Supporting You Local Luthier

[Steve Perry]

I'm not sure where I stand here?.... As far as local luthiers, Gibson is 2 hours SW of me... Ken Radcliff (Silver Angel) is 2 hours NE of me... I bought my mandolin (that I played before I bought) from an independant luthier in Japan (Sumi) from a store (FQMS) 40 minutes away from my house.

I'm soooo confused!

[Frank Russell]

I've ridden both sides of this fence, and I think it's pretty relative. Like some others here, I don't have a "local luthier" in my part of SoCal. I had one, and I still have a beautiful little flattop with a carved back that he made, but he moved to Maine, so he's not available for "drop in visits." For a long time, I bought only name brands, or factory mandolins, because of a few imperfect small builders' instruments I had owned and was not satisfied with. I took a few chances on some more well-known "independent luthiers," like Old Wave Bill, Arches, Kettler, and BRW, and was pleased with the build quality, sound and looks of their instruments. Now there are definitely "small builders" whose work I would trust to be as consistent as Collings, Weber and Gibson. One of my personal favorites has always been R.L. Givens. Greg Boyd doesn't specialize in them just because he's quirky. I have yet to play a Givens mandolin that was a clunker. Matter of fact, seven or eight years and thirty something mandolins down the road from the start of my mandolin journey, the only instruments I own are "independent luthier" instruments. I've got the aforementioned flattop (technically, it might be a domra - it's got four strings), an Andrew Jerman solid body Les Paul Jr. electric mando, and a Givens A3 that I traded a Cafe member for. Without a local builder, or even a good store less than two hours drive away, I've done lots of my purchases/trades through the Classifieds here, and bought several mandolins sight unseen from Cafe sponsors. So far, I've been lucky. For me, if it feels good to my hands and sounds good to my ears, I could really care less whose name is on the headstock anymore. Perfection is no longer my goal in buying. Is my Givens perfect? No, there's a few flaws. Does it play like glass and sound like I want it to? Oh yeah. Frank

[Timbofood]

Good points each and every one of them! We each must, in the end, make our own decisions. What I choose may not be anothers cup of tea. I find this topic really interesting.
Mike, I would offer that Minnesota is not that far if you like a "long commute." My "Maine" connection is coming back to the "neighborhood" and I welcome him and spouse with pots of coffee or Mint Juleps depending on when they get setlled!

[man dough nollij]

Nobody is local to me. I suppose the closest would be Davy Stuart in Christchurch.

I think the "instant gratification" thing is interesting. I've been known to be quite impulsive, especially around spending too much money on things I don't need, but custom instruments are different. I'm on a couple of waiting lists now, and the waiting is part of the fun.

I'm on Bill's list for an Old Wave oval that I guess will be done late this year. I want a mesquite back and cedar top. I lived in Arizona for a long time, and those woods have a lot of meaning for me. I remember hiking through mesquite and catclaw, having to disentangle from their nasty stickers. I remember picking up logs of mesquite and marveling at how hard and dense it is. My favorite smell in the world is someone burning shagbark or aligator juniper in a woodstove. It's an intense, cedary smell. I'm hoping my OW has a little of that cedar smell.

Though Bill is not anywhere near a local luthier to me, his handywork has "Southwest" all over it, which has a lot of local connection for me.

I'm on a longer-term list for a Mowry. I have never seen nor handled one of his instruments-- just looked at pictures. I have a sense from looking at his work that it will be what I'm looking for. The finish and inlay look great, and I've heard a lot of good things about the tone of his mandolins. There's a two-point lefty at Greg Boyd's that's close to what I'm imagining.

In the meantime, I'm so impressed with the tone and playability of my new bottom-of-the-line Eastman that there's no big hurry to get anything different.

Just got to keep playing, so I am closer to worthy of those great custom instruments when the big brown truck appears.

[barney 59]

I prefer things that show the craftsmans hand. The slight imperfections that you may find give it character-I think. In a production setting you have specialists and dedicated machinery doing the work. Someone is the neckman,someone does finishes etc.and if they can figure out how to automate a process they eliminate the person that would be doing that.I don't know for sure but I would be surprised to find out that in any production shop one builder does one instrument start to finish. I would think that most independent craftsmen have somethings that they are better at than others. I personally find that if I'm working with wood I'm good to go but find finishing for example a little daunting. You can also see that in most handmade instruments but you also see the love and care and attention that was put into it. One of the main things that I think distinguishes the craftman made item from a production shop item is the risk factor. The possibilty of failure is always there in a one off handmade instrument. A good craftsman will not let it out of his shop if it doesn't meet his standards and it can be a real hardship for him financially. His time is gone and he can't get it back -so a craftman will be very careful to not let that happen. I'm sure most independent builders of fine instruments spend their entire careers never able to make car payments. Some make it over the top and do quite well but most and that is your "local" luthier is struggling. In a production shop there is always the paycheck at the end of the week there is almost no risk.

