Builder's Golden Era

[man dough nollij]

I saw the recent post about Ronnie McCoury's 1997 Gilchrist, and it got me thinking.

These builders that have been building for 30-some years-- which are the best ones? I assume that they learn more and more, so the newest ones would be the best, right? The only factor that would go against that, that I can think of is material availability. If there was some super-great tonewood available at some time in the past, that wasn't available now, it would make sense that we would look for instruments made during that time.

There are a few builders out there that are putting out reportably great instruments in their first few years of building (Dan Voight comes to mind, among others). I suppose all builders have a learning curve, though. After building a ton of instruments, they must get more experienced at tonewood graduation, etc.

That said, it might not be the greatest to get the first couple of instruments made by anyone.

There are so many killer mandolin builders out there now that are still reasonably priced, working up to more market share and higher pricing. I think the best values out there are probably with the folks that have done it for five or ten years. There seems to be at least a $10,000 premium on names like Nugget, Dudenbostel, Heiden, etc. Not to dismiss those great builders-- there's obviously a reason that their instruments are expensive.

So, I'm curious: are the best instruments from any given builder going to be the newest ones (leaving aside the breaking in/opening up arguement).

[Ivan Kelsall]

Having read your new thread,i couldn't help thinking about the Chris Thile/Dudenbostel saga,the one where he borrowed a Dude.while his was being built. Having got his 'new' Dude.,he found that he liked the earlier one more & purchased it from it's owner - i think i have my facts right here,but i stand to be corrected.
I don't think ANY builder builds consistently 'wonderful' instruments. As in the Thile case,the earlier was 'better' than the later built one - at least to Chris Thile's ears.I put 'better' in inverted comas,as sometimes a 'difference' is perceived to be 'better'. With regards to tone,it's a very individual thing,not all instruments sound 'good' to all people.
I've very often thought that maybe,some of the top players sound so good (not least because of their talent),but because they play the 'best' Gilchrists/Dudenbostels/Daleys etc.
I'm sure that builders are on a constant quest for 'perfection'. But then again,what one builder / player thinks is 'perfect',might not be what another builder/player thinks.
In the short time i've been playing Mandolin,i've heard instruments that their owners almost 'raved' about,but which left me a bit 'cold'.
Re.expense - it's been discussed on here many times,how builders arrive at a price for their instruments & i don't wish to go there !. My perception is that,as in all things,if 'something' gets a good reputation for quality - in Mandolins,quality of materials/workmanship/tone & playability,then if those instruments get into the hands of some of the 'better' players,people who aspire to a high standard of musicianship themselves,will seek those instruments out & the price WILL increase with demand.The builders have to make a living & in many cases,the higher the price,the greater the perceived quality. It's the old market traders ploy ie. if you're trying to sell shoes at $5 a pair & they aren't selling,raise the price to $10 a pair & watch 'em fly !.
People are strange in more ways than one. Things can be perceived as being 'cheap' & therefor 'NOT of GOOD quality'. Would a Rolex watch have as much kudos if they cost $10 instead of $10,000 ?,i doubt it & Rolex know it,they sell EVERY watch they make.
Well,for what it's worth,that's my take on it.But as in all things,other will have a 'different' opinion - the good Lord forbid that they shouldn't
Saska

[Timbofood]

I agree with you Saska, "percieved value" is one of the oddest of concepts. The "Rolex" analogy is fair too, it has a percieved value due to the art of marketing therfor, it commands great price. Are there other superior timepieces out there? Certainly, but, do they have the "percieved value" as the example of "Horological exellence" ("Rolex") not necessarily. A Lloyd Loar by any other would sound as sweet?

[sunburst]

If you read very much about Stradivari, you'll soon find many references to his "golden period". The work of Stradivari has been broken down into periods, related to the he work he was doing at various times in his life. His golden period was the time when he was turning out one "masterpiece" after another in great profusion.
I've read that every artist or artisan has a golden period; that time in his/her life when education and experience and wisdom accumulate until he/she does his/her life's best work. A gradual decline follows, as the artist/artisan ages and is no longer capable of the same level of detail as in the golden period.
When are a builder's best instruments produced? During his/her golden period. When is that? it depends on the builder, and we don't know until after it's over.

By the way, Stradivari's golden period started when he was in his 60s. That was after many years as an apprentice, starting in his youth, followed by many years working on his own, turning out an amazing amount of work.

[man dough nollij]

Hey John,

I've never had a chance (yet) to play any of your instruments, but I've heard a lot of high praise for them. When I get back to the real world I'll try and track one down.

