Bluegrass playing vs. fiddle tunes

[banjoboy]

Sorry for being so chatty, but had another question. I've been playing banjo since 1976. When I was learning, it was easier to learn BG tunes rather than fildde tunes. In BG songs you pick a melody, but surround it with rolls (all smoke and mirrors). But fiddle tunes were harder, at least to really get the melody out. If you tried to play melodically, you really had to be on your game, cause if you miss a note, it could really mess up your break. With mandolin, it seems that fiddle tunes are easier. Lots of eigth notes, but songs are tougher. No rolls. How do you make that transition? Do you fill in the melody notes with a bunch of other eigth notes, tremolo on one note, double stops. All of the above? What advise do you have for a beginner?

[JeffD]

Originally Posted by banjoboy

Sorry for being so chatty, but had another question. I've been playing banjo since 1976. When I was learning, it was easier to learn BG tunes rather than fildde tunes. In BG songs you pick a melody, but surround it with rolls (all smoke and mirrors). But fiddle tunes were harder, at least to really get the melody out. If you tried to play melodically, you really had to be on your game, cause if you miss a note, it could really mess up your break. With mandolin, it seems that fiddle tunes are easier. Lots of eigth notes, but songs are tougher. No rolls. How do you make that transition? Do you fill in the melody notes with a bunch of other eigth notes, tremolo on one note, double stops. All of the above? What advise do you have for a beginner?

I am not sure I understand your question. Also I haven't ever played a five string banjo. But here is what I do.

When I play a fiddle tune on the mandolin I just play the tune. Pretty much "as written". I'll play the longer melody notes with a tremolo, and stay pretty much note for note in unison with the fiddle. If I can, sometimes I'll drop down an octave or (yikes) go up an octave, to stay off the fiddle's note. But this is not often possible (or easy).

If I am going to take a break or be featured in some way, I'll add open strings and double stop harmonies where appropriate to the style and genre of the tune, but other than that its the melody note for note.

If I am playing a song, supporting a vocalist, I will do chords (chop chords if appropriate), and perhaps some two and three note extended tremolo where it works. If I am taking a break on a song, I will play the melody as above, or perhaps be a little more adventureous and depart from the melody. But my improvised departures from the melody in a singing song tend to emulate the melodic departures a vocalist would use. I keep the tune in mind, and the words if I know them, and try to stay at least along side the melody of the song.

My breaks are tame by bluegrass standards, but thats me.

[allenhopkins]

Fiddle tunes fit well on the mandolin, in most cases, for the obvious reason that the mandolin is tuned like a fiddle. Mandolin and fiddle playing tends to be linear, as I look at it, because the fifths/seventh-fret tuning means you tend to stay longer on one string before you jump to the next string. Banjo, and to some extent guitar, are more chordal, since with fourths-and-third tuning you move to the adjacent string sooner. I know this is a gross oversimplification, but it's how I've come to view it after playing mandolin, banjo and guitar for four decades or so.

Playing -- or really backing up -- songs on a mandolin is different. Guitar and banjo generally chord along behind the singer; the banjo may play fairly continuous rolls, or "comp" on the off-beats (similar to what the mandolin does with its "chop"). Mandolin has a lot of options. Generally, you don't want to play the melody when it's also being sung, though you should use the melody as the basis for your break. A tremolo harmony line to the singer can work, as can little melodic "answers" after the vocal phrases. Off-beat "chops," or even open-string chords, can work if they don't step on what other instruments are doing. If you're doing a break to a slower song, you can fill in with extra ornamental notes, tremolo on the melody, add some variations to the melody, or go off on an improvisational tangent that incorporates the chords, suggests but doesn't follow the melody, and ends up back at a reasonable point when the singer resumes. Little "turn-arounds" between verses can also add interest. If you can cross-pick at a decent tempo, you can use that to incorporate melody notes with arpeggiated accompanying notes, similar to what a finger-picked banjo might do.

Some things that have worked for me. I love to put in harmonies to the vocal line, but have to watch myself, not to get carried away and detract from the singing -- which is, after all, the point of the song.

[Tim2723]

I'm assuming you're playing a five-banger. For fiddle tunes, at least Irish fiddle tunes, the four-string tenor banjo is far more common, and then it is tuned usually to GDAE, an octave below your mandolin. Fiddle tunes tend to just fall right under your fingers that way. I can't play a fiddle tune on a five-string to save my life, though it is the Irish folk singer's banjo because of its better chordal ability, especially when in Chicago tuning.

P.S. Does that have anything at all to do with your question?