[Chuck Naill]

...or you can get manufactured housing and get a consistent product, not have to wait, and pay less.
By the way, manufactured housing can be of high quality just as manufactured instruments can, but it seems to me there is a different connotation that I don't fully understand.

Beverly and I have built three houses in our 33 years of marriage. We interviewed and talked about what we wanted before any contracts were signed.

Yes, you want a relationship with a builder, but you never want to hire someone you cannot hire. Don't hire your bother-in-law.

John, I hope you do not mind me saying this, but after reading your web site verbiage and the posts you leave on MC, I can tell that you are a person of integrity. You are honest, straight forward, and I am sure you would be someone who I would enjoy working on a mandolin project with. You are the type of local/independent builder that I feel that I could support.

chuck

[onassis]

for me, the issue really comes down to money. Someday, when finances (hopefully) permit, it is my dream to own a Hamlett. For now, however, even saving up enough for a bottom-rung Eastman seems like a pipe dream. So I'll just keep plinking away on my $200 Washburn and imagine someday being able to support my local luthier!

[dandhr61]

I think it depends on if you consider your insterment art, like the music played on it or just a plain old tool.

[Chuck Naill]

I think it depends on if you consider your insterment art, like the music played on it or just a plain old tool.

Like my grandfather said, "you only have to buy a good tool one time".

[DonnieJoe]

My wife ...bought me my first mando for Christmas and I love it. I was considering having it fine tuned by a Luthier to get some of the bugs worked out but can't find one in my area. I live on Long Island and have been looking but cannot find a local Luthier. Since I am a newbie perhaps someone can steer me in the right direction and help me out. I tried searching the yellow pages on yahoo and have had no luck.

[EdSherry]

I have a significant number of instruments from individual luthiers or small shops (e.g., Sobell, Phil Crump, Charles Horner, Petersen, a nice Huss & Dalton OM guitar), but I've never ordered one directly from the luthier.

I tend to buy used rather than new, so that someone else takes the "depreciation hit." I acknowledge that buying a used luthier-made instrument doesn't benefit the luthier directly (he already sold it once, and doesn't make anything on the resale), but I think that it benefits the luthier indirectly (as having a good resale market for used instruments makes others more willing to buy new ones).

I'm with Allen -- I'll buy a good instrument (new OR used) if I can "try before you buy" in a shop, but I'm reluctant to order one without being able to do so. I know that many luthiers will work with you to deliver what you're after, but I've tended to be of the "I want to hear it and play it before I plunk down my money" school. Given the difficulty of trying to describe in words exactly what you're seeking, ordering an instrument "on faith" that what you will ultimately get is what you were seeking is just not a step I'm willing to take (at least for high-end stuff).

[Charles E.]

Where I live I have observed ' the local guy syndrome '. That is how can you be any good if you live here? Some people think Quality only exists in another part of the country.

[Chuck Naill]

Where I live I have observed ' the local guy syndrome '. That is how can you be any good if you live here? Some people think Quality only exists in another part of the country.

Yes, Charlie, you are in good company.


"And when He was come into His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in Him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in His own country, and in His own house. And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." (Matthew 13:54-58 KJV)

[Timbofood]

I think that the great cold south would have to win the "ain't nobody in the neighborhood" argument. Unless, of course you have taught the Adelaide's how to "tap tune" (we all know they can tap dance!"). Maybe the Emperors have better feel for it, Who knows? A balmy 9 above this fine morning here, if You, dear correspondant, would want to feel just a touch warmer, Brave soul!

[man dough nollij]

+9F here, too. A bit of a different context, though. That's a balmy late summer day. 17 days of summer left!

Mando content: Only about 170 days 'till the first plane gets here. Then it might be time to obsess on all the gear I can order that I don't need. How about 147 Blue Chip picks! Woo Hoo!

[JEStanek]

Chuck, I'm reasonably sure that our builders don't want that comparison made and I'm also pretty sure that's getting into quite dangerous ground with the Posting Guidelines.

Thanks,
Jamie

[Timbofood]

Touche! "When you comin' back , Red(White, snowy, frostbitten) rider"?
Keep warm, mid 40's here by end of week!
So, how do you keep your fingertips "in shape" for your return picking?

(That would to return to a modicum of mando content)

[man dough nollij]

Oh, for that balmy Michigan weather! I'll be back to my old stompin' grounds in Montana around November or so. I'll be the pale, trembling wretch with the thousand yard stare...

[sunburst]

The weather forecast calls for about +9 degrees here tonight too. How can Michigan, Antarctica, and Virginia all be the same within one day?!
Mando content; I'm getting ready to stoke up the shop wood stove and glue some top and back center seams. I feel smug using hide glue in "the dead of winter"!

