Schaller tuning machines

I keep hearing comments about Schaller machines not being as good as the used to be. I have no experience with older Schallers, but have been using all Grover Deluxe machines, and have really been loving them. Very consistent high quality.

I recently ordered a bunch of stuff from LMII, and because they are absolute aces to deal with, I decided that I'd like to also buy my machines from them. One stop shopping. Since they don't handle Grover Deluxe mandolin machines, I decided to order three sets of Schallers. Thought I'd give them a shot.

As soon as I unpacked the order, I was disappointed with everything from mechanics to aesthetics. Side by side with a set of Grovers, I thought the fit and finish of the Schallers left a lot to be desired. The gears were rough and inconsistent. No two gears turned the same. Some were tight, and turned erratically; some were loose and floppy, with visible slop. Not at all favorably impressed. I handed my wife one of each, and asked her to give me her unbiased opinion. After looking them over, and fooling with them for a few minutes, her comment was, "There's no comparison, these are way better." handing me the Grovers. I sent them back, today, and am ordering Grovers, elsewhere.

Does anyone else feel this way, and feel as positively about LMII? If so, perhaps if some others would request that they begin carrying Grover Deluxes, they might be able to make it so.

They adready carry the Grover Economy style tuners, and the guy I talked to didn't know why they didn't carry the Deluxe machines.

Gene

[Larry Simonson]

I just mounted a set of Grovers on my new home-built and they are pretty nice. There are however two things that are not positive. First the bushings run about 0.324" and finding a pilot reamer for that diameter was not successful so I used a reamer I got cheaply from Grizzly. Its funny that Stew-mac sells the tuners but the closest their pilot drill is 0.328.

The second is that the knobs are held on with screws and so far I've had to tighten them several times. I know that one or more of the screws will be lost in some campground or hay field unless I get some loctite on them soon. Otherwise nice tuners.

[John Flynn]

I've heard the negatives about Schaller machines, but my experience with them has been good. I've had them on two mandolins, and I have also had Grover Deluxe machines on two mandolins. I'm fine with with either/both and both are way better than cheapo tuners, which to my mind is the point of using them.

[barry k]

Yes, LMI is a top notch supplier, they will allow you to return without a problem. I had also switched from Schaller to Grover or Go-toh or those new stewmac brand. Schaller will work good IF, when new, you put lapping compound on the gears, and turn the shafts with a power drill, then clean all the goop out. They work like a charm then, just a pain to go through all that. You can always use Waverleys ??? Too rich for my blood.

Larry - Yeah, bushing size is kinda weird, but I found that a quick turn around each hole with a sharp pocket knife does the job beautifully. They're so close after drilling with an 8 mm. brad point, that I've never had a problem with them. No reamer necessary. Takes me about five-minutes to do all eight holes.

Personally, I view the button screws as a positive thing. Easy to change out buttons, if I want a different look. I just wipe some blue Loctite onto the threads, with a Q-tip, and have never had a problem with either having them come out on their own, or getting them out when I want to. Different strokes, I guess.

John - Yeah, I could probably live with the Schallers - if I had to - but the positive differences - no matter how small they might be - are there. The smooth turning of the Grovers, and the 18-to-1 gear ratio, and the bit better fit and finish do it for me. Definitely way better than the cheapo tuners - and IMO - way better than the Stew Mac "Elites", or whatever they call them now. I tried one set of those, and was not happy. For the extra cost, I was expecting a whole lot more. I liked them way less than the Schallers.

Gene

[peter.coombe]

I have been using Schallers for 15 years. They did go through a rough patch a while ago where quality was inconsistent and I was about to give up on them, but the last few batches have been fine. Maybe your's are from that bad batch. I get them locally so the supply comes direct from Germany, not through the USA dealers. There are advantages in buying local. I have also used one set of Waverlies which were sublime. I replace those horrible Schaller plastic knobs with wooden knobs and they do work better and feel MUCH better with the wooden knobs. Don't expect them to work brilliantly right out of the box. After installing on the mandolin they might need a bit of fiddling and a fair bit of turning. Even then they probably will not be all that smooth. However, after about a year of use they will turn very smooth and trouble free. I have never had a mandolin come back with tuner problems, and none have worn out as far as I know. A few customers have replaced them with Waverlies, and if you have the cash that is probably a good move. One problem they do have is some backlash (looseness when engaging the gears) and there is nothing you can do about it. If that bothers you then get a set of Waverlies, but there is a price to pay. So, with Schallers you do need to tune up when tuning wheras with the Waverlies they are so smooth and tight you can tune down. Overall certainly not perfect, but at the moment I can't see any pressing need to change since the problems are relatively minor. Waverlies are too rich for me, but if a customer wants a set that is fine so long as they pay the extra. All this has been with the Schaller gold A types, which have a black worm and to me seem to work a little better than the nickel and F types which don't have the black worm.

[Jim Hilburn]

So there's $40 tuners, $60 tuners, $80 tuners, then $600 tuners. Weird.
There are issues with all of the under $600 units. I have both Schaller and Grover on hand and have installed a couple of sets of Gotohs.
I know Schallers are often tight feeling but I don't think I've ever seen any slop in a new set. I've found that oiling them and running them with the drill loosens them up adequately without using any gritty stuff.
I've heard it said that Waverlys need to be installed with extreme precision, but if you plan to use the deep bushings that come with most Schaller F sets I think they require the most precise installation of anything out there. I've nearly always used the vintage bushings but I decided to try doing the supplied bushings on my last F thinking that if they were installed perfectly the tuners would work very well because of the support the bushing would supply. But even using the Stew-Mac drill guide along with an indexing pin, then piloted counterbores, I still had problems with getting them perfectly set so they didn't bind up. And don't even think about making a tapered headstock with plans to use those bushings.
Maybe someone will make a $200 set someday that solves all these problems.

