pre amp for fishman pickup?

[manc mando]

Hi there,
I have recently acquired a 2nd hand mandolin with a fishman pickup (I think a
PRO-M20-0MA pickup). I just wondered if people had experience of using a preamp with this type of pick up and what people would recommend??

Thanks in advance for any info..

[flatt]

I've got a Fishman M100 pickup on my mandolin, and a G-II pre-amp, which allows me to fix it to my belt and be pretty mobile. They're OK.

However, I've just invested in a pedal board (I use tuner, delay etc) and dug out my old Behringer PB100 Pre-amp/Booster ... and I actually prefer it for the Fishman mando pick-up. It's a lot cheaper too! The only trouble with Behringer is fitting the batteries. If you can power it via the mains then their products are really good.

[Michael Gowell]

If you want to try a dirty bluesy sound you can run a Fishman 100 straight into one of those little D-cell powered portable amps - the Pignose, etc.

[manc mando]

Thanks Michael,
I actually have a pignose that I have used for busking with a guitar, am after the most natural sound though so probably not teh best option but will try...

[mandroid]

Reading the specs online, Baggs PADI is made for inputs from piezo-electric signals , impedance considerations Etc,
many have bought them . couple hundred bucks.

If you are running to a mixer the preamp can be powered from it.

[Tim2723]

The first thing I would recommend would be to try it directly to the board without a preamp. A lot of pickups respond OK to the EQ and power levels available. If that doesn't do it, then go with the Baggs PADI. A very versatile and reliable bit of kit. I've found that many times having multiple levels of gain and EQ actually causes more trouble than it solves. Simpler can really be better. I've become convinced that many players assume they'll need more than they do, and end up disliking their pickup just because they've over-thought the problem. Excessive complexity can often mean excessive trouble.

[barry k]

Manc, I have been looking for the right combination for 25 years. No matter what I try or have tried, pick-up wise, the mandolin always sounds tinny , thin
and artificial. All types of pick-ups and preamps and amps, nothing ever beat a good ole microphone for sound , but some of the folks I have played music with were electrified , and hence , the mando has to be also. Sorry if of no help, just sharing some expensive knowledge.

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by barry k

Manc, I have been looking for the right combination for 25 years. No matter what I try or have tried, pick-up wise, the mandolin always sounds tinny, thin and artificial.

1) Ouch!
2) Yep!

My take on this is that while much time, thought, and money have been devoted over the years toward the technology designed for the guitar, us poor redheaded stepchildren (ie, mandolinists) have to adapt THAT gear to make it suitable for our purposes. Until someone makes a big splash playing rock mandolin and sparks a new popularity for the instrument - I humbly offer myself for this role - it seems we are stuck with this being our lot in life.

For my late lamented F-12 I had two Barcus-Berry Hot Dots implanted in the feet of the bridge, covered with a veneer, the wires running into the f-holes and out through a 1/4" tailpin endjack. This is a nice stable hookup that I highly recommend. I used whatever guitar pedals and effects I could find to give me the sound I was looking for, settling on an EQ/gain pedal from Arion (any brand would do) and a Yamaha REX50 effects unit for distortion and reverb - the first for thickening, the second for lengthening. The number of parameters on this unit allowed me to dial in the Magic Sound. (There are plenty of other effects in the unit, but this is what I used to get a solid acoustic sound.) With this setup I could plug into any PA and run dry, independent of the settings for the other instruments, and be confident that my sound would be consistent.

I now have a nice old A model with a Fishman M100. This pickup is a lot stronger than the Hot Dots, and the A has a lot more presence than the F, so I've semi-retired the REX50 for now and am using just the EQ/gain, especially since during the winter I'm playing mostly Cajun, bluegrass, and country, which don't call for an electric sound. If I do want to work some twang into the mix, I'll bring out the MandoBird, but that's a different story. I probably don't even need the EQ/gain, as my signal is good and strong without it, and the sound reproduction from the Fishman is so faithful that I don't adjust the EQ much, but I do like being able to cut the volume for tuning.

You might be able to try out some pedals at your local music shop if they're friendly enough. Mine has seven bands - 100hz - 64khz - which is plenty. And I've had it for 20 years, and shows no sign of wear. Well, some, but no sign of giving up.

Hope this helps!

