Abominations

Howard33 · 03-05-2009, 07:59 PM

I ran across one of these at a local guitar store with a rather extensive and impressive display of stringed instruments. They ran the gamut from the typical electic and acoustic guitars to sitars, a few mandolins electric, taterbug, A and F style and even some banjos.

At first I thought it was just a strange banjo on the wall then I picked it up gave it a good once over and read the tag. Low and behold... a banjoline. At first I thought it was gimmick, like the old Fiji Mermaid... a cobbled together conversation piece. But nope, after alittle research on the Nets, I find out that someone many moons ago looked at a poor mandolin and said to themselves "Hey, how can I make this 1. Harder to keep in tune? 2. Even more likely to get me ridiculed?"

*Please understand this is all in jest. It really wasn't all that bad and rather neat, considering I had never seen one before. I was even able to wash my hands after so I didn't get any of it's awkwardness on my mando at home.*

mrmando · 03-05-2009, 08:06 PM

It's also possible that someone looked at a b@nj0 and said, "What can I do to help this poor instrument gain at least a modicum of respectability?"

Howard33 · 03-05-2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmando

It's also possible that someone looked at a b@nj0 and said, "What can I do to help this poor instrument gain at least a modicum of respectability?"

No, really

Oh wait, your serious....

JEStanek · 03-05-2009, 08:32 PM

Hey, those are fun to play! If you think that's odd look at this. Both the linked instrument and the banjoline are on my wish list....

Jamie

mandozilla · 03-05-2009, 08:50 PM

Way too b**jo-ish for me! HaHaHa

But seriously, I've often considered buying a b**jo-guitar...don't know why...I just think they look kinda Bluesycool and funky.

I'd like to find a fiddle with a radius mandolin neck (a fidolin?) or a mandolin with a fiddle neck (a mandiddle?)...now that would be cool!

Is it OK to say mandiddle? I hope so.

:
mandosmiley:

Howard33 · 03-05-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEStanek

Hey, those are fun to play! If you think that's odd look at this. Both the linked instrument and the banjoline are on my wish list....

Jamie

That bedpan mandolin is sweet!

Mandozilla - You make me wonder about bowing a mandolin now....

mandozilla · 03-05-2009, 08:59 PM

I tried it on my radius mando...for real...it sounds like a dying buzzard.

allenhopkins · 03-05-2009, 09:20 PM

Banjo-mandolins are just one of the tribe of banjo hybrids that surfaced somewhere around the turn of the 20th century. One that stuck was the "tango" banjo, as the 4-string, 5ths-tuned tenor banjo was sometimes called at first. The tenor went on to largely supplant the 5-string "regular" banjo (that label is why Gibson named its models "RB" and "TB"). There was the banjo-ukulele, the guitar-banjo, different banjo sizes such as piccolo, cello and bass, the banjeaurine, the plectrum banjo (a 5-string banjo without the 5th string), etc. etc.

The idea, of course, was to get a "banjo sound" -- mandolinists grudgingly have to admit that there are many who like the "banjo sound" -- from an instrument that played like a mandolin, ukulele, guitar, or mandola (tenor banjo). Most of these hybrids fell by the wayside. There are some wonderfully made banjo-mandolins by Vega, Gibson, Weymann, Bacon & Day, Cole, Fairbanks, and most of the quality banjo builders of the period 1890-1920. There are also tons of cheap "trade" banjo-mandolins showing up in flea markets, antique stores, on-line, wherever.

I work in a Celtic band with Mark Deprez, who builds some nice banjo-mandolins, with good tone rings, resonators etc. The instrument can work very nicely in the proper setting. I like my Vega Little Wonder, and play it on some jazz/ragtime pieces; I've used it for klezmer, and it can be a lot of fun. Admittedly it's raucous, piercing, and unsubtle, but sometimes that works!

So hardly abominable; just a somewhat disrespected crossbreeding of two worthy instruments.

mandopete · 03-05-2009, 09:41 PM

Ummmmm, ya did say ambominations with an "s", right?

MikeEdgerton · 03-05-2009, 09:50 PM

I was always under the impression that these hybrid instruments came into being as the instrument du jour changed. Mandolins were quite popular up into the early 20's. When the banjo became the rage this was one way that those with the ability to play the now old fashioned mandolin could now play in the new banjo era. The lack of interest in the mandolin and the new found interest in the banjo is one of the reason's there aren't more Loar signed instruments than there are today. By the mid-1920's the mandolin was old hat.

