f-style as american icon

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by journeybear

More people will see it there, as well being people more attuned to its value and importance.

Originally Posted by mandozilla

And have genuine appreciation for it. Except for that 75% that Allen mentioned.

That 75% is probably a little generous! The mando-ignorance factor might be closer to 90% in this country, hopefully lower in Italy. Hopefully also lower at the Country Music Hall of Fame, where such statistical analysis surveys would be skewed by certain characteristics of the population.

[Chris Keth]

Originally Posted by journeybear

Donate? You takin' crazy, now! They can have my mandolin when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers!

That is probably how they get 95% of their stuff, from posthumous donations.

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by PanaDP

That is probably how they get 95% of their stuff, from posthumous donations.

I'm amending my will as we speak ... NOT!

Actually, what they should have is a mandolin actually carved by Orville Gibson himself. One of his prototypes - carved from a single piece of wood - showed up on ebay a few months ago for 50 grand. I don't think it sold. If I can track down a photo I'll post it. It was definitely unique.

Nope, my link is gone. But I found this amazing site, http://www.mandolinarchive.com which is full of all kinds of candidates. Like this. Or this. I could go on ... But yeah, the trick would be getting someone to donate a good representative instrument.

[barney 59]

I went onto the Smithsonian website and discovered that an f5 is a comet..Lloyd Loar designed some kind of magnetic pickup. They did however have Orville's mandolin---Orville Wright that is!

[billkilpatrick]

from the smithsonian site:

"The Smithsonian acquired its first musical instruments in 1847, when the institution was in its infancy. The collection now contains more than 5,000 concert and folk instruments of American and European heritage, including a quartet of exquisite 18th century Stradivari instruments, the dented cornet of jazz legend Louis Armstrong, Tito Puente’s autographed timbales, and the Yellow Cloud guitar that belonged to Prince."

... how does one get to see these 5000 instruments on-line, i wonder? ... there MUST be a mandolin in there somewhere.

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by billkilpatrick

... how does one get to see these 5000 instruments on-line, i wonder? ... there MUST be a mandolin in there somewhere.

I posolutely absitively agree with you. As I said, I popped "mandolin" into their search engine and got 165 hits, but the only actual mandolin I could find in all that was Orville Wright's - and that's on loan!

I guess you could go to the website, http://www.si.edu, and search on each individual instrument's name ... slow and tedious, but you should get results.

PanaDP is probably right - something has to be donated. The Smithsonian may well not be interested in allocating funds to acquire representative instruments unless it feels they are of great public interest.
I don't know what their criteria are, but judging from what they have done (or not done) in this area, this seems a plausible interpretation.

This is their only mention of Orville Gibson, in an article about the development of the electric guitar:

By the 1850s, C. F. Martin had developed "X-bracing" to reinforce the guitar's body, as well as other innovationsleading to a new American flattop guitar design. In the 1890s, Orville Gibson's carved-body guitar not only increased its volume, it also set standards for instrument makers in the early 20th century and blazed the trail for the archtop guitar.

[journeybear]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I present herewith for your perusement, edification, and mortification, the entire online offerings of the world renowned Smithsonian Institution concerning the mandolin, apart from the word's appearance in articles about other subjects or various lists.

From a total of 165 hits, only 54 are displayed, the rest being repetitions. Even amongst these 54 results there are duplicates. The first photograph is also the first hit their search engine provides; this is what we're up against.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“Orv has begun lessons on his mandolin and we are getting even with the neighborhood for the noise they have made on pianos. He sits around and picks that thing until I can hardly stay in the house.”
Katharine Wright, Orville and Wilbur's sister, 1900

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Academic Appointees at Natural History 1975

POSTDOCTORAL FELLOWSHIP AWARDS

Hambly, Scott. SI Postdoctoral Fellow, University of Pennsylvania. "Cultural Developments in Form, Use, and Function of the Mandolin in The U.S. 1875-1975." Working with Scott Odell. Department of Anthropology. 01-Jul-75 to 30-Jun-76.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As a longtime devotee of the instrument, I would characterize this situation as, in a word, grim.

