Tonerite questions

[Rick Turner]

A pal sent me a couple of "ConAire" vibrators that have suction cups on them, and I've put them on guitar tops and let them go for a while, and yes, they work, too. The suction cups are probably made out of something that would harm varnish or lacquer, but I didn't have a problem on polyester finishes. They are not as gentle as the ToneRite, but they're still way under what the TimbreTech process did.

[MikeEdgerton]

My other concern is somebody throwing somthing into a case that would beat the tar out of the wood. This has to be secured in some way.

[man dough nollij]

Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton

I'm still trying to figure out how to handle Papawhisky's post. If anyone wants to try that keep in mind that vinyl can kill a laquered finish. See this article from Frank Ford's www.frets.com.

What needs to be handled? He was obviously referring to these:

[Rick Lindstrom]

I pulled the trigger on a Tonerite during the sale they were having. The price seemed good and I was hoping to use it to resurrect a mando that should have been better rather than selling it. Here are my thoughts:

First, I want to chime in and say that the Tonerite folks provide class A+ customer service. When I placed the order, Hans promptly emailed thanking me for the order and letting me know that it'd be a week or so before the Tonerite was mailed because they were having a hard time making them fast enough to keep up with the demand. I got another email later telling me about the status of my order, and another when it was shipped.

I wanted the Tonerite to try on a Yellowstone that I had acquired when I thought that all real mandolin players had to use F-styles. The mando had never been really played in, and still sounded tight and new. Getting played in by me wasn't going to happen either because I had realized that I'm an A-style kind of guy and my Bridger was getting all of my playing time. The Yellowstone has been sleeping in its case for the better part of three years since I bought it. Anyway, when the Tonerite came, I set it up on the Yellowstone and left it for 72 hours. The results where undeniable, and no judgement call was required. It really woke up the E string on this mando, balancing the instrument nicely. The E string had always been weak compared to the rest of the strings; now it's much louder and clear, and the mando overall sounds very good (like it probably would have if I'd been playing it all this time <G>). I'm probably still going to sell it because I've just gotten to the point that I want to play A models, but at least I'll be able to send it on to its next owner sounding much better and knowing that it has some really good potential if it gets played. Score one for Tonerite.

Of course, I had to try it next on the Bridger. This mando has seen a lot of play time, and to my mind needs nothing, but who knows, right? After an overnight session with Tonerite, the Bridger was unmistakeably changed too- more open, more presence, and the E string was louder too. Score another one for Toneright. Most of my mando playing happens during the week, so the Bridger will be spending weekends being caressed by the Tonerite

I think I've discovered something about how to use one of these devices: the instructions say to place it as close to the bridge as possible. When you do that, you hear a lot of racket coming from the Tonerite- motor noise I think. Curiosity lead me to experiment by moving it to different locations between the bridge and fingerboard end, and I found a place where the Tonerite goes nearly silent and the vibrations in the body of the mando increase dramatically. Ironically, this location corresponds to what we usually call the "sweet spot" on the strings. Not much surprise there, in retrospect- it's the place where we use the pick to most efficiently transfer energy to the mando, and the Tonerite does the same thing. Instead of wasting energy as noise, the Tonerite becomes quiet because it is transferring its energy efficiently to the mando body. How elegant. This reminds me a little of impedance matching of a power source to a load in electronics, but let's not go there right now. Neither of my mandos have fingerboard extensions, so I can put the Tonerite on the sweet spot; I'm thinking that this might be hard to do on a mando with a traditional extension.

This post is getting long, so I'll wind it up by saying that I'm a happy camper. I doubt that a Tonerite can transform a sow's ear into a silk purse, but it definitely brings out whatever potential a mandolin has.

Rick

[Randolph]

I agree, Hans at ToneRite has been a great person to deal with. I am old enough to remember when excellent customer service was the norm, and the folks at ToneRite are a refreshing example of those old standards.
I have used the ToneRite on my "second" mandolin for approximately 150 hours since its arrival ten days ago. In fact, now it is vibrating away for most of the hours of a day when I am not playing. Since I alternate between my two mandolins on a six month rotation, after a half a year of being encased in the closet, this particular mandolin, with a red spruce top, would sound near "dead" in comparison to the other, actively played, mandolin. This time, however, it has opened up much more quickly than usual. There has been a noticeable increase in volume, and very subjectively speaking, the overall tone seems to have evened out with a better balance between bass and treble. Some of the tonal change is probably due to gradual adjustments in playing style necessitated by the mandolins' markedly different neck profiles, different sweet spots and different pick attacks needed to maximize tone. And, some of that change in tone I will credit to the "good vibrations" emanating from the ToneRite. I say this because of the noticeable change in vibrational patterns across the top of the mando over time. For the first several days the mando top would vibrate like crazy along the outer edge with very little vibration beyond the recurve. Now, after many hours, the entire top vibrates with strong vibrations being felt passing through the thickest part of the top. Even the bridge has taken on a vibrational life of its own, while the entire back is vibrating more freely as well.
Overall, I am pleased that I may have found a solution to the problem created by my mando rotation schedule. My one complaint is the poor quality rheostat. The rheostat on my unit offers little in the way of fine tuning, and other than full on or full "off" it is a crapshoot trying to set the slider somewhere in the middle ranges. And I say "off" because the unit never turns off at the switch. This means getting down on the floor to plug/unplug it every time its used. For something costing this much, this is not cool. Its kind of like having to crawl through the trunk of a brand new car because the electronic door locks don't work. And for the record, I notified ToneRite about my concerns before posting here. And please remember:YMMV.

