A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

[John McGann]

Bob, thanks for asking! This topic is a source of confusion for most of us as we learn it.

One thing that can help you see what's up is that is you are comfortable with diatonic movement through the chords, you can look for the pitches that 'make it minor' change from their diatonic (major scale) counterpart.

Major scale= 1234567. In C: CDEFGAB
chords-
CEGB (I maj7)
DFAC (ii m7)
EGBD (iiim7)
FACE (IVmaj7)
GBDF (V7)
ACEG (vim7)
BDFA (viim7b5)

Now, the "next" minor scale, which has only one different note (E to Eb) is melodic minor. Same structure, but change the chord qualities to suit the Eb:

CEbGB (im maj7)
DFAC (ii m7)
EbGBD (biiimaj7 #5)
FACEb (IV7)
GBDF (V7)
ACEbG (vim7b5)
BDFA (viim7b5)

If you do the same to harmonic minor (Eb and Ab):

CEbGB (im maj7)
DFAbC (ii m7b5)
EbGBD (biiimaj7 #5)
FAbCEb (ivm7)
GBDF (V7)
AbCEbG (bVImaj7)
BDFAb (vii dim7)

Look at the V7- go up another 3rd and viola, G7b9. Goes with the ol' iim7b5.

"Minor key" is really only defining the b3; you have to look at the actual chord sequences and melodic note choices to determine what's happening at any given point. You could have harm minor on the iim7b5 V7b9 but resolve to a natural 6 sound on the Im chord (melodic minor or dorian).

It's a case by case basis, and as always, going to the source (i.e. recordings and/or transcriptions of great players) will yield the many possibilities.

As long as you can HEAR the difference between a natural or flatted 3rd, 6th, or 7th, you are in good shape. Not every melodic note choice has to adhere to every chord change 100% of the time- there are zillions of examples of great players playing 'wrong' notes on chords that sound great!

[Shelby Eicher]

Well it looks like all of you brainy guys are at mandolin cafe. Spot on theory. Another way to approach playing a minor b5 is to avoid playing the 5th altogether. So for a Emb5 I'll will somethings use 7 5 7 which vioces down to an A7 - 6 5 7 or Aaug - 6 5 8 to possibly a Dm6 - 4 3 5(which is also a Bmb5) or you can go to a Dm69 - 4 3 7 which is cool. By avoiding any form of the 5th although somewhat generic it is very useable.
Shelby

[ZenJam]

Hey John:
Your last post was very helpful. I've also found playing the arpeggios of each chord helps me hear the relationships better. Thank you for clearing up some of my confusion.

Bob Althouse

[John McGann]

You are welcome, Bob. I find the arpeggios crucial to "hear off of", in other words, the chord tones are the melodic 2x4s that hold the whole thing up.

Mixed metaphors for happy hour, anyone?

The "other" notes are best heard in context of the chord, either by having a Band In the Box type event or a recording of you playing the chord- and if by yourself, sure, in context of the arpeggio will always work.

[Larry S Sherman]

Originally Posted by pglasse

Your comment reminded me of an amazing video where the late Ted Greene gives a demo/seminar and does mind-blowing stuff with Autumn Leaves. Clips are available on YouTube and Google Video. If you've got time catch the whole thing at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...e+guitar&hl=en

This is an amazingly interesting thread..thanks to all. Also thanks for the Ted Greene video link, which was fascinating to me!

Larry

[groveland]

Originally Posted by bobby bill

So I will often take a half-diminished chord and go through the inversions (according to the top note) to try to pound it into my memory. This is what I do for an f sharp half-diminished:

2232 - root on top

5475 - third on top

9798 - diminished fifth on top

11 10 12 12 - minor seventh on top

Whew! I hope I got that right.

The best way I've found to get the next inversion of any chord is to do the following:

Play the notes of strings 1 and 2 on strings 3 and 4, 2 frets higher.
Then play the note found on string 3 on string 2, 5 frets higher.
Then play the note found on string 4 on string 1, 3 frets higher.