Eddie Sheehy · 03-05-2009, 10:23 PM

My abomination is bigger (relatively-speaking) than yours...

man dough nollij · 03-05-2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

So hardly abominable; just a somewhat disrespected crossbreeding of two worthy instruments.

And Allen ought to know. He has 47 of them. Right behind the Bavarian Ocarina collection...

jim_n_virginia · 03-06-2009, 12:53 AM

I have a banjolin AND a resonator mandolin. They just go together!

Randi Gormley · 03-06-2009, 06:32 AM

An acquaintance let me play his banjolin just for fun once and it was a hoot. Hard on the fingers, but an entirely different sound -- loud! I've had a soft spot in my hea --- heart for them since then.

Tim2723 · 03-06-2009, 07:01 AM

Eventually someone will come across a banjo-mandolin with Lloyd Loar's signature on the back and we'll all clamour after these things.

Well...maybe not.

You have to admit thought that they must have been popular at some time. There sure are a lot of them around.

I've always secretly wanted a contra-bass clarinet. I don't know why, I don't even play the clarinet. I just think they're neat.

Eric Platt · 03-06-2009, 07:10 AM

Came close to buying a banjoline a few years ago. A Little Wonder model at a flea market. It had a huge head and was probably good for a conversion to regular banjo. They're not common around here. The few I've seen were at flea markets or occasionally at vendor booths at festivals.

Actually have a guit-jo (banjo guitar). Got it in trade last year. Pretty cool for ragtime and blues numbers. Needs an entirely different set of skills than regular guitar. But I'm working on it.

Nate · 03-06-2009, 07:11 AM

I love my abomination, an old Gibson Jr model mandolin-banjo. The Gibson MB-Jr and MB-3 had smaller heads than the standard 11"-12" banjo pot, which [rumor has it] makes them easier to keep in tune and not so chock full of overtones.

After getting the head tension on mine approximately right (to where it resonates well when I tap it), and shimming the neck back to get the action correct, it stays in tune really quite well and plays as easily as my modern Tacoma mandolin.

MikeEdgerton · 03-06-2009, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Platt

...Actually have a guit-jo (banjo guitar). ...

I have one of those as well. Come to think of it, Dave Nichols at Custom Pearl Inlay called it the abomination the day I took it in to get some inlay work done on it. Mine is a converted Deering Tenor complete with Fults tailpiece and Waverly tuners. When I got it it had a shortened neck that was probably near mandola scale. It's really an abomination.

billkilpatrick · 03-06-2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEStanek

Hey, those are fun to play! If you think that's odd look at this. Both the linked instrument and the banjoline are on my wish list....

Jamie

... makes my ears hurt just looking at them.

jamie, lad ... something green and 'orrible(er) has just insinuated itself into your tasteful avatar.

sincerely - "concerned" in italy

John Flynn · 03-06-2009, 09:16 AM

Mando-banjos, or banjolines, have a long history. Lil 'Rev played one and talked about it at a mandolin workshop I attended. He said it was likely one of the first kinds of mandolins to be used in large, old-time, ragtime and blues string bands, in some cases back well into the 1800's. Bowlbacks just didn't have the volume and good ones could be too expensive for the masses. The mando-banjo was a good solution until the Gibson designs came along.

They can actually sound great in the hands of a good player. Curtis Buckhannon plays one on some of his old-time CD tracks and Dennis Pash plays one exclusively playing ragtime and blues. Both sound great. It is a niche instrument, to be sure, but it is not an abomonation by any means.

steve V. johnson · 03-06-2009, 09:34 AM

I had seen pix of banjolines but never heard one til an oldtime concert here with Brad Leftwich and Linda Higganbotham. Linda played one for the whole set and it was really great, a whole new sound to me.

Shortly thereafter I noticed that I have a collection of recordins of Irish music from the '20's (? I think) and there's at least one fellow on there playing a banjoline!

A fellow loaned a beautiful Deering guitar-banjo to my friend Dave McConnell, and we've never quite figured out how to use it in our music. Thanks for the ragtime and blues ideas, Eric! This instrument is very heavy, makes a Les Paul guitar seem a light load, so it doesn't get carried around much and no one likes to play it standing up!