[mandozilla]

and the yellow cloud guitar that belonged to prince.

PRINCE !?!

Are they serious? Just goes to show you how pervasive (and cr**py/cheesy) American 'Pop' culture is...they have Prince but no WSM?

I'll bet they even have a 'Pet Rock', a 'Chia Pet', the bass guitar from the 'Archies', and a protrait of Billy Maze! JEEEZ!

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

Are they serious? Just goes to show you pervasive (and cr**py/cheesy) American 'Pop' culture is...they have Prince but no WSM?

I'll bet they even have a 'Pet Rock', a 'Chia Pet', the bass guitar from the 'Archies', and a protrait of Billy Maze! JEEEZ!

Hey! That's America, buddy. Land of the free, home of the Drive-Thru

FWIW, for all I know they do have Bill Monroe, but I don't see how they could without mentioning a mandolin. As I mentioned previously, I'm glad the CMHF has his F-5. It's a much more suitable place.

But yeah, imagine MY disbelief as I was looking at every one of their paltry list of offerings, getting progressively more pessimistic, and then found as I got to page six that there's just a third of what little they said they had.

[Stephen Lind]

main reason reason for lack of recognition?
there isn't enough money in it

we all know that the mandolins and other American instruments discussed in this thread are some of the best, most unique, home grown, and just plain great things to have come out of this country of ours

some of those others have generated huge amounts of money and HAVE become icons

mandolins have not but we here are aware of their place in the history and culture of The USA

let that be enough
fwiw
it is for me

[Chris Keth]

Nobody take offense at this but I think it's just a matter of popularity. Compare the number of album sales of Bill Monroe to a band like Kiss, Prince, The Allman Bros., etc. My guess is you could add up the entirety of the history of the bluegrass genre and it would pale in comparison to Prince's album sales.

The Smithsonian only has to much money and space, and they try to document American culture as a function of popularity as an attempt to get as much as they can. I am surprised, however, that there isn't more interest in the mandolin as a part of bluegrass, one of very few musical forms that is uniquely American.

[wreded]

From PanaDP:
I am surprised, however, that there isn't more interest in the mandolin as a part of bluegrass, one of very few musical forms that is uniquely American.

i'm not surprised. Most of the American's i've run into (and i am one) think "Beverly Hillbillies" or "Deliverance" when You talk bluegrass. i've got lots of bluegrass and mandolin music on my work computer; You should watch the office clear out when i start playing it.

By and large Americans don't think of the past with wonder, they think of it as "back in the day;" as if anything that happened longer ago than last week is ancient history. i remember my amazement when i first heard of mandolin orchestras. My reaction was; "Man, i'd like to hear that!" rather than the more common, "What a bunch of rubes."

i think it's a pity that more people don't recognize bluegrass as American or the "American" mandolin as a contribution by and for their own culture.

[mandopixie]

Originally Posted by wreded

I'm not surprised. Most of the Americans I've run into (and I am one) think "Beverly Hillbillies" or "Deliverance" when you talk bluegrass. I've got lots of bluegrass and mandolin music on my work computer; You should watch the office clear out when I start playing it.
By and large Americans don't think of the past with wonder, they think of it as "back in the day"; as if anything that happened longer ago than last week is ancient history. I remember my amazement when I first heard of mandolin orchestras. My reaction was; "Man, I'd like to hear that"! rather than the more common, "What a bunch of rubes".
I think it's a pity that more people don't recognize bluegrass as American, or the "American" mandolin as a contribution by and for their own culture.

Very well put, Mr wreded, sir. Get that man a drink on me!

[JEStanek]

This obscurity and challenge of old time and Bluegrass is nothing new. I have a book of Bill Maudlin's Army Cartoons from WWII (for the younger wipper-snappers). On page 10 there's a two panel one of Mixed reactions to Tschaikovsky and to "hillbilly music" (with a guitar, fiddle, and harmonica drawn in) with guys in the barracks almost coming to blows over each.