That works for every chord in 5ths tuning. Bobby Bill - Is that what you do? (That gives you the inversions you show.)

[John McGann]

Originally Posted by groveland

The best way I've found to get the next inversion of any chord is to do the following:

Play the notes of strings 1 and 2 on strings 3 and 4, 2 frets higher.
Then play the note found on string 3 on string 2, 5 frets higher.
Then play the note found on string 4 on string 1, 3 frets higher.

That works for every chord in 5ths tuning. Bobby Bill - Is that what you do? (That gives you the inversions you show.)

Cool! Another possible way to think of it is to treat each string like an individual instrument- I say horn as they can only play one note at a time, like a string (unless you split them- let's don't go there just now!). For the sake of argument:

G= tenor sax
D= alto sax
A= flute
E=piccolo

So let's say you have Am7b5 on 4 strings, full voicing AEbCG (2133).
The chord tones in order are ACEbG (we can't PLAY them as a chord in that order due to the tuning, so we juggle the order. That's a chord 'voicing').

Now, what I do is remind each player that I am paying them, and then ask them to each go up to the next chord tone- so

tenor moves from A to C
alto moves from Eb to G
flute moves from C to Eb
piccolo moves from G to A

viola- the next inversion, CGEbA (and see, it looks like a Cm6 chord in root position!)

As long as you know the notes of the chord you are trying to invert, you can use this idea. However, even if you don't know (or care, shame shame) you can use Groveland's idea of moving the top string voices down an octave etc.

Two different roads that lead to the same place.

PS- GREAT to see Ted Greene on this thread-what a wonderful harmonic thinker on guitar! Some of the most unusual chord voicings I've ever transcribed; very little "stock" chord voicings in his playing, great voice leading and counterpoint.

[groveland]

Originally Posted by John McGann

Now, what I do is remind each player that I am paying them, and then ask them to each go up to the next chord tone- so ... As long as you know the notes of the chord you are trying to invert, you can use this idea.

Yep, I heard that! There are some fantastic mechanical expediencies we need to know, but it's about the music.

[bobby bill]

Groveland - since you asked, this is how my thinking went. I had a hard time remembering four different shapes for a half-diminished chord. But fully diminished chords are easy - same shape in every inversion. So if I wanted to play, say, an f-sharp half diminished chord with the third on top, I would first think of the fully diminished f-sharp chord with the third on top (5465), then figure out which string was playing the diminished seventh (the a string) and raise it a half step to the minor seventh (5475).

Seems a little convoluted and I don't recommend this line of thinking, but it worked for me. As Mr. McGann says, all roads lead to the same place. At some point, all the half-diminished chord shapes will be more reflexive and I can discard this two-step process.

[Brad Weiss]

Hmmm- my way of thinking was: play a minor7 chord, find the fifth, and flat it. That gives me four basic shapes:

1 on bottom
Bm7= 4455 Bm75 = 4355 (Works for Bb, B, C, C#)

3rd on bottom
Am7= 5575 Am7b5 = 5565 (works for G, Ab, A, Bb)

5th on bottom
Em7= 4253 Em7b5= 3253 (works for E, F, F#)

7th on bottom
Dm7 = 5355 Dm7b5= 5354 (works for C, Db, Eb, E)

now their just shapes like any other to me- no thinking, if I can help it!

[pglasse]

Pete Martin pointed out that many bebop and hardbop musicians approached II V I progressions in minor keys as follows:

Originally Posted by Pete Martin

Locrian #2 (the VI mode of Melodic Minor) on the II
Diminished Whole Tone or altered (VII mode of Melodic Minor) on the V
Melodic Minor on the I

This is three different Melodic Minor scales on the minor II V I. ...

Totally on the money here Pete! To lay that out in the key of C minor would mean:

Dm7b5 (II) play F melodic minor
G7alt (V7) play Ab melodic minor
Cm (I) play C melodic minor

Since you're playing the same type of scale over all three chords, one device jazz soloists use is repeat a pattern that plays upon the repeat of this scale. For instance, for the II V I listed above first play a melodic fragment based on the F melodic minor scale; move the same melodic fragment up a minor third to accommodate the G7alt (Ab melodic minor); finally move the fragment up another major third to work over the C minor. So, while in each case you're repeating notes of a melodic minor scale, their functions relative to each chord at hand are completely different. It's a cool sound and perhaps a way for folks to start using some of this stuff.

