f-style as american icon

[billkilpatrick]

those neighbors and friends here in italy who've seen my f-4 mandolin invariably ask:"what is it?" everyone knows the neaopolitan-style mandolin - correct recognition of the flatback runs about half and half.

if it's not already considered as such, i wonder if the f-style can assume its rightful place in the smithsonian as a genuinely american instrument?

- bill*

[Michael Gowell]

Sure. As someone wrote here within the last week or two, a good answer to the question heard by F-style mandolinists - "What IS that thing?" - is - "It's an American mandolin."

[mandozilla]

Whenever anyone asks me what my mando is, I tell them it's an American Mandolin. And they're a bit taken aback by my statement...they usually say stuff like, "I didn't know there was such a thing"..."sure is pretty and sounds nice too".

Now I don't know if that's 100% accurate, but I do believe that it was Orville Gibson, and American in America, that first patented the carved top/back plate type mandolin...and that's good enough for me. Mando experts feel free to chop me off at the knees now.

[billkilpatrick]

so be it! ... american it is!

[Michael Gowell]

Who's going to write the letter to the Smithsonian?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Sorry guys - but the Banjo has it !. The ONLY instrument to be fully developed in the USA.
Whether you like it or not,be proud of it - millions of folk around the world love the sound,mainly due to another WSM 'discovery' - Earl Scruggs. I'm totally unashamed by my 'other' affiliation.And any criticisms will be followed my MORE Banjo piccies !!
Saska

[45ACP-GDLF5]

Sorry saska, but the Appalachian Mountain Dulcimer was created here in the USA.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

I'll buy the F style mandolin as a quintessentially American version of an instrument invented on the Italian Peninsula. But it doesn't rise to the level of "icon." Let's face it, if people who are barely literate when it comes to music don't know what instrument you're playing, it's not an icon. Elvis was an icon. Guitars are iconic. Banjos are iconic. Mandolins are very much a mystery to most Americans.

It ain't called "Guitar Center" for nothing.

Daniel

[Ivan Kelsall]

That's a CRITICISM !! - more bigger & better BANJO pics.a comin' up. Joking apart,yes i agree with you re.the MOUNTAIN Dulcimer,however it's 'hammered' associate,is a development of the European 'Cymbalom'. Possibly if i'd engaged my brain,i'd have qualified my statement by saying the most 'widely known' American instrument,
Saska

[Mike Snyder]

I believe that the modern banjo has evolved from skin headed stringed instruments from Africa. Of course, those instruments are pretty far removed from the hardware store nightmare of the 5 string bluegrass abominations twanging about on this side of the pond. Very similar to tack head banjers, though. The mandolin moved closer to iconic status when Sir Paul made a video with one.

[Rod_Neep]

Originally Posted by 45ACP-GDLF5

Sorry saska, but the Appalachian Mountain Dulcimer was created here in the USA.

In defense of my English compatriot I think that I would have to point out that the Appalachian Mountain Dulcimer was developed directly from the German scheitholt.

Rod

[45ACP-GDLF5]

Originally Posted by Rod_Neep

In defense of my English compatriot I think that I would have to point out that the Appalachian Mountain Dulcimer was developed directly from the German scheitholt.

Rod

Pure speculation. The two are similar, but that's where it ends. Being a native of the appalachians and an historian and player of the dulcimer, I've never read or heard this anywhere.

[Rob Powell]

Yep, unfortunately you can't iconize the American Mandolin when a lot of people still think it's a little guitar

[Timbofood]

As to the dulcimer...
According to the late great Bruce (U. Utah) Phillips it's name came from someone hearing the instrument and they said "Play dull some more" and they did.
I miss Bruce something fierce!

[Chris Wofford]

No offense to Mr. Scruggs, I thought the banjo was really popularized by Deliverance.

[fredfrank]

Originally Posted by Chris Wofford

No offense to Mr. Scruggs, I thought the banjo was really popularized by Deliverance.

I don't know if 'popularized' would be the correct term. Perhaps 'pigeonholed' would be more appropriate.