My mom played a banjo ukulele when she was in college. it's outlasted her (no kidding) raccoon coat and I still have it here tho I don't play it. I should find it a new home... If you need a banjo
uke from that era, let me know?

stv

MikeEdgerton · 03-06-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sliabhstv

...A fellow loaned a beautiful Deering guitar-banjo to my friend Dave McConnell, and we've never quite figured out how to use it in our music. Thanks for the ragtime and blues ideas, Eric! This instrument is very heavy, makes a Les Paul guitar seem a light load, so it doesn't get carried around much and no one likes to play it standing up!...

The Deering B-6 is quite light as it doesn't have a normal tonering. The Deering D-6 on the other hand is built around a standard Mastertone type pot with tonering. All banjos built like that are heavy be they tenor 5 string or 6 string.

allenhopkins · 03-06-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by man dough nollij

And Allen ought to know. He has 47 of them. Right behind the Bavarian Ocarina collection...

Only two at this point, the Vega and a "no-name" someone gave me.

mandroid · 03-06-2009, 06:23 PM

I like my Banjo-Mandolins , of late I have come to favor the 4 string Melody-Banjo, as Bernunzio's calls them.. [ to differentiate them from the 8 string ] cuts thru the din in a ITM session,
and if I can figure out the tune ... doubles well with the Irish tuned tenor banjo.
Remo synthertic heads take out one tuning variable , pitch going down as the humidity goes up.

banjo , like a 'randy' Dog with making puppies on his mind, some mixed breeds are bound to result.

Hubert Angaiak · 03-07-2009, 06:20 PM

I have a '24 Gibson MB-4 with 9" trapdoor pot. I bought it from Elderly some years back. Heck.. it said "mandolin" so why not?! It has a nice neck and new skin head instead of plastic, so its not as loud. Alan Ede wrote three articles on it for The Mandocrucian's Digest and that is where I got the set up info and ordered a bridge from Mr. Ede. The bridge it maple and looks like a bridge used on flattop mandolins. It makes it sound more electric than banjo. Its fun to play with from time to time. An Irish tenor banjo player thought it was a blast play it. At least, when the banjo craze hit.. it kept the mandolin players employed. Yes.. my abomination is neat little machine that gets played from time to time, if the mood moves me.

03-05-2009, 07:59 PM	#1
Howard33 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 159	Abominations I ran across one of these at a local guitar store with a rather extensive and impressive display of stringed instruments. They ran the gamut from the typical electic and acoustic guitars to sitars, a few mandolins electric, taterbug, A and F style and even some banjos. At first I thought it was just a strange banjo on the wall then I picked it up gave it a good once over and read the tag. Low and behold... a banjoline. At first I thought it was gimmick, like the old Fiji Mermaid... a cobbled together conversation piece. But nope, after alittle research on the Nets, I find out that someone many moons ago looked at a poor mandolin and said to themselves "Hey, how can I make this 1. Harder to keep in tune? 2. Even more likely to get me ridiculed?" Please understand this is all in jest. It really wasn't all that bad and rather neat, considering I had never seen one before. I was even able to wash my hands after so I didn't get any of it's awkwardness on my mando at home.

03-05-2009, 08:06 PM	#2
mrmando Martin Stillion Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,097	Re: Abominations It's also possible that someone looked at a b@nj0 and said, "What can I do to help this poor instrument gain at least a modicum of respectability?" __________________ Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy! The Priest and the Publicans: Gospel bluegrass out of the box. Emando.com: More than you wanted to know. Donaldson • Rigel • Thormahlen • Andersen • Old Wave • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Roberts • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

03-05-2009, 08:32 PM	#4
JEStanek Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Pottstown, PA Posts: 8,226 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Abominations Hey, those are fun to play! If you think that's odd look at this. Both the linked instrument and the banjoline are on my wish list.... Jamie __________________ There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946 + Give Blood, Save a Life +

03-05-2009, 08:50 PM	#5
mandozilla Mark Evans Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Simi Valley, Ca Posts: 1,282	Re: Abominations Way too bjo-ish for me! HaHaHa But seriously, I've often considered buying a bjo-guitar...don't know why...I just think they look kinda Bluesycool and funky. I'd like to find a fiddle with a radius mandolin neck (a fidolin?) or a mandolin with a fiddle neck (a mandiddle?)...now that would be cool! Is it OK to say mandiddle? I hope so. : mandosmiley: __________________ "You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends off on your saddle."

03-05-2009, 08:59 PM	#7
mandozilla Mark Evans Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Simi Valley, Ca Posts: 1,282	Re: Abominations I tried it on my radius mando...for real...it sounds like a dying buzzard. __________________ "You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends off on your saddle."