America is a wonderful, vast, and populous place with distinctive cultural bits all over it. Not all of it is universally known. Much of the culture is at best regionally known. Similar arguments can be made about Jazz being a distinctive American music and art form like Bluegrass but Jazz has the benefit of having an urban base with a higher density of folks exposed to it, increasing awareness of it.

I've never heard of a mandolin orchestra referred to as a bunch of rubes, ever. Maybe a surprised comment about never hearing of one before. I suspect they are only a little more obscure than Flappers, Speak Easys, breadlines or the homeless camps in DC's Parks in the 30s. The only complaint I heard of a modern mandolin orchestra was it was playing more pops music instead or selections from the mandolin orchestra library (I heard this complaint in Australia). If you're impressed with the idea of a mandolin orchestra doing music from the teens and 20s there are several Café members (including the Director of the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra) who could give you advice on starting one of your own or gladly accept a donation to keep their good works going.

I'll certainly agree the archtop and Florentine mandolin are unique American developments. I feel they're iconic as I'm interested in the mandolin. I'm sure my mando fan-boy talk sounds as odd to others as some of my friends sound to me when they go on about vintage tractors, model T cars of various configurations and firearms! I don't see any of the items listed previously as Nationally Culturally Iconic. I understand cultural icons are what I imagine people say right off the top of their head when you say "America"... Baseball, Coke, Rock-n-roll, Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse.

If we're going to yoink a Loar out of circulation to have in a museum I'm happier to have it in the CMHF where it's target audience can appreciate it more for what it is. There are plenty of music festivals and venues in the DC area to introduce people to what the mandolin sounds like and can do. I've never been inspired to play by seeing an instrument in a glass case. I've been inspired by hearing it played by someone.

Just my thoughts on this interesting subject.

Jamie

[mandozilla]

America is a wonderful, vast, and populous place with distinctive cultural bits all over it. Not all of it is universally known.

Well put Jamie!

[mandozilla]

America is a wonderful, vast, and populous place with distinctive cultural bits all over it. Not all of it is universally known.

Well put Jamie!

I kid you not! Just this afternoon, the cable guy was running some new cable and connections in my den/music room for my upgrade to digital cable. Anyway, in this room there are instruments on the wall, a b**jo, fiddle, dobro (uh, resonator guitar), a couple of mandolins and so forth, instrument cases piled up in the corner and recording equipment/mikes and stuff.

This cable guy is a young, hispanic (american born BTW) man, I'd say mid 20's. As he's working he asks if I play and sing. I tell him "yes, ever d**n day!" He says "what kind of music?" I says "bluegrass music". A look of confusion and bewilderment comes over his face and I says "You don't know what bluegrass music is do you?" He shakes his head in the negative. And I says "It's too complicated to explain right now" as he continued with his work and never gave it a second thought.

And some time later he points to an F style mando on the wall and says "what kind of little guitar is that?' And I tells him "Thats' an American Mandolin". He says "I've never seen one of those before." Just like you all were sayin', mandolins and mandolin music are relatively unkown.

Sad, But it's the true life!

[man dough nollij]

I hope you at least inflicted 'Rawhide' on him!

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by JEStanek

I'll certainly agree the archtop and Florentine mandolin are unique American developments. I feel they're iconic as I'm interested in the mandolin. ... I understand cultural icons are what I imagine people say right off the top of their head when you say "America"... Baseball, Coke, Rock-n-roll, Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse.

If we're going to yoink a Loar out of circulation to have in a museum I'm happier to have it in the CMHF where it's target audience can appreciate it more for what it is. ... I've never been inspired to play by seeing an instrument in a glass case. I've been inspired by hearing it played by someone.

Jamie, as usual, makes some valid, well-considered points. I got to thinking, well, what are we really talking about here? So I thought I would revisit the original post (often a good idea befrore posting a reply):

Originally Posted by billkilpatrick

those neighbors and friends here in italy who've seen my f-4 mandolin invariably ask:"what is it?" everyone knows the neaopolitan-style mandolin - correct recognition of the flatback runs about half and half.

if it's not already considered as such, i wonder if the f-style can assume its rightful place in the smithsonian as a genuinely american instrument?

