Collings Tops

[BlueNote]

This has probably been discussed many times but I can't remember things as well as I used to. Why does Collings use Engleman for the MT and Red Spruce for the higher trimmed models. Is Engleman cheaper, or easier to finish or somehow sound less complex in tone?

[Mandolin]

Red Spruce Is hard to find, Therefor it is worth alot more. Red Spruce Is alot louder has a warmer tone, a major preference in the bluegrasss world. Englemann isn't exactly not as good. It is brighter, but it isn't as loud. Chris Thile's dudenbostel Is Englemann. The loars were Red Spruce so red spruce is very desirable in the mandolin world.

[Ken_P]

Englemann isn't exclusive to the MTs, either. I have an MT2 with an Englemann top, and it's a wonderfully complex sound. Yes, not as loud as Red, but I couldn't ask for more in terms of tone. I've also seen other Collings across the entire range made with Englemann, even an MF5V Deluxe.

[Mandolin]

I also played a collings MF5 Sitka

[Patrick Gunning]

Personally, I think the issue is not one of costs, but is instead one of differentiating their product for different segments of the market. Considering how much CNC work goes into a Collings mandolin, if they all were made out of the same materials, there would be even less tonal variation between the MT and the MF5. Colliings has to give customers a reason to upgrade, and one easy way to guarantee a difference in tone and volume between the MT brand (englemann default), the MF brand (sitka default), and the MF5 brand (adirondack/red default) is to put different woods in each.

It's a business decision to promote upgrading with company loyalty, while still securing market share at every price point. In another thread, someone quoted Bill Collings as saying he loses money on the MT's. If that's accurate, they are a loss leader into the other models, so he has to offer something more to encourage that upgrade. Adirondack/red spruce usually is the most preferred top wood by his primary consumer (bluegrass players), so it makes sense to only hand that out with the highest upgrade.

[Mandolin]

I thought the MF's were Englmann also

[Mandolin]

The MF is our satin finish F-model with simplified appointments. With a fully carved Adirondack spruce top and maple back and sides, the MF is built with the same quality construction as our fully-appointed models. These instruments produce the rich, woody tone that one would expect from a professional quality mandolin at an affordable price.

Collings website says it is Adirondack. I didn't think that was the case

[Patrick Gunning]

Actually, I have to retract the MF=sitka statement. That was based on old info, Collings used to call the MF tops on the website "select" spruce, which I was told was sitka a couple years back, but I just checked, and it appears to be adirondack on the MF. Well, there goes my theory. It could still be a differentiation between the MT and the other brands, but it's not as stepwise as I originally surmised.

[Patrick Gunning]

Mandolin, looks like we were on the same wavelength.

[Mandolin]

haha yup. I'm not sure if that is true though. I have played a MF custom that was adirondack. I don't think that is a standard wood on the MF

[sgarrity]

This has been discussed many times. The MTs come standard with Englemann and the rest of their mandolins come standard with red spruce. They will make any model with Englemann however. I've never seen or played a sitka topped Collings mandolin.

[Ken Olmstead]

The englemann topped MT is an incredibly warm, full and complex sounding mandolin. The other models have never grabbed my ear, at least as new mandos. Weird how a simple change in spruce makes all the difference in a mandolin to an ear.

[Mandolin]

Just curious, But how would a mandolin sound with englmann treble, and red spruce bass? Vice versa?

[oldtimestrings]

Originally Posted by Mandolin

Red Spruce Is a lot louder has a warmer tone, a major preference in the bluegrass world. Englemann isn't exactly not as good. It is brighter, but it isn't as loud.

This is rather subjective, and varies from one instrument to the next, and one player to the next. It also varies as an instrument ages. With all that said, I have to disagree with the quote above. I don't think red spruce is louder than Engelmann, though it might project differently. Red spruce tends to give a more focused tone, and cuts through a little better. I definitely would not say Engelmann is brighter. If anything, Engelmann is warmer than red spruce, but again these timbres are really too complex to capture accurately with one-adjective metaphors.

I do agree that red spruce is the preferred wood & sound for bluegrass, a lot of which has to do with tradition. OTOH, I find Engelmann to be a more versatile topwood that can work just fine in bluegrass but easily fits into other style as well.

[mandocaster]

Do you think Collings keeps track of which wood went on which mandolin? I have an MF-5V, but I can't remember what the top is made from. It sounds fine, whatever it is.

[Chuck Naill]

This is rather subjective, and varies from one instrument to the next, and one player to the next. It also varies as an instrument ages. With all that said, I have to disagree with the quote above. I don't think red spruce is louder than Engelmann, though it might project differently. Red spruce tends to give a more focused tone, and cuts through a little better. I definitely would not say Engelmann is brighter. If anything, Engelmann is warmer than red spruce, but again these timbres are really too complex to capture accurately with one-adjective metaphors.

My Martin D-18 guitar experiance is that one with Red spruce is less mellow sounding than a comparable Sitka topped one where the individual notes stand out more to my ears. However, I find that Englemann and Red spruce more closely comparable.

One reason I started a thread about various back wood products is that I am now thinking that it is the back and not the top that more accurately defines tone. It would be interesting if someday we are a carefree about which tops are used as we seem to be which maple is using today.

I read recently that Englemann is chemically the same as some European spruce, but I cannot remember the source to document.

[mingusb1]

I agree that a simple description of Red SPruce being louder than Engelmann is not adequate. The two mandolins I currently have are both Engelmann-topped and are as loud or louder than a number of Red spruce mandos I have played side-by-side with them. I also have a newer Sitka-topped Gibson advanced jumbo guitar that people think is Adirondack because it is loud. Go figure.

Z

[Bob DeVellis]

Various species of spruce overlap in their tonal characteristics. On average, as I understand it, Adi is stiffer and has higher tone velocity than other spruces. This can give it a capacity to resist being "overdriven" when played really hard. But wood being wood, it really comes down to the characteristics of each piece. It may well be that Collings selects its woods to represent the typical or ideal tone characteristics of each species. They're a small enough company, I would think, to be pretty picky about their wood. I tend to think of different types of spruce as "different" rather than "better." My Collings is Adi-topped and sounds great but I think of it as a whole package, involving design, materials, and construction. Each plays its part but I'll be darned if I can figure out what aspects of the instrument contribute which specific characteristics to the overall sound.

[Tone Monster]

My Collings MF5 haS Adi-top too