Advise pls: Playing in a honky tonk w/ a honky tonk band

[rekx]

Hello friends...I am need of a bit of advise.

I have been invited to play a concert with my cousin Ben's band. The problem is that the concert will be in a pretty loud honky tonk and I'll be playing with a loud honky tonk band. I have no idea how to plug in and be heard (and sound ok). I will be playing my Weber Yellowstone.

I do own a Shure SM57 microphone. Would this be sufficient plugged into an amp? Or will I get feedback? Would a SCHERTLER DYN-M be a better way to go? Do I need my own amp and pre-amp?...Or can I plug into the guitar players amp?

I am really excited about playing this concert, but I am a complete n00b about plugging in, and playing with a plugged in band.

Please help me out...any advise will be much appreciated.

[Tim2723]

In a loud, close-quarter situation you are likely to get feedback with a mic, or have to turn down and risk being lost in the mix. If everyone else is using seperate amps and you go through the vocal PA or the house mains, you'll also have another set of problems to deal with.

I play every weekend in loud, close bars. They're Irish, but have way more in common with a honky tonk than a concert hall. I'd recommend a good pickup and preamp. The Baggs Radius and Para DI combo is a hot ticket and very easy to use for a newcomer. The Schertler DYN-M is a top-of-the-line contact mic, but plugging it into a guitar amp seems a bit counter productive to me. With the Baggs you won't get the perfect reproduction you're used to with your mic, but in loud, tight spaces I have two rules:

1. We are our own worst critics.
2. They're all drunk and don't care.

As to going through the guitar player's amp, it depends on the amp. Some can handle two instruments a once and others can't. You'll have to check with the guitarist. If he has a second amp you can borrow for the night you might get away with that. I'd try this all out ahead of time, of course. If you need to buy an amp, I'd strongly recommend you look at acoustic instrument amps rather than electric guitar amps. Your cousin can probably give you better advice than anyone about the best size, as he'll know more about his band's playing history and the rooms they perform in.

[flatt]

I alternate between playing acoustically, and in a VERY loud band with a thrash-bash drummer and rampant lead guitarist.

I realise that my Fishman bridge-pickup (the M100) is nowhere near an acoustic sound, but it's got an end-pin jack, and suddenly it's just like an electric instrument, running through stomp boxes and into a poky little amp (which goes through the PA as well)

I am always torn between the Fishman and replacing it with something more acoustic-sounding, but - actually - the set up I have works really well, and it's neat and clean and no extra wires training anywhere.

(Note - I read somewhere on this site - someone mentioned using a similar set-up to mine; a good delay/echo pedal gives the mandolin that sparkle that you lose through being just the amplified strings from the bridge)

[mangorockfish]

I'm a drummer, so take this for what it's worth. There are two kinds of amps, producers and reproducers. Producers for solid body instruments and reproducers for acoustic instruments. This is not to say that each cannot be used for the other. I've found that if an acoustic instrument is plugged into a producer type amp, the sound is very "tinny". Try using a Fender Acoustisonic (sp) amp. They are great for acoustic instruments and also have a channle to plug a vocal mic into for small venues.

[greg_tsam]

Originally Posted by Tim2723

...in loud, tight spaces I have two rules:

1. We are our own worst critics.
2. They're all drunk and don't care.

heehee... I came to the same conclusions myself, brother.

[CES]

1. We are our own worst critics.
2. They're all drunk and don't care.

You're absolutely right! One of my favorite wedding receptions ever was one at which a local band called Liquid Pleasure (mostly a MoTown/soul type act) played. Their motto is (as declared on their bass drum), "THe more you drink, the better we sound!" They sound pretty good to start with, but definitely got better as the afternoon wore on

As for the OP, all good advice from the above folks. You can use a Mandobird or other solid body electric and slip into things more easily/cheaply (at least instrument and amp-wise), but you basically are getting an electric guitar sound, which is probably not what you're after.

Regardless of what you end up with, hope you have a great time!! (The crowd definitely will)...

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Not knowing how soon you need to get this together, or what kind of budget you are on makes advice a bit difficult. Tim gave some good info.
For just a concert or the limited times you will need this kind of rig vs. frequent use would make a difference in how deep you want to get.

Perhaps you should borrow an electric mandolin and see what it does? If it works for you, then try the concert with it.