- bill*

There seems a discrepancy between the thread's title and Bill's question. We've discussed the mandolin's status (or lack thereof) as an icon, and it does indeed seem to have fallen short there - so far! As to the latter question - I'm pretty sure how most of us feel about this, but how would the Smithsonian? As I've noted before, its minuscule representation in their collection indicates an astonishing oversight, even indifference, concerning the instrument itself and its cultural significance. Someone suggested the Smithsonian's collection is the result of donations. So I got to thinking, what is the Smithsonian's purpose? What are they trying to accomplish?

So I went back to their website, to see what I might find about this. Here is their mission statement:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Smithson's Gift
"I then bequeath the whole of my property...to the United States of America, to found at Washington, under the name of the Smithsonian Institution, an Establishment for the increase & diffusion of knowledge..."
James Smithson (1765-1829)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pretty succinct, pretty vague, and nothing whatsoever about any American orientation. There's a little more here:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An Unexpected Bequest

In 1826, James Smithson, a British scientist, drew up his last will and testament, naming his nephew as beneficiary. Smithson stipulated that, should the nephew die without heirs (as he would in 1835), the estate should go “to the United States of America, to found at Washington, under the name of the Smithsonian Institution, an establishment for the increase and diffusion of knowledge among men.”

The motives behind Smithson’s bequest remain mysterious. He never traveled to the United States and seems to have had no correspondence with anyone here. Some have suggested that his bequest was motivated in part by revenge against the rigidities of British society, which had denied Smithson, who was illegitimate, the right to use his father’s name. Others have suggested it reflected his interest in the Enlightenment ideals of democracy and universal education.

The Birth of an Institution

Smithson died in 1829, and six years later, President Andrew Jackson announced the bequest to Congress. On July 1, 1836, Congress accepted the legacy bequeathed to the nation and pledged the faith of the United States to the charitable trust. In September 1838, Smithson’s legacy, which amounted to more than 100,000 gold sovereigns, was delivered to the mint at Philadelphia. Recoined in U.S. currency, the gift amounted to more than $500,000.

After eight years of sometimes heated debate, an Act of Congress signed by President James K. Polk on Aug. 10, 1846, established the Smithsonian Institution as a trust to be administered by a Board of Regents and a Secretary of the Smithsonian.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought it rather amusing to learn that if Smithson's son had produced an heir, none of this would have come about.

It seems as if conjecture and interpretation of intent have been with the SI since its beginning. What it has come to be has evolved from what it began as, and its true mission is subject to speculation. They don't help matters any by not expanding on the quote from Smithson's will to pose a mission statement more in keeping with the way the SI has evolved and how it operates today.

They do expand on the institution's devlopment in an online exhibit, but I think we've got all we need to know here. There doesn't seem to be any mission to safeguard specifically American achievements in a variety of disciplines, although clearly this is exactly what they have done. The exclusion of American mandolin development and culture is significant to us here because of our interest in the instrument, but I daresay an argument could be made that it belongs in their collection as much as any other examples of American culture.

Since the collection appears to be donation-driven, if you have an instrument you would like to donate, here is how (the italics are mine):

Donation of Objects

HOW DO I DONATE AN OBJECT TO THE COLLECTIONS?

The Smithsonian Institution generally accepts donations of objects only if the items truly fill a gap in or complement the collections, and then only after careful consideration by museum curators, administrators and directors. Because of this rigorous selection process, the Smithsonian adds to its collections only a tiny percentage of what is offered. This is to ensure that the objects acquired are appropriate to the collections and can be properly cared for and used.

If you are considering making a gift or bequest of objects, please contact:

Smithsonian Information
Email: info@si.edu
Address: Smithsonian Information
PO Box 37012
SI Building, Room 153, MRC 010
Washington, DC 20013-7012
Phone: 202.633.1000

Please include a description, history of ownership, and photographs when applicable.