[allenhopkins]

Instruments that America can make some claim for as "originator":

Ukulele (Hawaii's now part of the US) -- derived from Portuguese guitar-family instruments
Banjo -- derived from African prototypes (banza etc.), but brought to its present form and variations in the US -- 5-string, tenor, plectrum, cello, banjo-mandolin, banjo-uke, etc. etc.
Autoharp -- variant of European zithers, mechanical chording device patented by Chas. Zimmermann of Philadelphia in the 1880's
Carved-top guitar and mandolin -- application of violin-style arched, carved tops to mandolin and guitar family instruments, mainly initiated by Orville Gibson around 1890
Steel-string guitar -- derivative of gut-strung Spanish-developed instruments, enlarged body size, altered bracing patterns, early 20th century by Martin and others
Electric guitar -- attachment of device to electronically amplify string vibrations; Rickenbacker "frying pan" electric steel considered earliest prototype.
Resonator guitar (and other resonator instruments) -- design by James Beauchamp and the Dopyera brothers, Los Angeles, 1920's
Steel guitar, pedal and "lap" varieties.

Don't know about the Appalachian dulcimer, since there are German and Scandinavian fretted, elongated zithers that seem related, but its current configuration seems American.

Getting back to the original theme of the thread, I would hold up the F-style mandolin body as a significant icon of esthetic design, and cite its world-wide popularity. Since scroll and points are there basically as decoration rather than for acoustic enhancement, it really is a silhouette that has captured the imagination of musicians for its gracefulness and visual interest.

[billkilpatrick]

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

Instruments that America can make some claim for as "originator":

Ukulele (Hawaii's now part of the US) -- derived from Portuguese guitar-family instruments
...
Getting back to the original theme of the thread, I would hold up the F-style mandolin body as a significant icon of esthetic design, and cite its world-wide popularity. Since scroll and points are there basically as decoration rather than for acoustic enhancement, it really is a silhouette that has captured the imagination of musicians for its gracefulness and visual interest.

i agree with you on the american aesthetics of the F-style mandolin - a contribution yankees can be proud of - but not about the american origin of the 'umble uke.

can't be many who haven't heard this ... but story goes that when the first braguinha from portugal was heard in hawaii it was named a "jumping flea" - ukulele - because of the sound it made. the instrument that arrived 100-something years ago and the instrument today are virtually the same.

here's another old (personal) chestnut:

iberian men
brought their vihuelas with them
hola, aloha

- bill*

[Ivan Kelsall]

Heck - I'm taking up Trumpet after all this. I'll just wait for the post that tells me that the Trumpet was developed from the Native American 'mouth bow' !!!,
Saska

[danb]

Saska, actually the Banjo is a descendant of an African instrument called a Banjar

Pretty sure Americans can still lay claim to the drive-through window thought

[billkilpatrick]

Originally Posted by saska

Heck - I'm taking up Trumpet after all this. I'll just wait for the post that tells me that the Trumpet was developed from the Native American 'mouth bow' !!!,
Saska

take up the sousaphone ... bona-feedie, gen-u-ine amur'ican ...

[Timbofood]

Does it matter? We are all "enlightened' enough to play the Mandolin in any of it's guises. I do not see that it's point of origin is here of there, I am just happy to have one!
I do like the factotum of the Sousaphone though, A buddy of mine playe the piccolo part of the "Stars and Stripes Forever" on the mandolin..if anyone cares.

[billkilpatrick]

Originally Posted by Timbofood

Does it matter? We are all "enlightened' enough to play the Mandolin in any of it's guises. I do not see that it's point of origin is here of there, I am just happy to have one!

me too - but imagine (coming, as you do, from kalamazoo) how you would feel if ... assuming you have a time machine and there's a future worth visiting ... you were to leap forward to find that an F-style mandolin had taken hold somewhere (choice is yours - more out-of-the-way the better) and inhabitants there were claiming it as their own. equanimity (oyez!) is worth it at any any price ... but wouldn't you feel obliged to set the record straight to at least a few of the more discerning?

- bill*

[mandozilla]

Saska
The B***O, which I really love BTW, is, as I'm sure you know, of African origin...can you say Banjar?

Other than the Neopolitan (bowl back style) European mandolin, I don't know of any flattish (as opposed to the bowlback), carved top/back mandolin of European origin that pre-dates Orvilles' patent...correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am).

That's why I call mine an American Mandolin...not trying to be an 'Ugly American'.

[Bernie Daniel]

mandozilla: That's why I call mine an American Mandolin...not trying to be an 'Ugly American'.

I agree American mandolin! 100%

Flat back, carved top scrolled -- mandolin. Definately, Orville did it and he was from Michigan

And then came Llyod and the f-hole and the long neck-- quod erat demonstrandum.

And don't worry about being an "ugly" American -- that was a figment of other's imaginations. Actually, Americans are pretty cool folks by in large.

There must be some reason why no one wants to leave but most want to come to our shores. Ya think?