If you are attached to reproducing an acoustic sound, the the Schertler is the least invasive option, and an excellent quality one. As was mentioned, you might want to run into the board with it, which can be great or not, depending on the operator.
There are several other pickup options that are a little more cumbersome as temporary, but less so with permanent installation if you want to do that to your mandolin. They cost much less, but really require additional preamp. Still cost is a bit less than Schertler.
But then the amp. There are quite a few good acoustic amps, and these work better than almost all guitar amps would in this situation, although some here have had luck with a specific few non acoustic amps. Again, the cost factor.

Listen to what those who do this regularly say. I attempt it from time to time and always give it up. Unless I find a band who earns enough to pay me enough that I can obtain the gear necessary. It's very frustrating to use less that is needed.


My last attempt utilized what I had on hand and worked but was limited in many ways. Acoustic mandolin (f-holes) into Shure SM57 into Baggs PADI into acoustic amp plus a direct out from amp to board and mains. Limited in the sense that I was still being overpowered by the rest of the band. Positive in the sense there were no feedback issues, which crop up more when i go to the board without the amp.
For those who wonder why the Baggs, it gives me more control and volume than just my 50W acoustic amp by itself.



rasa
Jonathan Reinhardt

[Steve Ostrander]

I have another rule that's similar: I may not be the greatest mando player, but I'm probably better than anyone in the audience.

(This rule does not apply at festivals.)

[Tbone]

I've had real good luck with my schertler->ArtPRO Compressor/Limiter/EQ/Preamp->SWR California Blonde.

This was a high-spl environment, with electric guitars & basses & drums. To reduce feedback, I put some foam strips in my f-holes (hold the jokes, please) that did a real bang up job cutting the feedback, without making a difference in the tone.

Getting an electric mando wouldn't be a bad option, either.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Rekx,

Since this honky tonk band does this regularly, they're a pretty good place to go for guidance, esp.if any of the players uses an acoustic instrument with a pickup or microphone.

From your description, i'll bet that they either have their own PA system or are quite used to using the house system(s) where they play, so I'd suggest starting with a conversation with whomever runs the PA, whether it's a band member or someone who runs the PA for the venue.

And for folks who run the PA, as well as the players, good communications are really helpful. Sometimes folks get no love for their work doing this, and only hear -afterwards- from players if something wasn't right, so getting good communications going at the start can make good results much easier.

If everyone's on top of their game, cousin Ben has already told the band folk that you're going to join them and so the odds are that someone has thought about stuff like where you'll be on the stage and, I hope, how to get you into the band's house mix.

Committment to a mic &/or pickup/preamp involves (IMO) a series of choices best looked at for the long term. Whenever I've tried to do something like that based on just a few experiences I've had to go back and make revisions. A pickup and preamp will probably be the more versatile route, over time, but even tho I have nice pickup systems (that took a good while to sort out), I still prefer to use a mic when I can. And... yeah... I've also gone thru a bunch of different mic choices, too, over time... So that can be an ongoing project, too... ;-)

I hope this is useful.

stv

[rekx]

Hi guys...thanks for all of the great advice.

Background to my post: the concert is scheduled for the day after Christmas.

I have been to the venue and have seen my cousin perform there. It is actually a pretty big place. The dance floor prob. holds 150-200 people, and then there is the bar area, and upstairs/downstairs pool tables.

I am willing to spend a good bit of cash on this...no more than $1500 - I am hoping that my cousin will take me into the band full time.

Question - if I were to buy the Schertler DYN, would I still need the Baggs Para DI? Would I still need a pre-amp? Would it be prudent to purchase my own acoustic amp? How big of an amp would I need?

[Tim2723]

You won't need the preamp, but it will give you way more control and you might well be sorry if you don't include it. Since you've budgeted adequately, I would go for it.

In my neck of the woods there are no clubs that accomodate 200 dancers with bars and pool tables. That is much larger than anything I play. I still think you should ask your cousin what he uses for the job and go that way. A club of that size is out of my experience.

I'm very tempted to say you'll need something like the 300 watt Genz Benz or the big Fishman Loud Box. It sure ain't the kind of place for a 30 watt amp.

I gotta admire ya buddy. Going from noobie to major amplification in one big jump. Go for it!!!

[Tim2723]

Oh, and whatever you do, include ear protection in the budget, even if it means using something cheaper than the Schertler. The drunken, puking, dancing rowdies won't care as much about your 'perfect tone' as you will the next day when your hearing is damaged. I'm dead serious about that.

You're not in a concert hall, or a church, or a recording studio. To hell with perfect tone, protect yourself at all costs.

[mandroid]

FWIW Schertlers would be better into a dual channel amp with a Microphone channel.
or A mic Preamp as included in a small mixer,

since the output is already in an XLR format, better to have it stay as such..