[Tim2723]

Originally Posted by journeybear

I probably don't even need the EQ/gain, as my signal is good and strong without it, and the sound reproduction from the Fishman is so faithful that I don't adjust the EQ much, but I do like being able to cut the volume for tuning.

Yup. Some times you can go simple.

[mandroid]

OTOH Muting for tuning : Shatten's 'Black Box' puts a volume knob on a box that you plug in between the jack on the instrument, and the cable to the mixer ,

but a cheap stomp tuner on the floor does the muting and the tuning reference, both ..

'close enough for Folk Music' ...

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by mandroid

but a cheap stomp tuner on the floor does the muting and the tuning reference

Yep, that's probably gonna be my next gear purchase.

[foldedpath]

Originally Posted by Tim2723

The first thing I would recommend would be to try it directly to the board without a preamp. A lot of pickups respond OK to the EQ and power levels available.

It might be worth trying, but it would surprise me if it sounded anywhere near as good as using a preamp close to the instrument. The problem is impedance loading, since mixers typically have low-Z inputs. Fishman recommends a 10 MegOhm input for passive pickups like this. Impedance loading is what causes the dreaded "quack" tone in passive pickups. Something like the LR Baggs PADI would work, although even that should be on the shortest possible cable. Once the pickup is buffered through a preamp, you can run a long cable out to the mixer and not suffer any degradation in tone.

Originally Posted by barry k

Manc, I have been looking for the right combination for 25 years. No matter what I try or have tried, pick-up wise, the mandolin always sounds tinny , thin
and artificial. All types of pick-ups and preamps and amps, nothing ever beat a good ole microphone for sound , but some of the folks I have played music with were electrified , and hence , the mando has to be also. Sorry if of no help, just sharing some expensive knowledge.

Ain't it the truth. The higher-pitched mandolin seems to bring out the worst aspects of pickup tone. On a guitar, you can dial in some "warmth" in the bass that helps mask it, but that bass response isn't there on a mandolin.

I do think pickups are appropriate for two situations -- if you have to play at high stage volume levels, as with a rock band with drums and electric guitar, or if you just want the simplest possible setup; basically "plug and play." There's an undeniable convenience factor with pickups.

For our trio, I've been experimenting with a clip-on, mini condenser mic. It's a compromise to get the tone of an external mic, with some of the convenience and the gain before feedback of a pickup. The tone is very close to what I'd get with a good external mic, and I don't have to crawl right on top of a mic and stay locked in that position.

On the other hand, this approach does trade off some advantages of both the external mic and the internal pickup. You're always "on" at one fixed volume level, so you can't vary your dynamics like you can when working an external mic. And unlike an internal pickup, the phantom power requirement means it isn't easy to locally mute the signal for tuning, or vary the volume with a pedal or boost box.

What I'm doing at the moment is just keeping a compact mixer nearby as a stage mixer for for the whole band. That way, I can at least mute channels for tuning or conversation, without having to rely on a soundman running the board, since we seldom have that luxury. The type of music we're playing is mostly Celtic and other fiddle tunes without lead breaks or "solos," so it isn't a big deal that I can't vary my volume except for picking dynamics. And I'm trying to get better at that anyway.

I should mention that we don't play at high volume, and the venues aren't super-loud bars. Otherwise we might be going the pickup route for sheer volume. There are some situations where a pickup is really the only option.

[journeybear]

That reminds me of what Tim O'Brien and I think Charles Sawtelle were using the last couple of times I saw Hot Rize. They had a lavalier microphone that clipped to the edge of the soundhole plus a piezoelectric pickup (don't recall the mfrs of either), and a stereo mixer that combined the two signals to their tastes. That gave them the fidelity of the acoustic sound and the evenness of the pickup sound. It really was the ne plus ultra for live sound. This looked like a high end proposition though, which of course they could afford, but would be out of reach for us normal folks. I wouldn't be too surprised if the cost for this setup has come down some - I think the stereo mixer would be where corners could be cut. It was fun to watch the lights dance around on their apparatuses, though.

I adapted this approach when I was playing in a jug band. I plugged in via the Hot Dots arrangement I described and would also stand in front of a mike, Shure 57. It did indeed provide a good sound. This had the advantage of being able to simply move in a bit to take a lead, and the obvious disadvantage of having to stand fairly still. I'd usually keep the mike signal kind of hot so I would have some freedom of movement, but had to be careful not too move in too close for leads. That lavalier/piezo approach is the best I've heard, and I would think the technology for that should be reasonably priced these days. I do have a clip-on stereo mike from Radio Shack that I got for tape recording, and I've always been happy with its performance for that purpose, and it didn't cost much. I've thought some about incorporating it into my mandolinizing, but as I mentioned previously, the Fishman is working fine for me.