[HoGo]

I used 15 or so sets of nickel plated Schallers so far and they all worked fine. Certainly adequately to the price. Some were tighter, but that loosens after while, or you can use electric screwdriver to turn them a little to loosen up.
BUT, I used just one set of Waverlies and wasn't all that impressed. While workmanship was good and they turned smoothly I had to tighten some of the knob screws after each 15 minutes of playing. I would expect that $500 set of machines would have the screws secured with Loctite. Also the knobs seem to be quite a loose fit to the shafts when the screw became loose just a tiny bit (less than half turn), the knobs were moving a lot. Also that odd size of bushing holes is weird. They didn't come with a wrench for those tightening rings. What should one do when it becomes loose during a gig?
I think when compared to other tuners thay are worth perhaps $100 extra for the workmanship, not $400.

[Fretbear]

To me the Deluxe Grovers are a whole lot of tuner for the money, almost like a premium product at a bargain price. For a little over $50, you get a high-quality (the only 18/1 ratio tuner available) product that you could even afford to replace with new ones every few years if it was necessary, which it isn't.

[pops1]

If the screws come loose on your Grovers, a little fingernail polish on the threads will do just as well as loctite

[mandroid]

Schallers on several instruments , Lebeda works fine , may have been a good day at the drillpress.

tapered headstock on others has the bushing
lined up square to the back side , but not the front..

Oh well , ... I try to think about the music instead..

[peter.coombe]

Jim, I don't like those deep Schaller bushings either. Much more difficult to get the tuners working properly. The Schallers I get locally all (F types as well) have the shorter 100mm bushings and they seem to work much better. If I order from Stew Mac they are always the longer bushings and I hate them. Maybe that is why there are so many problems with Schallers in the USA?

[amowry]

Yes, I never liked the long bushings either, which was one if the reasons I switched to vintage bushings on all my tuners.

If Schallers are too tight you can bend the little steel springs with a screwdriver to loosen them up a little. My preference is for them to be fairly loose. They do have some backlash no matter what. My main complaint is that the plating always seems to come off of the gears on the gold ones, making them feel gritty. Lately I've been running them with jewellers rouge and them disassembling them and cleaning them. It takes the plating off the worm gear, but that looks fine to me, kind of like the Waverly look. With all that work involved with Schallers I'd rather use the Elites, though. The ones I've gotten lately have been pretty nice.

[Jim Hilburn]

It seems reasonable to think if you can get the long bushings perfectly installed they should work very nicely because it would provide such good support against the string tension, but achieving that perfection isn't easy.
The short Schaller bushings are just too big. Grover and Gotohs supplied bushings are much nicer in that regard.
And I love the look of the vintage bushings, but really, they're mostly for show. They don't offer much support so your holes need to be right on to keep them from binding, but that's a given with any tuner installation.

[labraid]

I likes dem Schallers. I think they're the most attractively engraved of all the tuners, and the tightness, their main fault, does go away with time.
I've had good success with no bushings at all, and of course holes drilled with the exact bit. Line the holes with graphite, and you have as close to instant Waverly as I've felt. Folks say they stay in tune like nothing they've had... It's the old fashioned way anyway, freeballin it.

[bryce]

I have 3 sets of the Elites (now Golden Age or something). Right out of the box they are way too tight. Can't imagine once they're in the bushings. I did run with a drill. It didn't seem to help much.
Andrew, is the jewelers rouge in a paste form or stick? I think I have some valve lapping compound. Thought that might be a little too harsh. I've had these a good while so I don't know about sending them back.
Thanks

[amowry]

Bryce, they've since retooled so the Elites are looser. You might be able to return yours to Stew-Mac for a new set. I had one of the old ones freeze up completely.

[Jim Hilburn]

I told this story before but this might be a good place to repeat it.
I had bought a set of Gotohs several years ago and I thought they were terrible compared to Schallers. But then I had a buyer specify Gotoh's on 2 different mandolins. I got them from LMI for about $85 which seems steep, but you can get either black (not ebony) or ivoroid buttons.
They were quite a bit different from the earlier set. They had a very consistant tightness to the gearing and felt great once installed. I never cared for their "engraving", but the plates look very nice and traditional. They also have very attractive domed bushings.
One big difference between Gotoh and the others is the cog supports are riveted on while Grover and Schaller (and I presume Elites) are stamped. I've seen or heard of 2 different examples of those rivets failing, but I assume they're lifetime guaranteed. But they might be worth your consideration.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

If the sub $100 machines aren't quite what you are after and the $600 Waverly are too much for your budget, contact Nicolo Alessi. For a price that is right in the middle (Approximately $325), you'll suddenly be immersed in the world of custom tuner porn and never go back. He can make you anything you can imagine, to your specs. Check out the last issue of Mandolin Magazine or search the old threads for more detailed descriptions.

If anyone is passing through Asheville, feel free to drop by the downtown shop, checkout the set on my personal mandolin, and we'll laugh a bit while we pick some tunes and talk about the less important things in life...

j.
www.condino.com

[peter.coombe]

Nicolo Alessi sent me some pictures of his work a few years ago and I drooled over them for quite a while. Absolutely beautiful, but I never got a set from him so don't know how nicely they work, but would be surprised if they were not very nice.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

I started my day far too early this morning playing and enjoying Niccolo's machines on my mandolin and then spent the rest of the day working over at Dream Guitars (dreamguitars.com) where I was lucky enough to sample about a half dozen of his guitar machines. Every one of them was one of those rare places where beauty, form, and function meld into a timeless piece. My personal favorites are the ones where the tuner baseplates have the engraved leaf pattern; beautiful, modern, and yet timelessly art deco.

j.
www.condino.com