Moving along...as John McGann pointed out, using the F melodic minor over the Dm7b5 (in the above example) has some specific mojo in that the E natural in that scale is also the major third to C minor -- the key we're eventually aiming for. While that is the case, it's also my understanding that many jazz players regard the E natural (i.e. the natural 2nd of the Dm7b5 chord) as more consonant with the Dm7b5 itself than the Eb note you'd get by playing C harmonic minor over that chord. In any case, I think the E natural, in that context, is a cool sound.

At the risk of repeating myself, the world is not exactly overrun with mandolinists who fluidly improvise using these concepts. (I'm certainly still struggling with them.) So if you really get a handle on this stuff you'll probably be charting new territory for our favorite instrument.

All the best,

Paul Glasse
Austin, Texas

[Pete Martin]

Originally Posted by pglasse

To lay that out in the key of C minor would mean:

Dm7b5 (II) play F melodic minor
G7alt (V7) play Ab melodic minor
Cm (I) play C melodic minor

Since you're playing the same type of scale over all three chords, one device jazz soloists use is repeat a pattern that plays upon the repeat of this scale. For instance, for the II V I listed above first play a melodic fragment based on the F melodic minor scale; move the same melodic fragment up a minor third to accommodate the G7alt (Ab melodic minor); finally move the fragment up another major third to work over the C minor. So, while in each case you're repeating notes of a melodic minor scale, their functions relative to each chord at hand are completely different. It's a cool sound and perhaps a way for folks to start using some of this stuff.

I hear this transposition of one phrase happen a ton in the stuff I listen to and transcribe.

Chapter 3 of "The Melodic Minor Handbook" by Bobby Stern has nearly 25 pages of phrases written out in all keys covering just this topic. While not aimed at mandolin players (is anything but Teds book out there for Jazz Mandolinists??), I recommend it. That and as John says, keep transcribing and learning solos.

[bobby bill]

Man, what I would give to be "stuggling" like Paul Glasse. Thanks to all the contributions from folks way smarter than me. I'm going to be printing out this thread and giving it regular study.

[Doug Hoople]

Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen

Another full voicing I like is B half-dim played 4751.

You actually LIKE this voicing, Bruce!?!

It's the climax chord in Bach's achingly beautiful Largo in F (from the Sonatas and Partitas), and it's the one chord that keeps me from playing that whole piece in front of other human beings! It's so in-your-face, and such a total invitation to botch the landing.

It's a beautiful voicing, but it's also an awkward, murderous stretch!

I'll have to try it up the fingerboard to see if I can manage it better.

[Bruce Clausen]

Thanks for the tip, Doug, I'll check it out. Personally I always think of the Mendelssohn Wedding March when I play 4751. (You'd be in F, and the next chord is 1020.) The stretch I think depends alot on thumb position.

Bruce

[Doug Hoople]

Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen

The stretch I think depends alot on thumb position.
Bruce

Exactly.

[clem]

TO ALL CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS THREAD:

THANK YOU FOR THE BEST THREAD IN CAFE HISTORY, IMHO.

Special thanks to Paul for hipping me to this and being such an inspiring teacher.

[JeffD]

Ahhhhh. So much, you would think there were 88 strings instead of 8 on the instrument.

[John McGann]

Originally Posted by JeffD

Ahhhhh. So much, you would think there were 88 strings instead of 8 on the instrument.

My left hand likes that idea (no fingerboard needed!) but my right hand is heading for the hills

[Doug Hoople]

Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen

Thanks for the tip, Doug, I'll check it out. Personally I always think of the Mendelssohn Wedding March when I play 4751. (You'd be in F, and the next chord is 1020.) The stretch I think depends alot on thumb position.

Bruce

Actually, my mistake... I was thinking of the fully-diminished 4651. Yours is still worse, by one fret!