[Kerry Krishna]

As far as I know there is'nt a Piezo style pickup on the market that does'nt need a preamp.Every single company that builds them says that exact same thing. C'mon people! The signal that comes off of them is a tiny, small thing to start off with, then for every 6 inches of whatever cable you chose, there is a measureable degradation in signal loss. The 1st guy( a Californian) to try these things took the piezo film off an earthquake sensor and was able to coax some kind of sound out of it, enough at least to continue on with a few experiments anyway. Then he sold the idea to Kaman corporation (Ovation) , who then bought out Takamine who then.... anyway, Piezos were never meant for what we use it for is what I'm trying to say here. If you were to put the frequencies all on a graph, it would look like this... Tons of highs, lots of high mids,. some mid mids, vera little lows. The preamp boosts everything thats there and doing that, gives you a much fuller sound pallett to work with. So now on your amp, you can turn down the highs, turn up the mids and turn up the bass and get the thing sounding kinda like a real acoustic. Now I realize there are lots of opinions here on the site. I also imagine that there will be twenty people who read this that say " I have never had a preamp and my setup sounds just fine." If you are going for an acoustic sound and you have a Piezo with no preamp, I'd say you should go talk to the soundperson and really listen to what they have to say about what it sounds like to them. So the caviette to what I'm saying here is that if you are not looking for something approaching an acoustic sound, then it does'nt matter much does it? But the reason these were put on the market in the 1st place was to simulate some kinda acoustic sound. I used a Fishman with 3 or 4 types of preamps over the 5 years I was out touring. I was'nt ever super happy with the sound. I never used any peddals either. JUst some real plate verb was it for a mook like me. No mandolin player (or guitar player for that matter) will ever say "My piezo sounds just like my axe sounds!" I can see how the No Preamp thing could work if you are putting the signal straight into some peddals and then an amp. But if you want an electric, how's about you goin and gettin an Emando? So all sarcasm aside, I love all the talk we are able to do here on the Cafe and I brag about the quality of the people (Builders and Mooks alike) to any of the other acoustic forums I go on. Any comments anyone?...Kerry Krishna

[Tim2723]

Well, I didn't set out to start a war, just to say that establishing a baseline is usually a good thing.

I have a Dean Markley pickup on a 30 year old two point that works just fine without a pre-amp. It's permanenty installed on the inside, but when it was new it had an attached cable and 1/4" connector intended to be plugged directly into the amp. It may not be everything every musician wants, but what is? They still make these, and they get mixed reviews, like everything else in the world. They seem to be very popular among folks who play 'unconventional' instruments like harps and such. Mainstream experience is not the only experience, and most soundmen I've met don't have a clue what most musical instruments are supposed to sound like anyway, unless they're electric guitars and drums. In fact I've brought instruments onto a stage that the soundman has never even heard of in his vast professional experience. The last three soundmen that amplified my psaltery weren't even interested in hearing what it sounded like acoustically before they started 'EQing' it to sound like what they wanted.

Heck, a couple of years back we went into one of the 'best' recording studios in NJ. When the engineer saw my Ovation he asked what it was. I told him it was a mandolin. He put a mic in front of it. I told him my sound was tailored to plugging into the board. He told me he had thirty years' experience and knew what was best. I pointed out that he didn't even know what the instrument was five minutes ago.

The point of the story is about establishing a baseline. If you don't know what the instrument is supposed to sound like, how can you possibly amplify it, let alone record it, successfully?

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by Tim2723

Heck, a couple of years back we went into one of the 'best' recording studios in NJ. When the engineer saw my Ovation he asked what it was. I told him it was a mandolin. He put a mic in front of it. I told him my sound was tailored to plugging into the board. He told me he had thirty years' experience and knew what was best. I pointed out that he didn't even know what the instrument was five minutes ago.

Bang! Zoom! To the moon!!! I love that. Sounds like one of those glorious moments when 20/20 hindsight wasn't needed, you got it right the first time.