Do you think that builders continuously improve until they retire? Would you say that your most recent mandolins are quite a bit better than your first ones? Is the learning curve of getting graduations dialed in a year, or ten? I know it depends a lot on things like having loars to take apart, apprenticeships, luck, and good materials.

I've heard of other builders beside yourself you seem to have gotten the magic touch early in their building careers. Jason Harshbarger and Dan Voight are a couple. What do you think are the ingredients of a very successful early builder?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

[barney 59]

I had read somewhere about Stradivari, that his instruments were so consistant and that was one of the things that really set him apart from others. As in, maybe there is a Guinarius(sp?)that blows the doors off a Strad someplace but then others don't.
Just the other day someone gave me a little speech about if you(meaning me) don't charge enough then no one will take you(meaning me) seriously. If a Rolex cost $10 instead of $10,000 then we would all have good timepieces and that wouldn't be a bad thing. Alot of people are hung up on the cost of a thing and will mention the expense of an item before they talk about it's qualities.
A blind test store would be a cool thing/just touch and hear-- no names and no price tags, you take home the one that strikes you. All mandolins same price and if you pick the Gil instead of the Kentucky you score if you don't you pay to much for a kentucky
Eric Schoenberg had sitting in a bunch of other guitars a true holy grail guitar, or as someone called it "the best one ever" at a guitar show recently. People would come by pick it up, a couple of people sat and played it a bit and then went on to the next booth completely unaware that they had just been in the presence of a $200,000 + guitar. I recognized it for what it was but thought that it must be a reproduction at first because who would bring that thing there and just sit it on a wobbly table with a bunch of other stuff in a noisy room. When I got close I could see that it was the real deal. I was afraid to touch it and couldn't understand how it was that there weren't armed Brinks guards standing next to it. I probably didn't pick it up and play it because maybe I thought I was unworthy..who knows.. but it sure was a beaut! The first mandolin I ever saw/touched was a Loar, as it turned out. That was long ago and it meant absolutely nothing to me--I just thought it was the weirdest looking thing I had ever seen but I liked the sound. I didn't know how to play but the owner Frank Wakefield who was visiting my friend did and he played some and showed me it and I got to hold it and plunk on it it wasn't too long after that that I got a mandolin for myself. It was still along time after that before I realized what a Loar was. My first teacher had one, I figured they were all over the place and were just an upgrade from the A-0 that I had come up with..

[sunburst]

Originally Posted by man dough nollij

Do you think that builders continuously improve until they retire? Would you say that your most recent mandolins are quite a bit better than your first ones? Is the learning curve of getting graduations dialed in a year, or ten?

1. Not always. Sometimes folks work until they can't see very well, until their hands start to go, until they can't hear very well, until their minds aren't as sharp as before. If a builder actually gets a chance to retire and can actually stop him/herself from building, then perhaps there can be improvement until then.
Some people start to believe they are as good as people say. They hear people talking about how great their instruments are and they start to believe it. When you think your really good, it's hard to get better. When you know it all, what is there to learn?

2. Definitely. Every time I finish a new mandolin I'm almost ashamed for anyone to play the one right before it! The new ones aren't really that much better, and I'm reminded of that whenever I run across one of my early ones; it's like, "hey, this thing's actually pretty good". I'm still learning, and still learning pretty fast, but there's just so much to learn! I suppose I won't be completely satisfied until every time I build a mandolin it's the best one there is. That's impossible, of coarse, but it keeps me trying to improve.

3. There's a lot more to it than graduations, and "dialed in" is subjective, but the time it takes for a builder to gain control of his/her materials and how to use them for his/her desired sound can vary a lot. Being taught by someone with a lot of experience can speed the process a lot, and there are a lot of books and other sources of information available now that weren't there when many of us started...like this web site(!), so younger builders can progress faster now than we old guys did, in general. If I had had a teacher, or if there was an internet when I started building mandolins I would have surely progressed much faster.
Many builders re-invent a lot of wheels and chase wild geese up a lot of blind alleys on their way to finding what works for them, and others take a more direct route, be it through training or luck.

You can't say "a builder will build his/her best mandolin four years, three weeks and 2 days after the first one" or "a builder's best mandolin will be his/her 32nd one". It's different for every builder, and like everything else in life, some have more than others.