Under no circumstance should you mail any objects to the Smithsonian without first receiving permission to do so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It seems clear to me that a donated mandolin would "truly fill a gap in or complement the collections," considering they don't have any! (except Orville Wright's, which is on loan). Furthermore, if the Smithsonian Institution is truly dedicated to being "an Establishment for the increase & diffusion of knowledge," they do indeed owe us, the instrument, the country, and the world, in that they should do what they can to increase the general public's awareness of this fine American instrument and its cultural significance.

I wholeheartedly agree with Jamie that Loars are meant to be played, not gawked at in museums, nor for that matter locked away in an investor's climate-controlled vault, though I must admit seeing Bill Monroe's mandolin in the CMHF, where it belongs, was a thrill (on a level with seeing Elvis' white Cadillac, with diamond dust and crushed pearls mixed into the thirty coats of paint, or the dress made by Loretta Lynn that she gave to Sissy Spacek to wear in the movie), and inspired me, but I was already inspired long before this.

I believe there are any number of mandolins carved by Orville Gibson himself that would be worthy candidates for inclusion in the SI, instruments that are clearly museum pieces and not going to be played any more. But you would have to talk to the owners, and they are within their rights to do as they please with their instruments, in which they surely have invested substantially. At least we can see them at The Mandolin Archives and marvel at the craftsmanship that went into them, and the ones that followed, and dream ...

[billkilpatrick]

Originally Posted by man dough nollij

I hope you at least inflicted 'Rawhide' on him!

when i was living in london, 20 years ago or so, i once got stuck in traffic behind a clapped-out morris minor "estate car" (station wagon) filled with some equally clapped-out looking plumbing equipment. the guy driving was huge - absolutely monstrous - jabba the hut ... he looked like he assembled the car around him, rather than got into it. he was probably in his late 50's with dyed black hair combed into the most luxuriant retro-style, elvis-like D.A. (duck's rear-end ...) you've ever seen - huge, "mutton chop" sideburns as well. but best of all ... he had a bumper sticker that read "frankie laine fan club" in large letters and "contact me for details" underneath.

gotta' say ... i was tempted.

[Chris Keth]

Originally Posted by wreded

By and large Americans don't think of the past with wonder, they think of it as "back in the day;" as if anything that happened longer ago than last week is ancient history....i think it's a pity that more people don't recognize bluegrass as American or the "American" mandolin as a contribution by and for their own culture.

I guess I'm a strange young person, then.

[JEStanek]

That's a bummer to have missed a chance to pick a song for the young man working in your home to expand his horizons to a tradtional American music form that grew out of the roots of the Celts in Appalachia and the Blues of the south. A quick analogy would be to Mariachi in Mexico, Choro in Brazil. Since our country is a melting pot with and our largest growing immigrant population comes from Latin America and Mexico, if you wish to keep the music you so love in the American consciousness, it is our jobs as mandolin players to be ambassadors for the instrument and styles. Anytime I tell someone something is too complicated to explain, I tell them a) they're not smart enough to understand and b) never ask anyone about this again. I see those as two coffin nails in keeping a culture alive. Your culture is only as alive as the next generation's grasp on it.

Looking at the Smithsonian's museums I don't see a great fit for a permament display of American Folk Music in one. A limited exhibit in the Castle would make sense. If you guys really want to see the Orville mandolins, should probably add the Washburns, L&H's, and Martins to the list, on display you need to organize and work out a way to get donated (or loaned instruments) into a collection that could be exhibited. Perhaps this could be an excellent collaboration between students of art history, design and, music from schools like ETSU (those with a Bluegrass program) or Berklee. These are our museums, we can influence what kinds of exhibits are available.

To the OP's question again, yes the archtop mandolin and it's Florentine cousin, American Mandolin now being made all over the world... America, Canada, Czech Republic, China, Korea, Australia, Japan, England, Scottland, France, Italy the list goes on!

Jamie

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by JEStanek

Anytime I tell someone something is too complicated to explain, I tell them a) they're not smart enough to understand and b) never ask anyone about this again. I see those as two coffin nails in keeping a culture alive. Your culture is only as alive as the next generation's grasp on it.

