese models

[mandolinbill1949]

Originally Posted by Lefty Luthier

I agree 100% with you. Most of the Asian built junk is an insult to the trade. To call one of these things a mandolin is really more than I can bear. I have been in several of the Chinese "factories" and was appalled at the shoddy workmanship and casual attitude of the workers.

I have a asian made kentucky km-1000 japan model that will hold its own with any f style mandolin i have ever owned including my gibson mm in fact the tone is better on the sumi built than the master model gibson.

[Greg H.]

My understanding of the Japanese Kentuckys is there were two VERY different factories. There was the group of luthiers (of which Sumi was one. . .) in which the high end Kentuckys were built--including the KM1000, KM1500, and the DAWGs--and another factory in which all the others were built. So, only the three top models really made the difference. The other Japanese Kentuckys were, from my understanding, of no particular note. So, I believe the reputation of the great Japanese Kentuckys is really built just on the high end models.

With the Korean mandolins. . . . uh. . .. well I have no doubt that there are some good ones out there, unfortunately I haven't seen them. The ones I have tried seemed rather dead. . .sounded as if they were filled with socks.

At first the Chinese mandolins (that I've tried) seemed very much like the Korean version. However, after the Eastmans started to be noticed it seemed the Kentuckys were making significant improvments. At this point the two (Kentucky and Eastman) seemed to both be good options in the >=$1,500 range.

This is, at least, my experiences with Kentuckys. If someone with greater knowledge on this has a different opinion here I'm quite willing to concede this (and I know there are a number of cafe regulars who do have more first hand knowledge here).

[mandolinbill1949]

Originally Posted by Greg H.

My understanding of the Japanese Kentuckys is there were two VERY different factories. There was the group of luthiers (of which Sumi was one. . .) in which the high end Kentuckys were built--including the KM1000, KM1500, and the DAWGs--and another factory in which all the others were built. So, only the three top models really made the difference. The other Japanese Kentuckys were, from my understanding, of no particular note. So, I believe the reputation of the great Japanese Kentuckys is really built just on the high end models.

With the Korean mandolins. . . . uh. . .. well I have no doubt that there are some good ones out there, unfortunately I haven't seen them. The ones I have tried seemed rather dead. . .sounded as if they were filled with socks.

At first the Chinese mandolins (that I've tried) seemed very much like the Korean version. However, after the Eastmans started to be noticed it seemed the Kentuckys were making significant improvments. At this point the two (Kentucky and Eastman) seemed to both be good options in the >=$1,500 range.

This is, at least, my experiences with Kentuckys. If someone with greater knowledge on this has a different opinion here I'm quite willing to concede this (and I know there are a number of cafe regulars who do have more first hand knowledge here).

Even the factory made japan models like the km-800 km-850 are better sounding than the new chinese f models excluding the chinese km-1000

[Desert Rose]

In my experience Lefty is like a scientist who first decides on the results he wants of his vast experiement THEN he designs the whole process to insure he gets only what he wants

As most here know since 2001 Ive been VERY active on the ground in Chinese instrument factories. It was myself and Sumi recruited to turn around the unbearable situation of the new Chinese Kentucky problems when they changed from Korea. Since then Ive worked in more Chinese factories than almost anyone else I know.

Lefty shows EXTREME ignorance of the way Asian manufacturing works, not just China.

In China still and for the forseeable future you can find makers making the $2.55 acoustic guitars SERIOUSLY, you can also find the Blueridge, Kentucky, Goldstar, Recording King Guild Carolina Acoustic makers who are quite capable of making stringed instruments that are giving American CEOs many sleepless nights I PROMISE, not the least is CF Martin IV

You can find all extremes and everything in between

In MY experience, working directly with factory workers, the guys and girls making $5 a day, for 4 to 8 weeks a year since 2001 I find that as a generalization, American workers are lacking in some important ways. The thing that defines a Chinese factory is the senior management NOT the workers, same here by the way. Lefty is cocked and locked and chomping at the bit to say what he did, even though it was misguided. You get a factory like the one who makes the Blueridge and Guild guitars whos management is focused on the BIG prize years down the line and the workers can deliver quality and statements like Leftys are laughable. Spend some time in the AXL Recording King factorys and I GUARANTEE you they will teach you a thing or two about pride. And thats the bottom line. The workers WANT to show the world what they can do, they have a 5000 year old culture and have things to offer the west that we are not ready to recieve in so many ways. Ive worked infactorys that turn out the 2 dollarguitars and I thought what a waste, these workers are busting at the seams to show what they can do and the owners are happy making these toys

The people of China are amazed at this thing called capitalism and taking full advantage of their new oppertunities. These people have PRIDE that at minimum equals the best of the west, all they need is a management team willing to let them work. There are over 200 stringed instrument factorys in China now and as India progresses the two dollar factorys will migrate there, the future of Chinese making is firmly planted in evolving quality. The factorys that hold on to the two dollar market will go, and the fight will be those who can build quality and control price, just like Japan thirty years ago.
My job is planting the seeds. Ive taught and continue to teach those interested in western making styles, and teach them our damands of quality. My planting is already bearing fruit with a number of brands shaking up the market. And I am happy to have the chance to do this

[MikeEdgerton]

Originally Posted by John Rosett

...Seriously, how long has it been since someone named "Gibson" was associated with the Gibson company? Around 100 years?

Take the time to read the history of Gibson and you'll see that Orville really never had much to do with the company other than lending his name and a patent. Take a look at this link.

[MikeEdgerton]

Originally Posted by mandolinbill1949

I have a asian made kentucky km-1000 japan model that will hold its own with any f style mandolin i have ever owned including my gibson mm in fact the tone is better on the sumi built than the master model gibson.

Except the "Sumi built" KM-1000 is not true, he didn't build complete instruments in that time period. That well documented all over the cafe.