[Tone Monster]

This is the golden era of luthiers for mandolin and guitars.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Ultimately,it's all down to personal taste - period !.John Hamlett thinks that his 'later' Mandolins are 'better' to his ears than his earlier ones,if i were fortunate enough to pick up one of his first instruments,i might have a personal opininon that it's the greatest Mandolin i'd ever heard,another person may think the same re.his latest instrument,& so it goes on.
Re.the Rolex argument - if Rolex watches were $10,we'd indeed all have a good watch,provided they were built to a $10,000 standard - but they wouldn't be,that was the point.They'd be built to a $5 standard & the price is cost plus profit (100% in the watch trade in the UK). The watch with the greatest kudos,would be the 'real deal' - the $10,000 Timex,i kid you not. Price is an indicatotor of "quality" to the majority of people - but as we know,it's not always the case. In the case of high quality musical instruments however,we are very,very fortunate indeed,that we have people of the highest integrity building them. People who set great store by their skill & craftsmanship,but as i said in my previous post,even here price 'counts' for something.
If we're in the market for a great instrument to purchase,the ONLY sensible thing to do,is to play as many as humanly possible for the individual & make a choice out of those. You folk in the US,are supremely fortunate to have all the Mandolins at your disposal to play,that are on the market. In the UK,we're fortunate to have one main store that caters for our Mandolin fantacies.
There are dozens of makes of instruments,that if i wanted to try one out,i'd have to visit the US - not a practical proposition unless you've got the cash to spare,
Saska

[Gail Hester]

By the way, Stradivari's golden period started when he was in his 60s. That was after many years as an apprentice, starting in his youth, followed by many years working on his own, turning out an amazing amount of work.

John, you've made my day with the possibility that the best is yet to come.

[Hans]

First off, it's nearly impossible to compare a ten year old mandolin from a builder to a brand new one. That said, as long as a builder is paying serious attention to his work, and make careful improvements in small steps, his work will continue to improve. There is no "best instrument". If he/she waivers, loses that spark, is distracted by outside influences (financial situation, marital woes, illness, etc) they will fall off that edge.
Why does it seem that some builders "get it" right away? Some of us builders have been around for a long time and have learned it all by ourselves. There are times where some may have turned down the wrong path only to find themselves retracing their steps and proceeding in a different direction. Nowadays an aspiring builder has it all set before them. Everything necessary to build a fine instrument is lain at their feet. All they have to do is search the web. Kits are available and even videos on how to do it. Many detailed tips are right here on Cafe...anyone with the curiosity required to build an instrument can find the information.
Generally speaking, the best instruments from a builder are the newest ones ...you get the latest innovation in thought from them.

[sunburst]

Originally Posted by Gail Hester

John, you've made my day with the possibility that the best is yet to come.

I know just how you feel, Gail. I remember reading that, realizing that the best could be yet to come, closing the book and getting up from where I was reading to go to the shop and get started getting better!

[scottie b]

there is a lot of truth about marketing. i remember a storie about a store with a screwdriver display,they werent moving very fast till a salesman came buy. he wrote 1.99 and marked it out ,then by the .99 wrote on sale. they sold out! we all make things higher priced because we are never happy with what we have and want better things(mandolins maybe?)than our neighbors!me too!!!

[sunburst]

Originally Posted by saska

Ultimately,it's all down to personal taste - period !.John Hamlett thinks that his 'later' Mandolins are 'better' to his ears than his earlier ones,if i were fortunate enough to pick up one of his first instruments,i might have a personal opininon that it's the greatest Mandolin i'd ever heard,another person may think the same re.his latest instrument,& so it goes on.

Saska, I suppose it's possible that it would turned out that the one I have here (#2) with the warped, clubby neck and the sanding scratches showing through the finish (among other problems) was the greatest you ever heard, but I would still argue that it is not my best.

[oldwave maker]

My golden era started jan23 this year, momma sez about 4:32am.......havent noticed any ch-ch-changes yet.....but who are all these people, and where the heck are my horses?

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Bill,
If I read Hans's comments correctly then building instruments is an endeavor that flows from one state to another, always heading toward a goal, but never getting there. This philosophy put you, figuratively speaking, in a stream. So you can have your horses once you're out of the water. Haven't you ever heard the saying, "Don't change horses in mid-stream?" :D

[Ok that was a L O N G way to go for a dubious punch line, but I couldn't help myself!]

I've very often thought that maybe,some of the top players sound so good (not least because of their talent),but because they play the 'best' Gilchrists/Dudenbostels/Daleys etc.

Saska,
A single listen to David Grisman and Tony Rice's Tone Poems CD will cure you of this idea. It's not the instrument, it's the player, provided that the instrument is not so badly set up that it is physically difficult to play.