03-05-2009, 09:20 PM	#8
allenhopkins Mando accumulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Rochester NY 14610 Posts: 4,893	Re: Abominations Banjo-mandolins are just one of the tribe of banjo hybrids that surfaced somewhere around the turn of the 20th century. One that stuck was the "tango" banjo, as the 4-string, 5ths-tuned tenor banjo was sometimes called at first. The tenor went on to largely supplant the 5-string "regular" banjo (that label is why Gibson named its models "RB" and "TB"). There was the banjo-ukulele, the guitar-banjo, different banjo sizes such as piccolo, cello and bass, the banjeaurine, the plectrum banjo (a 5-string banjo without the 5th string), etc. etc. The idea, of course, was to get a "banjo sound" -- mandolinists grudgingly have to admit that there are many who like the "banjo sound" -- from an instrument that played like a mandolin, ukulele, guitar, or mandola (tenor banjo). Most of these hybrids fell by the wayside. There are some wonderfully made banjo-mandolins by Vega, Gibson, Weymann, Bacon & Day, Cole, Fairbanks, and most of the quality banjo builders of the period 1890-1920. There are also tons of cheap "trade" banjo-mandolins showing up in flea markets, antique stores, on-line, wherever. I work in a Celtic band with Mark Deprez, who builds some nice banjo-mandolins, with good tone rings, resonators etc. The instrument can work very nicely in the proper setting. I like my Vega Little Wonder, and play it on some jazz/ragtime pieces; I've used it for klezmer, and it can be a lot of fun. Admittedly it's raucous, piercing, and unsubtle, but sometimes that works! So hardly abominable; just a somewhat disrespected crossbreeding of two worthy instruments. __________________ Allen Hopkins Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello Natl Triolian Dobro mando Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back H-O mandolinetto Stradolin Vega banjolin Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello Flatiron 3K OM

03-05-2009, 09:41 PM	#9
mandopete Registered Mandolin User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Coffee Town USA Posts: 5,900	Re: Abominations Ummmmm, ya did say ambominations with an "s", right? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Check out our website at http://www.staytunedbluegrass.com

03-05-2009, 09:50 PM	#10
MikeEdgerton Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 8,473	Re: Abominations I was always under the impression that these hybrid instruments came into being as the instrument du jour changed. Mandolins were quite popular up into the early 20's. When the banjo became the rage this was one way that those with the ability to play the now old fashioned mandolin could now play in the new banjo era. The lack of interest in the mandolin and the new found interest in the banjo is one of the reason's there aren't more Loar signed instruments than there are today. By the mid-1920's the mandolin was old hat.

03-05-2009, 10:23 PM	#11
Eddie Sheehy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 1,932	Re: Abominations My abomination is bigger (relatively-speaking) than yours... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Expensive Kindling with Strings

03-06-2009, 12:53 AM	#13
jim_n_virginia Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: South East Virginia Posts: 2,816	Re: Abominations I have a banjolin AND a resonator mandolin. They just go together!

03-06-2009, 06:32 AM	#14
Randi Gormley Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Connecticut, USA Posts: 271	Re: Abominations An acquaintance let me play his banjolin just for fun once and it was a hoot. Hard on the fingers, but an entirely different sound -- loud! I've had a soft spot in my hea --- heart for them since then. __________________ -------------------------------- 1929 Strad-o-lin 1973 Suzuki bowl back (wall decoration) 2005 Kentucky KM-380S 2006 Rogue (my toy) 2009 Giannini GBSM3 bandolim

03-06-2009, 07:01 AM	#15
Tim2723 Destroyer of Mandolins Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,067	Re: Abominations Eventually someone will come across a banjo-mandolin with Lloyd Loar's signature on the back and we'll all clamour after these things. Well...maybe not. You have to admit thought that they must have been popular at some time. There sure are a lot of them around. I've always secretly wanted a contra-bass clarinet. I don't know why, I don't even play the clarinet. I just think they're neat. __________________ 1. We are our own worst critics. 2. They're all drunk and don't care. 3. Sometimes you're just wallpaper. 4. Step off the stage and you're only a memory. 5. Music isn't a hard life. Coal mining is a hard life. 6. Mainstream music is not the only music. 7. If you want to be taken seriously, get serious. 8. If you think your strings are old, they are. 9. Tune it or die. 10. Mandolin bridges move. Unless you play an Ovation.