[GTG]

Depends what you mean by 'tougher'. If you're ok with a bit of improvisation and creativity, I find songs easier, because you can sort of play what you want (around the melody line, of course). Yes - tremolo, double stops, little turnarounds, etc. are all good, depending on the tempo. With fiddle tunes, I find I'm always trying to squeeze in all the notes the fiddle plays, which is very hard at up-beat tempos (tempi). Proper bluegrass picking doesn't demand an exact copy of the fiddle line at all, but I tend to learn tunes by reading noted fiddle charts, so it sort of feels like the goal to at least learn it initially by playing all those notes....

[auteq]

Just like you had "rolls" you need to learn licks and turn arounds that fit certain situations in the tune. Also, learn your scales, modes, etc and go off of the melody for a bit coming back to the tune for a bit, this ain't perfect but things will click w/ time.

One thing I do, and this may be cheating, is in the middle of a BG solo stick in another fiddle tune run. In fact many "turn arounds/licks" are quotes from fiddle tunes. (cf. the ending of AK Taveller, or begining of Fishers HP)

[Greg H.]

Well, one approach would be to try for some of Jessie McReynold's cross picking techniques. That would actually be slightly more like what you've been doing in the banjo.

In general though, the goal on mandolin is still to focus first on getting the melody together. This can be found using tremolo, double stops, or using eighth notes adding additional feeling around the melody.

[mandozilla]

Lots of eigth notes, but songs are tougher. No rolls. How do you make that transition? Do you fill in the melody notes with a bunch of other eigth notes, tremolo on one note, double stops. All of the above? What advise do you have for a beginner?

B**joboy...IMHO the answer is YES! Not all fiddle tunes are solid 1/8 notes. Vomiting 1/8 notes at a fast pace can be fun but I think sometimes it's rather boring for the listener and it's boring to me.

More feeling can be conveyed with mandolin 'tricks' like, rests, double stops trembling, etc. than just a sequence of notes. Of course, not all fiddle numbers lend themselves to the 'tricks', but many do and I love to use them.

[Jonmiller]

Excellent question! Rolls and slides, a couple Scrugg's licks would surely carry one to the next melody line. On mandolin you "doodle and noodle", play the melody and then noodle the scale around it, and you can do it a thousand different ways, patterns and rhythms.
Take the old song "Crawdad Hole" you play the melody (you get a line I'll get a pole honey) and then you have 8 counts of fill until the next melody line-or you can fill right through the next line without hitting any melody at all, play your current thought or run all the way to the next phrase. Once one gets a grasp of scales and modes that surrounds that chord, there is where music gets to be fun! Not just the "memorized Scruggs lick" that I would always play when I was at that part of the banjo neck-now I can play what ever I want, or whatever my skill level is. I can turn around that lick again a thousand different ways.
I'm just starting to get to that place in G, D, and C. A is getting worked on and F is coming along as I was also a 4 stringer and know alot of old standards that I'm trying to rethink on mandolin.
A great question!

[farmerjones]

I personally play fiddle tunes to keep in shape for Bluegrass jamming. I've not found a simulation for the BG jam. It's all about the moment, when it's right.
I play fiddle tunes, to keep things greased.

[Fretbear]

I know exactly what you mean. One thing I like to do for practice is to work up some mandolin breaks to songs to sound completely generic the way you will sometimes hear a banjo player play his rolls over common changes of a song and which could be one of several songs until you hear the vocal. I do this using sustained tremolo on double-stops in place of the rolls and actually try to make it sound as close to banjo parts as possible. I might not play a break like this, but it is handy for getting a classic bluegrass sound as well as for faking over the changes of common tunes that you might not have worked up a break for yet.

[mandozilla]

I might not play a break like this, but it is handy for getting a classic bluegrass sound as well as for faking over the changes of common tunes that you might not have worked up a break for yet.

Ah Fretbear, bluegrass songs and double-stop tremolo...what would we do without them? Double-stop tremolo is my bread and butter when improvising on bluegrass songs I don't know.

[Mike Snyder]

I,ve grown to love hanging out with the fiddle/dulcimer crowd and playing fiddle tunes and Celtic stuff all day (and night). It seems to have helped me keep better track of the melody when I'm in with the bluegrass crowd. I use the double stops a lot more than I used to, but they shore stick out like a sore thumb when I miss one. Hurts my ears! I admire you guys who can nail those bluegrass leads. That's some fast and furious stuff.

[Jonmiller]

Even in playing the fiddle tunes and the rags-one can memorize them note for note and fill in every beat- but I think it's vital knowing what chord your playing out of and play it a little different every time. Mix it up!

[jimbob]

Farmerjones...I agree and would add that learning fiddle tunes is a good way to hone skills that is not quite as boring as scales and arpegios(sp?). It's good to have several fiddle tunes worked up to be able to play with other folks. They're pretty standard.