Octave Mando + Mandocello = Cittern?

[IanBowden]

Hello all!

I've been pondering the purchase of a cittern. The one I'm looking at has a 25.7" scale and I'd definitely be stringing it in a CGDAE configuration with unision courses. Playing in fifths is what I'm used to.

I currently possess and can play both a 'zouk (tuned GDAE) and a mandocello and believe that, with the acquisition of this cittern, I can perhaps have "two instruments in one." At least, that's what my logical head is telling me. (My heart says that one can never have enough stringed instruments!)

Now I realize that, with the cittern's body being bigger than a 'zouk, I'm not going to get quite the jangly highs that the smaller body provides and the fingerboard is going to be relatively wide. I'm also not going to be obtaining many "full" chords, with five pairs of strings to put my left fingers on. But it's obvious that all of the chord shapes I've thus learned are transferable and are even usable when only strumming the top four - or bottom four - strings.

One other thing I think I know is that the 'C' string of a cittern is typically of a lighter gauge than that of a mandocello. I figure this might make playing that low pair of strings a bit easier on my left fingers.

Any comments from anyone out there about the logic - unfounded or otherwise - of my thinkin?

Cheers!

Ian

[Eddie Sheehy]

I had a similar idea on a smaller scale - a 15" scale, 10-string tuned CGDAE. I use it as a Mandola and a Mandolin. It works great. I assume it can be extrapolated to a 25.7" scale... Might have to experiment with string gauges...

[catmandu2]

Originally Posted by IanBowden

Hello all!

...with the cittern's body being bigger than a 'zouk, I'm not going to get quite the jangly highs that the smaller body provides...

Depends on the instrument; my small-bodied Doyle cittern (25.5" SL) is very "jangly"--even the lower courses.

[groveland]

Originally Posted by IanBowden

I've been pondering the purchase of a cittern. The one I'm looking at has a 25.7" scale and I'd definitely be stringing it in a CGDAE configuration with unision courses. Playing in fifths is what I'm used to.... But it's obvious that all of the chord shapes I've thus learned are transferable and are even usable when only strumming the top four - or bottom four - strings....Any comments from anyone out there about the logic - unfounded or otherwise - of my thinkin?

YES! YES! and YES! Ian, you have just described the instrument of the future! Can you tell I am just a little enthusiastic about this thing?

I would definitely recommend the 5-courses at CGDAE for about a hundred reasons. For now suffice it to say that the big guitar-like range is there (and more), it covers both OM and Mandocello like you said, and it's really the envy of NST guitar players in that you don't have that funny high G on the first string to decide what to do with... The symmetries are stunning across 5 courses (GSPE). Plus the jazz advantages of fifths-tuning are legendary, if you like that sort of thing - And I do!

As for the body size - Mine is a bouzouki-sized cittern, 25.5" scale. It jangles and chorngs if left to its own devices, but with a pair of K&K piezos mixed stereo with a Bill Armstrong mini humbucker at the neck, it gets a more focused sound, kindof the sound of coins falling on an African thumb piano...

Love it. The future.

[Graham McDonald]

I have built several of them, mostly with small (classical/00) guitar bodies. The trick is to get enough bass response without compromising the top end (or vice versa). As I have suggested before, there are sensible scientific reasons why stringed instruments have the limited range they have. Guitars use two octaves E-e on the open strings, and violin/mandolin family instrument less G-e because people worked out by trial and error a long time ago that was what worked best and more recent scientific testing suggests that it is a combination of the air and soundboard resonances and their relationships to each other which determines how an instrument works. Going outside those parameters of open strings adds complications.

That is not to say that a five course instrument in fifths won't work - they certainly can and will - they just need a bit more care and attention to work at their best.

cheers

graham

[John McGann]

I am awaiting a Lawrence Smart 10 string 'dola with fanned frets (Mike Marshall has #1). The C string is nearly 2" longer than the E string.

This fanned fret idea should work great on a 10 string CBOM, but it's true that nuances of tone/response would need careful thinking and tweaking.

Everything effects everything else on an instrument, and in this case, even more so I feel most comfortable on a 23" scale as far as tonal response vs. being able to reach almost anything I need (including minor seconds between string courses), but that's not to say that a great luthier couldn't devise a great sounding 21" or 22" based instrument for GDAE- I just haven't heard one that has the oomph combined with the sparkle of the Sobell...maybe with a 22" E one could get a 24" or so C and still be more or less comfortable.

The body shape etc. would be crucial to get the right blend of deep lows and sparkling highs-no mean feat!

I have the CGDAEG setup on a long scale electric guitar neck (25"), and it really is a stretch beyond what I like (but at least it's single strung!). But the range and symmetry of the tuning is so great that I will struggle with it until I can get a custom build- and I will go for fanned frets for sure.

[trevor]

I have done CGDAE on scales from 23.5" to 26". No need to be too jangly with the right strings. I also have a Smart fanned fret ten string on order... Its a long, long wait.

[mandocrucian]

I think you might look to Sweden for inspiration and design ideas:



Ale Möller with his Swedish bouzouki

Ale Möller's Swedish bouzouki neck (first 9 frets). Note quarter tone frets at 1.5, 3.5 and 5.5, and extended (bass-wise) fretboard on the two bottom strings.

] = nut
o = spot a pinpoint capo may be placed on a single course of strings

Tuning at 0th fret/nut is C-G-D-A-E. #So the two bottom string open at their extended nuts would be A and F

# # # # # # # # # ]=====|==|==|=====|==|==|=====|==|==|=====|=====|== |==|=====
# # # # # # # # # ]=====|==|==|=====|==|==|=====|==|==|=====|=====|== ===|=====
# # # # # # # # # ]=====|==|=o|=====|==|=o|=====|==|==|=====|=====|== ===|=====
# # # ]====o|=====|=====|==|=o|=====|==|=o|====o|==|==|=====|=====|= ====|=====
]====o|====o|====o|=====|====o|=====|====o|====o|==|==|=====|==|==|= ====|=====
-3 # -2 # #-1 # # 0 # # 1 # # 2 # # 3 # # 4 # # 5 # # 6 # # 7 # # 8 # # 9

[IanBowden]

Thanks ya'll for a batch of helpful replies.

I've committed to purchasing one of Nikos Appolonio's citterns. Here are the pix he provided to me of it:





Prior to committing to this luthier, I searched the MandoCafe forums for some references and only found a couple of somewhat vague ones. So, once I've received my instrument and played with it for a few days, I'll make a posting giving my impressions and amateur critique.

Cheers!

Ian

[wadeyankey]

Wow Niles, that thing is terrifying.

[groveland]

Originally Posted by IanBowden

I've committed to purchasing one of Nikos Appolonio's citterns.

His instruments have some interesting characteristics: A zero fret, fixed bridges AND a tailpiece, the strings running across the fixed bridge, and a pickguard on the body. An older web page (2005) says he's been building for 35 years and Judy Collins is/was one of his clients. I am not familiar with him, but the old web page, which is kindof a directory of sorts, says his instruments are 'superlative'.

Looking forward to your review.

[groveland]

And! I ran across this today - A bouzouki-oriented site with some cittern talk. Not a very active site, I don't think, but there amidst posts and emails, a note from Nikos Apollonio:

"Will stack mine up against anyone's. Free seven-day trial; you pay postage. Not cheap but not expensive, either..."

There are a few few pics of his 'bell' models there, including a couple citterns.