To respond to Tim2723 though, I've always believed that a preamp was necessary for a piezo, and certainly this was true for the Hot Dots set-up on the F-12. The Fishman M100 on the A seems to be providing a much stronger and accurate signal. I've still been using my EQ/gain pedal, though I keep turning it down. In fact, Friday night I had a very strange experience with this. I realized I had the gain setting flat, so the volume wouldn't cut when I turned it off to tune. It was actually running louder with the gain pedal off, with the gain from the EQ band sliders. While trying to adjust this, I discovered I had to turn the gain on the PA head to 1 or less so I could turn the gain up on the pedal high enough for the aforementioned dynamic to work. As much as I like having the EQ control, I may have to do without it, since with this current approach the slightest tweak of the PA knob could prove disastrous - either causing a loss of signal or a loud screech.

My previous history with piezos leads me to believe I'm doing something wrong, or just overlooking something. (Wouldn't be the first time.) How could the Fishman be THAT much better? Could a 1917 A have THAT much more presence than a 1966 F-12? But maybe those wizards are really clued into the true magic. I'm going to try plugging into the PA directly next time and see what happens. Stay tuned. Or better yet, go do something else and come back in a few days.

I hope we haven't scared manc mando away with all this palaver. He just joined, and asked a (supposedly) simple enough question, and now here we are with our typical in-depth analysis (or blather, depending on your viewpoint). Be not afraid! It's not always like this.

Really!

[foldedpath]

Originally Posted by journeybear

I'm going to try plugging into the PA directly next time and see what happens.

Try that, but make sure your levels are closely matched between the straight cable test, and the test with a preamp on a short cord to the mandolin. Listen for the difference in tone, not volume.

When a passive piezo pickup is "loaded down" by running it without a preamp over a long cable to a low-Z mixer input, the lower frequencies will be suppressed, and you'll hear a thin, quacky tone. Add a preamp close to the instrument, and the sound should be more full-bodied and less quacky. Quoting from the Wiki page on guitar pickups:

"Piezoelectric pickups have a very high output impedance and appear as a capacitance in series with a voltage source. They must therefore have an instrument-mounted buffer amplifier fitted if the sound is to retain its full frequency response."

BTW, it's the opposite with magnetic pickups. Load down a passive magnetic pickup with a long cable and no preamp to a low-Z mixer input, and what you'll hear is a loss of higher frequencies, with the midrange and bass predominant. This is why electric guitar players generally prefer passive pickups into low-Z inputs (like a typical guitar amp). It reduces the highs and emphasizes the midrange. On the other hand, if you do use an onboard preamp for proper impedance matching, you'll recover the "sparkly" highs in a magnetic pickup and it will sound a bit more acoustic... good for jazz, among other things. That's why I always use a preamp on a short cord to the passive magnetic preamp in my Breedlove acoustic-electric mandola. It keeps the tone from being too muddy.

This impedance matching thing has been known for years in the guitar world, and it's become less of an issue because you hardly ever see a pure passive pickup system these days. Most internal pickup systems (like the B-Band I use in my steel string guitar) will include a preamp and battery. There's no room for a battery-powered preamp on an acoustic mandolin, so passive systems are the norm, and it's important to understand this impedance matching thing. It's not rocket science, and I don't think it's too hard for the OP or anyone else to understand. Just use any decent preamp with a high-Z input (ideally 10 MegOhms) on a short cord, and then you have a nice clean, buffered signal to run out to the mixer.

Of course we won't all like the same sounds, and if you prefer the sound of an unbuffered passive piezo on a long cord, then go for it! Just understand the difference, and run comparison tests so you can hear it.

[journeybear]

Not exactly sure what quacky means, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck ... duck! Why a duck?



There is one obvious thing I could change, and that's the cords. Right now I'm using a 20' into the preamp and 6' from preamp to PA head. I could easily swap that around and see, I mean, hear what difference that makes. It actually sounds pretty good as is, and don't feel like messing around with it much, but I'm always in favor of having everything optimal. As it is now, if I bear down on the strings a little harder than is really necessary for a lead I get a bit of distortion - not enough to hurt, just enough to rock. More bark than a quack, thankfully.

[foldedpath]

The theory says you'd be better off switching cords (short cord from mandolin to preamp, longer one to the mixer), but try it both ways and see what you hear.