03-06-2009, 07:10 AM	#16
Eric Platt Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 62	Re: Abominations Came close to buying a banjoline a few years ago. A Little Wonder model at a flea market. It had a huge head and was probably good for a conversion to regular banjo. They're not common around here. The few I've seen were at flea markets or occasionally at vendor booths at festivals. Actually have a guit-jo (banjo guitar). Got it in trade last year. Pretty cool for ragtime and blues numbers. Needs an entirely different set of skills than regular guitar. But I'm working on it.

03-06-2009, 07:11 AM	#17
Nate Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisiana Posts: 92	Re: Abominations I love my abomination, an old Gibson Jr model mandolin-banjo. The Gibson MB-Jr and MB-3 had smaller heads than the standard 11"-12" banjo pot, which [rumor has it] makes them easier to keep in tune and not so chock full of overtones. After getting the head tension on mine approximately right (to where it resonates well when I tap it), and shimming the neck back to get the action correct, it stays in tune really quite well and plays as easily as my modern Tacoma mandolin.

03-06-2009, 09:16 AM	#20
John Flynn Habitual User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 6,387	Re: Abominations Mando-banjos, or banjolines, have a long history. Lil 'Rev played one and talked about it at a mandolin workshop I attended. He said it was likely one of the first kinds of mandolins to be used in large, old-time, ragtime and blues string bands, in some cases back well into the 1800's. Bowlbacks just didn't have the volume and good ones could be too expensive for the masses. The mando-banjo was a good solution until the Gibson designs came along. They can actually sound great in the hands of a good player. Curtis Buckhannon plays one on some of his old-time CD tracks and Dennis Pash plays one exclusively playing ragtime and blues. Both sound great. It is a niche instrument, to be sure, but it is not an abomonation by any means.

03-06-2009, 09:34 AM	#21
steve V. johnson I used to be sliabhstv. Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 3,561	Re: Abominations I had seen pix of banjolines but never heard one til an oldtime concert here with Brad Leftwich and Linda Higganbotham. Linda played one for the whole set and it was really great, a whole new sound to me. Shortly thereafter I noticed that I have a collection of recordins of Irish music from the '20's (? I think) and there's at least one fellow on there playing a banjoline! A fellow loaned a beautiful Deering guitar-banjo to my friend Dave McConnell, and we've never quite figured out how to use it in our music. Thanks for the ragtime and blues ideas, Eric! This instrument is very heavy, makes a Les Paul guitar seem a light load, so it doesn't get carried around much and no one likes to play it standing up! My mom played a banjo ukulele when she was in college. it's outlasted her (no kidding) raccoon coat and I still have it here tho I don't play it. I should find it a new home... If you need a banjo uke from that era, let me know? stv __________________ steve V. johnson http://cdbaby.com/Lopers2 The Lopers - New CD "There Was A Time" Original Acoustic Music http://cdbaby.com/Culchies Culchies - Irish Traditional Music

03-06-2009, 06:23 PM	#24
mandroid coprolite Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy Posts: 7,052	Re: Abominations I like my Banjo-Mandolins , of late I have come to favor the 4 string Melody-Banjo, as Bernunzio's calls them.. [ to differentiate them from the 8 string ] cuts thru the din in a ITM session, and if I can figure out the tune ... doubles well with the Irish tuned tenor banjo. Remo synthertic heads take out one tuning variable , pitch going down as the humidity goes up. banjo , like a 'randy' Dog with making puppies on his mind, some mixed breeds are bound to result. __________________ mandolin wanker writing about music is like dancing, about architecture

03-07-2009, 06:20 PM	#25
Hubert Angaiak Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Bethel, Alaska Posts: 163	Re: Abominations I have a '24 Gibson MB-4 with 9" trapdoor pot. I bought it from Elderly some years back. Heck.. it said "mandolin" so why not?! It has a nice neck and new skin head instead of plastic, so its not as loud. Alan Ede wrote three articles on it for The Mandocrucian's Digest and that is where I got the set up info and ordered a bridge from Mr. Ede. The bridge it maple and looks like a bridge used on flattop mandolins. It makes it sound more electric than banjo. Its fun to play with from time to time. An Irish tenor banjo player thought it was a blast play it. At least, when the banjo craze hit.. it kept the mandolin players employed. Yes.. my abomination is neat little machine that gets played from time to time, if the mood moves me. __________________ Hubert