Excellent point! This goes to the heart of the oral tradition, which is one of the fundamental means of transmission of heritage and culture. Tell your kids, tell your friends, tell strangers - it's called "dissemination of information." Sometimes it's hard to be nice to people asking, "What is that, some kind of banjo or something?" or "What kind of a guitar is that?" or, what I've run into with the MandoBird, "What is that, Guitar Hero?" Yes, it's frustrating, but we've taken upon ourselves (perhaps unwillingly) the responsibility of explaining this lesser-known instrument along with the desire to simply play it for our enjoyment and hopefully of all those within earshot. In other words ...

Originally Posted by JEStanek

... if you wish to keep the music you so love in the American consciousness, it is our jobs as mandolin players to be ambassadors for the instrument and styles.

Your suggestion concerning some of us organizing an exhibit on our own is brilliant! Who better than dedicated devotees to put together something like this. It would take a lot of time, effort, money, and instruments, but it could be done. It's not going to happen on its own. If such an exhibit could be at least started, perhap the Smithsonian would get interested and help out.

In all fairness to the SI, I neglected to point out one thing concerning my search of their online archive - it's entirely possible not all of their collection has been catalogued yet, and also that not all of what is catalogued is available online. With that said, I tend to think that if they did indeed have mandolins in their collection, there would be some mention - actual instruments should have been catalogued before artistic renderings (dependendent on time of donation, of course). And the fact that searching on "guitar" gets 3120 hits and "banjo" 661 to "mandolin"'s 165 is disheartening.

Now, we can grouse about this situation until the cows jump over the moon and then come home, or we can roll up our sleeves and get to work! Of the two, I'll take the former, because I'm lazy and disorganized and poor and inexperienced and a smarty-pants - wait, this isn't coming out right ... Actually, I'm willing to help with such a project and contribute whatever resources I have, mostly verbal and organizational, but I should not be in charge of anything too important!

[wreded]

i spent over 20 years in the military (ok, maybe not the military but at least the Air Force) and bought my first mandolin in Germany. It was an East German made, plywood monstrosity; but it was an A-style. i didn't know the first thing about mandos and tried to make a few chords on it. The sales people were just aghast at how Americans played mandolin. The other side of the coin is in Turkey i came across a young kid working in a hotel. While waiting for a taxi we started talking about music, his English was better than my Turk, unsurprizingly he'd never heard of bluegrass before. i gave him a tape of my "best of" and didn't see him for awhile. Long story short, the next time i saw him he was raving about this "bluegrass" music, he couldn't get enough of it.
i was more than glad to do my bit and spread a little bit of American culture.
PanaDP, no disparagement intended. Though no longer "young," i've been considered "strange" for a long time.

[mandozilla]

if you wish to keep the music you so love in the American consciousness, it is our jobs as mandolin players to be ambassadors for the instrument and styles. Anytime I tell someone something is too complicated to explain, I tell them a) they're not smart enough to understand and b) never ask anyone about this again. I see those as two coffin nails in keeping a culture alive. Your culture is only as alive as the next generation's grasp on it.

Yeah, you're absolutely right Jamie but let me show how you're wrong.

That would've been the right thing to do. Problem was that at the point he made the inquiry, he was almost done with the job, in a hurry to get back to the shop and get home...And I'm sure he was only being polite and making small talk.

And me, well I got home from working from 10:00 PM Monday Night to 2:00 PM Tuesday afternoon...a double shift...16 hours with an hour commute both ways....And I was due back for the graveyard shift Tuesday night...less than 8 hours later.

With waiting around for a couple of hours (with no sleep since Monday in the daytime) for the cable guy to show up and complete his work I was looking at getting a whopping 2.5 hours of sleep before I commuted the 49.7 miles back to my job by 9:30 pm Tuesday night.

I was pretty much a basket case and had a hard enough time just letting the guy in to to the job. If I had attempted to play a tune for him I probably would've sounded like Bessie's rear end and turned him off to BG and the mandolin for life.

Happy Birthday Jamie...you seem to be getting a bit grouchy in your old age. Just kidding.

[mandozilla]

I'm working on a case sticker design that's in line with this thread.

It still needs some work. What do you think?