need recommendations

[fredhicks]

Looks like I might pull the trigger on a new mando from Steve Ryder. Now because of my ignorance I need all the advice I can get. I actually had never measured the nut width on my Gibson F4...only about 1 1/8". I won't be able to try any solid body mando's from where I live...so I need any things to look for/look out for that people can give me. The 2 main things I think I need to look for is....
*5 string spacing for small hands. Fingers fairly short, but not pudgy.
*how many/type humbuckers? and any details associated.

I am trying to keep it simple and quiet looking. No pickguard, no binding, darkish color (I kind of like his reddish cloudy color....but even quieter for me). Probably lowish action since this is likely just to be a mando that will get played in the house NOT at mega volume. Probably playing mostly classical with plenty of attempts at other things....but not bluegrass.

Any advice? Need some "devil's advocate" advice as well....

Fred

[chasray]

If you are getting a solid body 5-string, then have the action as low as you want. The loudness will be dependent on the amp, right?
I would go with the longer scale length for a 5-stringer (14.5) b/c of that low string. If it was a 4-stringer I would go with the 13.9 scale (I have small hands).

Another personal opinion - 2 humbuckers are better than one!

I don't know if you have a choice on a slim or chunky neck ...
1-1/8" nutt should be okay for 5 strings,

Hopefully some Ryder players wil chime in.

[mandocrucian]

If you haven't been playing on electrics (guitars or e-mandos), personally I htink it's foolhardy to jump in with a fairly pricey instrument. First off, you don't realize it yet, but you don't really know what you want/need in an electric instrument. (Maybe you'll get lucky and get exactly what you will be satisfied with after playing it for 5 years. But maybe you won't.)

It's a fairly common tale of woe, that an acoustic player will ger E-MAS go out and get some pricey, quality instrument, play it for awhile, and then realize it is a completely different instrument than an acoustic mandolin, and that, they don't like it, or don't like lugging and amp and gear around, or the volume, or that their acoustic vocabulary and technique doesn't really translate that well on an electric being used in other kinds of music. So they end up selling it off.

GO CHEAP - Get a Mandobird or something you won't feel bad about if you decided to get rid of it later (or if you liked it but know have some ideas of features you do want, you're better informed when looking for an upgrade.) Personally, I would go with a mini-guitar conversion (for a 5-string). You can use it as your laboratory "test instrument". Find the scale length you like by using a capo. Also you can try both your tuning options CGDAE (standard 5-string) or the lower GDAEA or GDAEB (and octave lower than mandolin with a high 5th string). I go with the octave down tuning because it gives you a lot more versatility in playing rhythm on it, letting you sub do electric guitar functions.

I'm not going to rehash here cause Mandocrucian's Digest #13 had an article on doing conversions. ($3.50 ppd in the USA, see link below.)

[mandroid]

generally, the centerline between the courses, [pairs] and adding that distance
to the extra string for width is going to be OK.

try out the spacing on a Violin and see if you like that, they are much narrower [and radiused]

never play 4 string chords on a fiddle anyway (or at least few do)

I'd get a fan fret fingerboard if I were Ordering a 5 string custom.

Longer for the C to get it to vibrate less floppy,

but shorter for the E, so it will reach pitch with a bit less tension ...

not too extreme.. maybe a 15 or 14.5 to 13 ..

[fredhicks]

Thanks for some info...I forgot about the guitar conversion possibility. Money isn't that much of an issue although I was looking at the step up from the Mandobirds since I am not willing to mess with fixing the little things that are usually off with that price range.....although I sure thought about it. I used to play violin...spacings were fine......problem was my back couldn't put up with playing a lot. I play lots of 3-4 finger chords (violin or mando).....you can't play Bach etc without doing that. I also wouldn't have to worry about carrying amps etc....just planning on a decent small amp for under $200 and it will just sit in a spare bedroom.....I have no interest in playing in front of anybody other than my wife. Niles....is there a lot less string tension with that guitar conversion? One of my worries is once I get to early retirement in a couple of years I plan on playing a lot more.....my little finger is iffy on being able to play an hour or two a day without the knuckle going. One of my thoughts with going 5 string is that the long reach for classical chords would need a lighter touch with the lower action and single string.

[mandocrucian]

is there a lot less string tension with that guitar conversion?

Of course. Think about it. Even if you were to string it with the same gauges (on the same scale length), you are only having to press one string instead of a pair, reducing your finger load by 50%!

But, a lot of electric players will tend to use lighter strings for ease in string bending, since the amp and pickups are the source of volume, you just turn that up a notch. (The reason mandolins and other short scale/small body instruments use pairs of strings, or even triple-courses, is to get enough volume - two strings are louder than one - to make the instrument viable beyond bedroom solo playing.

However, the heavier the strings and the greater the tension, the better your tone. I used to use light gauge strings, but went with gauges (at least comparable) to acoustic mando strings. If you don't alter your attack, with light gauges, you'll be continually be going sharp since the pick will be hitting it so much harder in relation to the guage. Light strings means a lighter pick and a lighter attack. If you don't want to change your acoustic RH attack to something different, then you need to keep heavier strings that are suited to it

If you decide to try string bending (blues, C&W, rock), violin string spacing is going to be a disadvantage. You won't have enough room across the neck to push (or pull) the string without continually clunking into the adjacent string.