[Santiago]

I'd much rather have a custom instrument, but I can't afford it at this point in time.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Both Allen & Chuck hit the nail right on the head re.my own feelings on this point. I WOULD buy a 'local' builder's instrument if i could play it first without having to commision it.That's the ONLY way that we have to make sure that it sounds & plays right for us.There's no other way we can possibly do that. One other factor comes into play also,that of 'saleability' if we ever decide to
change our instrument & need to sell one to fund another.This is VERY important also. We need to be sure that we have an instrument that we can 'sell on' & only the 'well known' makers have that
reputation such that we can be sure (almost) of finding a buyer for our instruments.
Whether we like it or not - 'names' mean a lot when buying anything.That,& 'who plays' a particular make of instrument. We all KNOW these things are true. The thing that really puzzles me, is why we need to raise the question every now & again "why aren't some makers 'as popular' as others" ? - we already know the answer. There's no doubt whatsoever in my own mind,that there are 'monster' instruments being built that we haven't heard of 'yet'. Re.those instruments,the word hasn't got around,maybe it will,maybe it won't,only time will tell.
Getting back to 'the point' of this thread,most certainly support your local luthier - whoever he/she is. If he/she can make an instrument for you that you're truly going to 'live with' for a long while,then go for it. My own reasoning as to why many of us 'don't',i've stated above - purely my opinion,
Saska

[barney 59]

It funny but out here in foggy California people think "How can anything from anywhere else be any good?" The mentality is particularly weird since no one is from here.

As for people who think that they can't afford buying from a independent builder--no, you probably can't buy a Gil-- and your not alone there but there are a number of up and coming custom builders who can compete with the price of a Weber or a Collings.

[frankenstein]

Originally Posted by Chuck Naill

Like my grandfather said, "you only have to buy a good tool one time".

Tell that to the Eastman fans, sheeesh ! Independant or local luthiers for me.

[Rob Powell]

I once said I would never buy an instrument that I hadn't played and then I bought my The Loar. I bought it from Big Joe Vest and I bought it on his word that it sounded great.

I support the local mom and pop music stores which I think is also important.

Here are some of the reasons for buying a "production" mandolin:

1) Trade in another instrument toward the cost. This is hard for an independent builder to do.
2) Name value when trading or selling.
3) Readily available to play the instrument that you are buying.

The thing is that I have come to realize that many independents like John or Hans or Bill or Michael or <insert builder here> have a reputation and a presence here on the cafe. That takes care of a whole bunch of things.

You can get a whole lot of feedback from people who have purchased instruments from them. They didn't get that good reputation for poor customer service or for building bad sounding instruments.

As an example, I think it's a pretty safe bet that any mandolin you get from Hans is going to sound great. Just look at all the happy campers here. A lot of independents go to IBMA and other venues where you CAN play a few of their non-spec instruments. You can get an idea of the consistency of their builds from that and from their reputation. I doubt any of them would sell a mandolin that they didn't think passed muster.

I would also bet that if you aren't happy with the mandolin, Hans will work with you until you are. Like all the builders here, he enjoys a good reputation. I'm not saying that all builders do this or even Hans, but I've seen a few builders advertise a mandolin that was built for someone which they wound up not taking for some reason.

Lastly, if you want to sell or trade it at some point, you can get good value for it and a semi-captive audience I might add, right here on the cafe.

For some, "only a Gibson..." and that's what floats their boats. I would say to them that they should contact Jim Triggs or Sim Daley or <insert luthier who built for Gibson> and you can get the sound you are looking for IF you want to go that route.

These are the things that have turned me around on the possibility of having an independent build a mandolin for me.

As a nod to Big Joe, Charlie D. and David Harvey, Gibson OAI built and still builds some pretty fine mandolins so you can't go wrong there either. Bruce Weber, Kim Breedlove and even some of asian connections are building some pretty nice, luthier built instruments too.

As many have said, we live in a good era for mandolins!

[Dagger Gordon]

Depends what you mean by 'local'. Most of the discussion seems to have drifted off into small independent builders as opposed to big companies.

That's not what I perceive the question to be asking. Do you have someone in your own locality- say within 150 miles of where you live- who is a good builder? Is their work good? If so, would you support them.

In my case I can think of a number of builders here in the Scottish Highlands whose work is known here on the Cafe such as Mike Vanden (instruments played by Simon Mayor), Thomas Buchanan (unfortunately now moved to England), David Freshwater and others. A friend of mine has had two instruments made by Skye builder Seamus MacLennan (Skyesound). I am also aware of a number of fiddle, whistle and pipe makers.

I think if you like any local makers work it is good to buy from them. If there are any problems it's good to have them tweaked by the maker himself. However, that's only true if you like the work in the first place.

What I would NOT do is order from a luthier just because I liked the look of their work in a picture without any experience of hearing or playing them.
In Britain we are lucky to have a shop which stocks a lot of mandolins by independent luthiers - The Acoustic Music Co in Brighton.
I spent time there a couple of years ago, and it was very interesting trying out stuff from many different makers - both independent and factory. The one thing which I found was that some of these didn't sound like I'd expected at all. No names, but some stuff which people like here on the Cafe just didn't do that much for me. I put that down to my own preferences rather than anything wrong with the instruments themselves.
I really liked a Phoenix (independent, but certainly not local), but in the end bought a Collings MT.

I should say that I have two instruments by Stefan Sobell (about 300 miles away) which were commisioned and have been fantastic buys.