[and headphone output to control your monitor level]

Amp as stage monitor, look for one with an output to the main mixer, on the back panel

though an in-ear monitor setup may help you hear yourself in the mix,
and not add to the Din of the other monitors on the floor, and
as Tim suggests , a controlled level of sound will protect your hearing.

... Eh?...

[Tbone]

I would recommend against getting a huge amp.

There's a PA, right? You'd be fine with a 20-50 watt amp, and just mic the amp through the PA.

If you're getting a schertler, the Baggs Para DI won't work, since its only got 1/4" inputs, and the schertler comes out with an XLR. That's why I use my ArtPRO pre/comp/EQ - XLR into the preamp, 1/4" out to the amp. Plus, my amp has a effects loop for all the pedals you could ever want.

[Tim2723]

Yeah, I wasn't really serious about the Genz Benz or the Fishman. Just making the point about being big and loud. But nothing said so far indicates there is a PA or house system to go through. This is why the band members with direct experience in the venue are critical.

And thanks Tbone for clarifying the point about the preamp. You'll need a preamp appropriate to the set up you have. All the talk about different gear can cause confusion.

[Steve1452]

I play in a situation like this on a regular basis. My advise is to use an acoustic amp and run a line out to the board. Set the amp close to you so that at least you can hear it.

[Jim Nollman]

I occasionally sit in with a very loud blues band in what i guess you'd call a "honky tonk" atmosphere. The gig gets really loud, with a bar filled to the brim with 100 dancers.

I own 3 nice sounding mandolins, 2 are acoustic. I also own a Schertler (see my Schertler thread here) which is brand new, and which I have only used publicly, so far, with my F scroll mandolin at contra dances, which lets me be heard clearly with 5 or 6 other acoustic instruments including a piano.

For that bar gig, I will always choose my Godin acoustic-electric running through an LR Baggs parametric, and straight into a Fishman Loudbox Performer which is 100 watts and weighs 23 pounds. In that setting, an acoustic instrument is too hard to control for feedback so why bother?

Two nice things about the Fishman: 1) It has a tunable tweeter, which lets the mandolin's crisp sound really develop nicely. In my own experience, after years of playing mandolin in many unique gigs, I have never yet found a guitar amp that can faithfully reproduce the mandolin's high end. The Fishman seems optimized for fiddle, and mandolin, maybe flute too. 2) It has an XLR output which means you can elevate it and place it directly behind your ears to use to design your tone and use as a personal monitor, then output this faithful tone into the house system. You definitely NEED to some ear plugs. Don't fudge on that.

I suppose any electric mandolin would work in this bar gig. However, I do have a problem with solid body mandolins, and/or magnetic pickups on a mandolin. Pickups over-accentuate the sound of the pick clicking against the strings. It adds a very unnatural attack to the tone, which at volume, can be the only thing you hear. Of course this can remedied if you are using certain outboard effects like huge reverb, huge compression, long delays, and general grunge fuzz.

While I always use a hard pick for acoustic gigs, I always use a soft pick at the Honky Tonk.

Hope this helps.

[rekx]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice. I think I have a bit of a clue now. I will post back and let everyone know how it goes!

[rekx]

Hey fellas...I wanted to check in and let you all know how it went. Wow...I underestimated how loud those drums are. The gig went well...I decided on the L.R Baggs combo. Frankly, I don't think the acoustic mandolin worked well with the drums and electric guitar. But, when my cousin and I played solo together, we sounded pretty good.

The whole experience gives me a new respect for mandolin players who play in full bands. I wonder what kind of setup Jeff Austin from Yonder Mountain String Band has?

Thanks again for the advice...I could not have done it without mandolincafe!

Here are some pics and banter: http://rekx.wordpress.com/2009/01/05...stmas-present/

[Tim2723]

Cool!! But what did you end up playing through? That is, what was the Baggs plugged into?

From your story, I get two impressions:

I shouldn't have backed off on my LoudBox recommendation (just kidding!)

You didn't get earplugs to protect yourself, did you? Now you know about earplugs. WHAT!?

[Mike Bunting]

Glad to hear it went well. Being on stage is always a rush. BTW, I checked out your website, very cool.

[rekx]

Tim2723> sorry....yes...the Baggs setup was plugged into the PA....there were also big onstage monitors.
Also, yes...you caught me...I was cavalier and didn't pack the earplugs....I paid for it.

[Stanley Cox]

Hey rekx, Way to go! You had a blast, and the audience had a blast. Keep it up.

Stanley