Daniel

[LVH]

I actually disagree. I don't think that chris likes the sound of number 5 "better". I know this was discussed a while ago but i would like to bring to the point that chris just likes the neck better on number five. As far as "consistent quality", as you said, I disagree again. Yes they are different instruments, but all of the instruments lynn is pushing out are "consistently great" instruments. I doubt you will find a dudenbostel that doesn't sound good. Maybe you will find one that doesn't suit your needs, but you can't say it isn't a good instrument. Lynn's work is quality, he is making excellent mandolins and I don't know anyone who would disagree. You see, You might play a dudenbostel that you like more than chris' dudenbostel. I sure have. Don't get me wrong chris has a great mandolin and I love it. I played it last year and it is amazing, But I lean torwards Red Spruce over Englemann. I played two Red spruce Dudenbostels and both of chris'. They were all great mandolins but chris's mandolin isn't a bluegrass mandolin. It does have great sound though.

[Gail Hester]

My golden era started jan23 this year, momma sez about 4:32am.......havent noticed any ch-ch-changes yet.....but who are all these people, and where the heck are my horses?

Thanks Bill, now I have to clean tea out of my keyboard.

[Timbofood]

Perfection can be persued, not attained. The depth of the persute is what separates the good, the bad, and the ugly. Above all :"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!" Tonally or visually!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Point taken John -The #2 you refer to possibly has aged rather badly,but i think that you also understand my point - your #2 'might' have been 'awesome' in the way that Dude.#5 seemed to Mr Thile. Re.''personal preference'' - Luke has it stated as well as it can be i reckon. One person's 'better' is another person's 'difference' - i just wish i could get my hands on a few Dudes.& Gils. etc.,a fat chance of that in the UK !!!,
Saska

[Jim Nollman]

Great thread. I spent 3 months getting a pot of money together to buy a new professional mandolin to be used primarily for recording. About half way through my saving process, I started a thread here on the Cafe, focused primarily on asking builders if they thought they could re-create a specific sound of some used mandolin. I used the Thile Dude sound as my basis, since it was well known.

The responses ran the gamut, as might be expected, from "certainly can do that" to "nearly impossible to predict from scratch".

At some point, as the thread developed, and my actual question got better clarified, most builders started weighing in a bit differently. Understanding how sound oriented I was, most replied that I might do best to buy a used instrument. I was very thankful for that guidance, especially as received from some very skillful builder's. I moved forward.

I conclude that what the best builder's can give you 100% of: is their own brand, the specific "look" plus fit and finish you seek. And at the end of the process, you own a unique instrument, to grow musically with. That's a lot. But sound still remains less than 100% assured.

When my savings reached a certain amount where i knew I had enough to actually buy a very high quality used instrument, I fully recognized that, for myself, i didn't really care who made the instrument, and even what it looked like. Neither scroll envy, nor ff holes were important, per se. For me it was 100% about finding some mando sound that would inspire me to develop a new path of recorded mandolin music. AND, here's the kicker...at that point, I wasn't completely sure what kind of sound I wanted. So I started listening to mp3s and watching youtube.

That's when the immense value of the Cafe's classifieds kicked in for me. I went there every day for 2 months. I'd see a mandolin up for sale, and if looked promising, I'd ask the seller to send me an mp3. While any recorded mandolin certainly has it limitations, especially when made by an amateur, this process seemed a better fit for letting me choose a sound, then simply asking a builder to build a new instrument.

I finally bought a physically gorgeous BRW. But what sealed the deal, was that the seller was a recording artist, so I could hear this particular mandolin being played in some sophisticated music that actually reflected where i wanted to go with my own recording project. I am well aware that my reason is as irrational as a person who chooses an instrument only by the name scribed into the headstock. As irrational...and just as valid.

[Frank Russell]

beluga - I thought my great uncle's Smithsonian Folkways recording of different frog sounds was at the top of the quirky classics list, until I listened to your turkey recordings. Good stuff. Frank

[Jim Nollman]

well OK. It was a radio hit in (hold onto your hats) 1973. If i was doing it now, I'd use a mandolin

[Duc Vu]

Originally Posted by oldwave maker

My golden era started jan23 this year, momma sez about 4:32am.......

Finally!

[Capt. E]

It may be sacriledge, but I have heard some BM recordings where the sound from his loar just didn't seem all that good, then others where the sound is absolutely sublime. The player can certainly make all the difference. I like the comment about Thiele's Dude #5: he prefers the neck. It can be small things that make one mandolin "superior" to another and many of those "things" are quite subjective. I am enjoying my 2008 Weber "Bighorn" every day and look forward to developing my playing ability and my ear until I truely "hear" the differences between instruments. One reason I try and go over to my local shop regularly to try out the Collings and Altman and Ellis mandolins they have hanging on the wall ready to sing. I suspect now is the golden age of guitars and mandolins. We have so many fabulous instruments to choose from. Who knows, perhaps there are people out there making violins and cellos equal to those of Stadivari. Time will tell.