It was great to see you at our choro jam last night, Bruce, while you were visiting down here in the Bay Area! Nice to add all those tasty fills and twin lines. What a treat!

And a picture is worth a thousand words. With you right there, you were able to show me 'the stretch' that you're talking about.

You make the 4751 look downright easy with your 'forbidden' guitar positioning (thumbtip pressed into the back of the neck centered behind the hand)! I'm trying the more scrunched-up 'proper' mandolin version. When you said the usual mandolin hand position tended to make the hand smaller, I could see immediately what you were talking about! I couldn't work your position myself (you're a longtime guitar veteran), but I could definitely see it working.

We just have to remember what Mike Marshall tells us in DVD 2, which is that, when playing chords, 'proper' position is out the window, and that we should do whatever it takes.

[Doug Hoople]

Originally Posted by Will Patton

diminished x.5 (half diminished)

Hey Will, just caught this on re-reading! Love it. Wish it would catch on.

Like for example:

Bbdimx.5

or

F#dimx.5

Hmmm... I'm testing it in my head. Probably not. Too many characters, for one thing. Compared to the circle with the slash through it, though, it DOES distinguish better from the fully-diminished. And compared to m7b5, it doesn't ask you to do interval math as if it were an extended color chord, as opposed to one of the three primary scale chords (major, minor, half-dim).

On the other hand, though, it's the 7th that's half-diminished, but it's the 5 in the .5 that says the diminishment is by half. But then isn't the 5th supposed to be fully-diminished (what? as opposed to a half-diminished 5th!??! But wait, there's no such thing! Exactly! Except in microtonal cultures, there could be, couldn't there? But then it probably wouldn't be called a 5th anymore, would it? Is there anything left in that 5th over there? Oh good, it's half-full! Or is that half-diminshed? Phew, I'm exhausted! No really, flat-out fully-diminished! I could use some!).

Sorry, just typing out loud here, and found myself entertained. Hope you all don't mind.

So maybe this way of putting it creates as much confusion as it could potentially prevent.

I still like it. x.5-diminished, indeed!

[Ted Eschliman]

ø is always a fun character to find on the keyboard.
The cheatsheet HTML code is ø for any interested. Number code is & #248; remove the space after the ampersand.

Probably less gymnastics to type m7b5...

[John McGann]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoople

On the other hand, though, it's the 7th that's half-diminished, but it's the 5 in the .5 that says the diminishment is by half. But then isn't the 5th supposed to be fully-diminished ?

The 5th can only be lowered by a 1/2 step to a b5, but the 7th can be lowered to a b7, and lowered again to a bb7 (as we know, same as 6th).

So a 5th is fully diminished by lowering one fret
a (major) 7th is lowered by two frets to get a diminished 7th; lowering the major 7th by a fret gives you a b7.

SO... dim triad 1 b3 b5
half dim 7th (m7b5)- 1 b3 b5 b7 (see, minor 7 means b7, dim means the 5th is lowered)
dim 7- 1 b3 b5 bb7

You probably knew that but I figured I'd lay it out for anyone who might not.

[Doug Hoople]

Originally Posted by John McGann

You probably knew that but I figured I'd lay it out for anyone who might not.

Yes! THANKS, John!

Sorry, should have dropped in the smiley!

This started as a relatively advanced thread, and stayed miraculously sane and on the mark all the way through. So I thought the audience that stayed this far might have some fun with some of these.

My apologies to anyone who is scratching their heads. It's not your fault. It's mine!

[JeffD]

I am thinking this whole thread belongs in the Theory, Technique & etc. section. I know its about jazz, but if I ever have to refer to this thread again, I ain't never gonna think of looking here!


I love this stuff, but I have gaping holes in my background that affect my ability to absorb it all. I sometimes have to resort to various on line musical dictionaries, though what I need is a taxonomy of chords and intervals - one that I can listen to.

"This is a minor diminished and a half a fifth, this is your run of the mill endoplasmic reticulum, and here are your para-di-chloro-methyl- hot and cold running door knobs."