[jswag]

Can any of you who have a mandolin tonerite tell me if it will also fit on a Mandola? Or an Octave Mandolin? If it will fit these instruments also, it would sure be nice, and (for me) make the cost more acceptable for my current budget/finances. Thanks for any information.
Jeff

[mandozilla]

Randolph
As a fellow happy Tonerite owner I bet they'll make the improvements you suggeted...they seem like the kind of businessmen interested in the continuous improvement of their product.

Hey Jeff
The unit fits snugly between the ggdd courses and the aaee courses. I don't have anything bigger than a mando right now but I don't think it would be an easy fit...it will fit on a guitar with one foot between say the D and G with the other between the G and B if that helps.

[Randolph]

Update on the ToneRite rheostat: Hans emailed me regarding my concerns about the poor quality rheostat. He allowed that the original part was not the best, that they have moved to a higher quality rheostat with a genuine on/off switch, and that he would be happy to pay for shipping both ways and replace the rheostat free of charge. What can I say? Such business ethics speak for themselves.

[papawhisky]

That is a level of service that builds a reputation. I have looked on sites for the classical violin community and see a lot of praise for Tonerite. I am convinced, but need a little bail out or stimulus to come up with the full suggested manufacturers price.

[CharlesW]

Hey everyone. I was doing some research to see how far along the tonerite is and came across this forum in the process.

I'm actually the original "inventor" of the tonerite in concept. I've known Augi for many years and have had a business meeting with Hans as well prior to his working with Augi.

Where did the idea come from? We (Augi, my brother, and I) were watching an episode of Modern Marvels on musical instruments where it discussed the improvement in sound quality due to playing. I personally have no musical knowledge whatsoever, but Augi has extensive knowledge in the subject. The next question was obvious. Why hasn’t someone created a device to simulate playing to improve the sound quality? That's when the idea was born.

Augi at the time was finishing up his EE and started working on the concept. Although he had the capability of designing the simple circuit, he had little to no manufacturing skills to develop a prototype required for the patent application. This is where my brother Edward (mechanical engineer) came into the picture. My brother knew Augi longer than I did from them having lived at UF together for several years. So prior to the patent application, Augi and Edward started the housing design to fit on the violin along with component improvement. Other models were to follow for guitar, cello, etc. based on the similar design.

I'm a statistician by degree, so my input into the design process beyond having had the original idea was negligible. However, I suggested and was willing to do the experimental design and analysis in order to quantify the improvements in sound quality. Neither of them cared about the analysis at the time and were only concerned with just getting a product out to sell. Engineers, I am right?

So after doing all the cad work, material selection, milling, etc., Augi and Edward had plans to go into business together doing small scale manufacturing of the product. Of course, that's where the plan fell through as Augi was demanding something in the neighborhood of a 70/30 split and my brother wanted 50/50. Augi has always been very eccentric and greedy, "I left my wallet at home", so it was no surprise to me what happened. Augi of course continued his pursuit towards the patent.

Now it's where it gets interesting. According to patent law and discussions with an old high school friend who is now a top notch patent/intellectual property lawyer, Augi was by law required to include both my name and my brother's name in the patent application as having contributed to the invention and design. All contributions were prior to the patent application date. We have extensive documentation of the contributions to the concept, complete cad designs for the original, DOW chemical receipts/shipping, correspondence, etc. to prove this. From what my friend the patent lawyer has advised me, the case here is a slam dunk should we pursue legal actions against Augi in regards to the patent application.

I personally haven't talked to Augi in probably a year or better. It was always a waiting game on when he would screw you over for his personal gain. Still want to know why a device worth several dollars in materials is selling for $300? I think you can figure that out.

So anyway, I just wanted to rant about that. We have not decided to pursue legal action as of yet to claim any royalties owed. I didn't care about the money, but it would have been nice to at least have my name on the patent. My brother on the other hand, especially after all the work he contributed to the design, feels otherwise.