Clipping is a "gain staging" problem, which can happen if you're using several circuits ganged together before hitting the mixer, or the mixer itself is being run too hot on that channel. It can also happen if you use a preamp that isn't designed for acoustic instruments, because some piezos can have a fairly hot output. Quoting again from that Wiki page:

"The piezo pickup gives a very wide frequency range output compared to the magnetic types and can give large amplitude signals from the strings. For this reason, it is usually necessary to run the buffer amplifier from relatively high voltage rails (about ±9 V) to avoid distortion due to clipping."

That shouldn't happen with a preamp designed for acoustic instruments like the Baggs PADI or anything similar, but it could happen with floor pedals or other gadgets designed for electric guitar that aren't expecting the hot signal.

Clipping can also happen downstream from the preamp, if you're using effect pedals. Make sure the output gain from the preamp is high enough so the signal isn't noisy, but not so hot that it's clipping the next input on a floor pedal or mixer input. Gain staging can be tricky, but the good news is you only have to figure out the right settings once, and then use those settings every time.

[Tim2723]

At this point I think it's only fair to mention that the old piezo I reffered to earlier was designed with a rather short cord. The intention was to not be far from the amp. If you're talking about 20' runs, all bets are off with that set up.

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by Tim2723

If you're talking about 20' runs, all bets are off with that set up.

The 20' cord is handy for times when I want to go out into the crowd and hear how the band sounds. Or if I want to interact with a customer. And sometimes we play at clubs where I'll be kind of far from the PA head so I can accommodate that situation too. I've never really noticed a big difference in sound when swapping the cords around, but I may not have been listening too closely, and with the ambient noise in the places I play I probably wouldn't have noticed anything other than a volume drop anyway.

[Tim2723]

Oh, don't misunderstand, I was talking about my old Markley pickup with a 20 foot cord on it. It probably would have all the problems you mentioned and then need a preamp if that were the case.

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by Tim2723

Oh, don't misunderstand, I was talking about my old Markley pickup with a 20 foot cord on it. It probably would have all the problems you mentioned and then need a preamp if that were the case.

No worries, no misunderstandings. I've been thinking out loud, giving all the info I can think of in an attempt AT understanding. I haven't thought a whole lot about this till now - I've been using whatever resources I had on hand and have gotten the stuff to work just fine - but I'm always open to improvement and optimization. I'll have to delve into the technical aspects foldedpath mentioned when I can. It's hard to do it without the gear all set up, which is only at gigs, when I don't want to bother anyone, especially bandmates.

I wish I could remember what apparati I used until I heard about the Hot-Dots-in-the-bridge's-feet approach, DeMarzio comes to mind, also some stick-on pickup that kept coming off, and a pickup on stiff metal rods that were supposed to hold it over a soundhole, and other really lame cacapoopoo that marred me, scarred me, and made me grumble endlessly about struggling to adapt technology designed for guitars. The Fishman is such an improvement over even the Hot Dots - it's working for me, anyway.

Now I have to come up with a more stable arrangement for the jack - the little plastic loop holder doesn't hold it tightly enough (I wrapped tape around the jack to increase its diameter), I worry about it clunking against the body, and it clearly isn't going to last forever. I want to run the wire from the bridge through the soundhole then out through a hole drilled where the strap button is. I'll probably need a few more inches of wire. My luthier - er, repairman - suggested drilling a hole in the top. I about fell over! He's the only guy in town and he's retiring next month, so I've got to decide soon. I'm fond of non-invasive procedures regarding permanent alterations to fine instruments, and that doesn't qualify. Drill a hole in the top ... yeah, right here in the seam ... sproing!!! Oops, sorry ...

But this is an issue for another forum ...

[manc mando]

Can I just thank people for all the replies...
I understand that getting the best possible sound can be quite a technical issue although not understanding the theory doesn't mean that you can't get a good sound, but some useful information here...

Haven't decided what to do but once I do will report back...

[journeybear]

Originally Posted by manc mando

Can I just thank people for all the replies...
I understand that getting the best possible sound can be quite a technical issue although not understanding the theory doesn't mean that you can't get a good sound, but some useful information here...

Haven't decided what to do but once I do will report back...

Good to hear from you - glad we haven't scared you off with all our yakking! We do get rather talkative sometimes. That's how we work through issues, and hopefully arrive at solutions.

Good luck with your setup, and let us know.