There's trade-offs on all aspects of set-up. Want to still bend heavier strings but get that SRV tone? (he used a real heavy set up)....... The answer is to gradually increase your hand strength. I've been bending on acoustic mando for years (usually 1/2 step and keeping the pairs in tune with each other) and generally playing it like it's an electric instrument - it just takes more strength to do it though. On electric, with single strings, I can bend up a m3 or major 3rd, sometimes a 4th+ , depending where I am up the neck.

Niles H

[fredhicks]

Thanks Niles....some of that stuff I already know just from reading over the years.....the big buggaboo for me is trying to figure out good spacing of strings without being able to try them out. Violin spacing just didn't seem wide enough to me anyway. Even with the Gibson F4 I have......I just can't see getting 5 strings on that fretboard...I would be touching adjoining strings all the time (I do a lot as it is with the Sonata's)...and like you said, no way you can bend. I will look for a narrow neck because I do have fairly small hands but not pudgy. From my violin efforts a million years ago....I have never played mandolin in the thumb crotch...always have my thumb on the neck so I can reach further. The neck on the F4 has always been comfortable to me....it's always smaller than I think when I get around to looking at it. I have also gone to the Thomastic strings in recent years just because those are easier on the hands.

[mando.player]

I'd beg to differ on whether an electric is easier on one's finger tips. I find that my electric is easier to hit clean notes on, but is harder on my finger tips. The pair of strings on an acoustic spreads the load out on your finger tip. Imagine walking barefoot across a tight rope and on a 2x4. Which is going to feel better on the bottom of your feet?

General thoughts and info on 5-strings. My Mann EM-5, which by some folks standards would be a gross misuse of my discretionary income, has a 1.25 inch nut and a scale length of 14.5 inches. The longer scale length increases the tension on what would be an otherwise floppy C string. I would say that the width and scale differences aren't more difficult than an acoustic, just different. As I stated above it's much easier to fret a clean note on a single string.

[fredhicks]

I don't think Niles said it was easier on finger tips.....just less pressure to push down, which is what I am looking for. Skin I can grow more of, but the knuckle of my little finger takes a real beating on long reach chords...which I do a lot of.

I am most certainly NOT an expert, but in my wee little brain (and I have just had an end of the day beer....ok, maybe 2)....if the space between two points is further apart, I would expect the tension to be slightly less....at least if the string is of similar size/composition. Am I wrong?

[igowing]

Depending on your tastes you can get away with very light string gauges and extremely low action on a well set up electric. I string my 14.5" scale 5 string 52-34-20w-12-9 and I do not have a perfectly accurate way of measuring it but the action is below 1mm at the 20th fret. It is much much easier to fret than any acoustic I've played. It out preforms my older 13 7/8" scale electric in most every category. I feel the extra 9/8" of scale length is necessary for the chord voicings you are trying to obtain and is not noticeably more difficult to play.

[mando.player]

Given the same string gauge and pitch, the longer scale will require more tension to keep the string at pitch.

[Ken Sager]

Since no one else has suggested it, allow me: Talk to Steve Ryder about these topics. He builds beautiful instruments and has dealt with customers before. I imagine he'll have some good recommendations you should feel comfortable considering.

Best,
Ken

[fredhicks]

Already started the process....yes, I have emailed him.....I am just insecure.....many choices......mmmm, chocolate.....mandolin...damn the choices......

[mando.player]

Fred,

I went through the exact same process when I ordered my Mann. I wasn't sure about what I wanted and turned to the Cafe and Comando, in order to refine the questions I eventually ended up asking the builder.

What model Ryder are looking at?

[fredhicks]

EM 45....looks nice, decent price. I am not planning on any binding, no pick guard etc...just like things simple and quiet...no wild colors. In fact that cloudy reddish looking one is kind of nice, but I would want it even more toned down. Since I don't know better, I would rather have an extra humbucker than not enough. I realize that if I go through with this it might not turn out to be what I like.....I have a Rigel A+ Deluxe that I never play for the same reason. Bought it sight unseen from Ken C in Stayton Oregon. I trust Ken to have checked it out before he sent it to me, it just wasn't a sound I like.....although it plays easier than my Gibson...I just need to get off my butt and sell the Rigel....which would mostly pay for this other mandolin anyway. I just go through stages where I play a bit every day for a month or two, then I don't touch it for a month....then back and forth like that. If it wasn't for my little finger I would likely just stick with the Gibson and not worry about getting anything else. Hey, there is always the Irish bagpipes...but my wife won't let me touch anything like that.

[Ken Sager]

There you go. Get what you want. Folks on a message board can't tell you what you want.

I want the EM55 with synth option.
Best,
Ken

[fredhicks]

Yeah.....being a guy, I just naturally want more switches and knobs...but that synth mando is crazy overkill for someone like me.....Niles is likely correct about even the 45 being more than someone like me should be getting. But a fool and his money are soon parted.......