So that's the story of the "tonerite".

[mandozilla]

Charles this is hardly the place for this stuff. How do we know you're not just a flamer and impuning someones reputation with no proof to back it up. Sounds like it might be a case of sour grapes to me.

I don't know Augi personally, but I'll tell you what, I LOVE my Tonerite and It has brought me well over the asking price in the joy I've experienced with the enhancement of volume and tone in my mando.

CUT IT OUT!!

[CharlesW]

Flamer? It's the truth. I have known Augi for many years and would say I know him better than most. Hell, I was one of the few who understood where he was coming from when others felt otherwise. I only met Hans once over a business lunch, and by all first impressions he is a great guy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not impuning the product, it was an idea we all contributed to. I always thought it was great and had a high potential for success. I think it's safe to say that's the case.

I just wanted to vent and explain some of the background to people discussing the product. Forgive me for being upset for someone not crediting the contributions others have made to it. It isn't right.

[Rick Turner]

I'd like to point out that the concept of electro-mechanically driving an instrument top or the entire instrument is not new. I first came across the concept in 1964. A guitar maker by the name of Clyde Tinsdale was putting his instruments in a closet with a stereo speaker turned up loud to drive the instrument. About 35 years later, I wrote an article for Acoustic Guitar Magazine in the TimbreTech process that involved clamping instruments to an industrial shaker table and driving them hard for close to an hour with a frequency sweep from about 100 Hz up to 5K. A number of people have designed mechanical string plucking machines (and chicken plucking machines, too :-)). So patent, smatent; it may cover specifics of packaging, but I guarantee you, it won't protect the concept of artificially aging an instrument with vibrations.

That said, the ToneRite works, from what I can tell so far. And it's convenient. And it probably adds more than its cost in value to the tone of the instrument, and that's what really counts. That's for players to decide.

[Paul Hostetter]

impugn |imˈpyoōn|
verb [ trans. ]
dispute the truth, validity, or honesty of (a statement or motive); call into question : the father does not impugn her capacity as a good mother.
DERIVATIVES
impugnable adjective
impugnment noun
ORIGIN late Middle English (also in the sense [assault, attack physically] ): from Latin impugnare ‘assail,’ from in- ‘toward’ + pugnare ‘fight.’

Lern to spel. Your crabbing will have more impact.

[CharlesW]

Hey Rick, I'm sure there have been many ideas to achieve the same goal as you've pointed out, the only real difference I can see between the ones you mentioned and the tonerite is the packaging as you've mentioned. I'm not sure if the patent will be approved or not, but I feel as though I should have been listed jointly at the very least.

Ironically, the current form of the tonerite is actually a reduction of original idea I had as far as the device, but Augi and Edward being engineers decided on a design that would be easier to manufacture resulting in the "block" design.

Anyway, I'm just venting. I guess seeing all the success it has had and not being acknowledged for our contributions to it pisses me off.

To be continued...

[CharlesW]

I'd like to thank those of you splashing the sour grapes. You've made my decision on how to proceed.

/vent

[Paul Hostetter]

Charles, I didn't have a problem with what you wrote. I'm not sure how much of it was really appropriate for general consumption, but it seemed truthful, not bitter or slanderous. It's not like Tesla and Edison, anyway!

[cwtwang]

Originally Posted by mandozilla

True. But having bought and used a Tonerite, I think it might be pretty difficult to adapt the 'odd' shape of some of those devices to achieve the same results. HaHaHa

Oh, GAAAWWWD! Too funny!!

Yeah, the Tonerite WORKS!

[Keith Newell]

In 1970 I had an idea of "water in a can".....this was before mass produced plastic bottles.
Keith

[mandozilla]

Charles sorry you didn't get in on the Tonerite Patent...I still maintain that there must be a good reason why. All I can say is that it is STILL inappropriate to engage in personal attacks here IMHO.

Just so you don't feel completely left out...HERE'S MINE!

[pops1]

I just set an aquarium air pump on the strings above the bridge, the top, and back is vibrating nicely, using the strings to transmit the vibration. We'll see if it works.

[mandozilla]

Just make sure you don't get any fish poop on your mando...it can play hell with the finish!

But seriously, interesting idea...hope it works for you.

[Amandalyn]

Originally Posted by pops1

I just set an aquarium air pump on the strings above the bridge, the top, and back is vibrating nicely, using the strings to transmit the vibration. We'll see if it works.

You guys crack me up

[pops1]

If i had a Mix i could fill it with water and put some fish inside and use the air pump to not only vibrate the top, but give the fish some air.
This is not my good mando by the way, but it is newer so is a good test to see if i can save $290.

[Rick Turner]

Fill the mando with water and put the fish in it. Put a side port in but glaze it in plexiglas...

Mandoquarium!