smallest possible monitors

[onassis]

So, my band is in the process of re-examining our PA situation. Whenever possible, we've gone to using a central LDC with a shotgun shell condenser on a gooseneck on each side for instruments, plus two soloing mics further to each side. The big issue we're facing now is monitors. We've been using a floor wedge and then a smaller, stand mounted "hot spot" type for the bass player, but some folks still seem to have trouble hearing themselves.
Personally, I hate the floor wedge. I was wondering if anyone has used or seen something even smaller than the "hot spot". I'm envisioning something like the tiny Bose home stereo speakers. We wouldn't need anything with any bass capacity, since that's going through an amp at the back of the stage. We've also been considering IE's, but that seems like a whole other level of complexity (and expense).
Anyone know of anything like this? Or, if not, what have you guys found to work well with an LDC setup?

[Jim]

How noisy an environment are you playing in? My experience is LDCs & monitors just don't work and you need to go to dynamic mics in close if you are in a situation where it is so noisy you can't hear yourself. IE monitors can work , but as you noted are expensive and some people just can't get comfortable with them. Why do you dislike your floor wedge? Sound quality, size , weight? I don't much care for hot spots but they will allow me to stay on key vocally. Good luck in your search.

[foldedpath]

What are you using for a floor wedge monitor now?

It might be an issue of monitor quality (some are much better than others!), or not having enough monitors to cover the group.

I haven't seen anything smaller than the Galaxy Hot Spots, Mackie SRM150, or (discontinued) TC Helicon VoiceSolo monitors. These are intended to mount on a mic stand, fairly close to individual performers as personal monitors on a mic stand. So they're not ideal for your application, unless you move to everyone having their own mic on a stand. Tiny speakers like Bose home stereo satellites, or anything else designed for home use, won't work. They won't be robust enough to handle uncompressed live audio, or occasional accidental feedback without blowing up.

If you want to stick with the LDC as the centerpiece mic, I think your best options are either moving to IEM's (and yes, that's expensive and complicated), or improving the quality, and possibly the number and placement of your floor wedges.

[onassis]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

We're currently using a pretty old powered JBL Eon as the floor wedge. I imagine we could get a better result by adding another wedge, but, honestly, one of my peeves is the aesthetic clutter of the big wedges in front of the stage set-up. Not much of a complaint, really, but it does bug me.

As far as environment goes, they run the gamut from outdoor farmer's markets to stone and glass winery halls with twenty foot ceilings. So, I guess I can either suck it up ans get used to the wedges, or get more serious about exploring IEM options. What are the biggest pitfalls to avoid in that area?

[oldwave]

In ears take a learning curve, excellent mixing skills and a size alb investment. Look into small full range powered speakers. I use Yamaha dxr8 on stands pointed back at the band. They work great. I also use in very small tight venues a pair of the old TC Electronics voice solos which can be found used. They are very powerful and can be used as floor monitors if the venue is relatively quiet. They sound really good.

[foldedpath]

If you wanted to stay with floor monitors, you can do better than old powered EON's. Our duo uses Electro-Voice ZX-A1 monitors, which are 8" main drivers in a compact and lightweight cabinet. Your problem might also be that you're using only one monitor. One or two more might provide better coverage for the band, since there is a limit to how wide the dispersion angle is, for a single monitor.

Regarding IEM's.... that's a big subject, and maybe some others can chime in here. I don't use them, for a reason I'll get to in a minute. Here are the main pitfalls:

It's not something you should consider without having a fairly substantial budget. Good IEM systems aren't cheap, good earbuds aren't cheap, and you may want custom molds. Each bandmember has to be totally onboard with the project, and ideally they should be prepared to buy their own earbuds to spread the cost (and because they aren't transferrable, especially with custom molds).

You'll probably want individual monitor mixes, which means you need one free AUX bus on your mixer for every band member. This might involve a mixer upgrade, if your current one doesn't have enough AUX busses.

You can save some money by going with a wired system instead of wireless, but you may have trouble with people stepping on the cables. Wired is really the way to go, but that adds a layer of complexity and cost. Also some uncertainties in the way the wireless field is going to shake out, in the next few years with narrowing bandwidths and increasing use of digital systems. It's not the best of times to be buying wireless audio gear.

IEM's work best when you have a dedicated monitor engineer to handle everyone's request for a personal mix. This can be a nightmare, if you're the person running the PA and also playing in the band. One way around it, is using one of the systems where every band member has their own little monitor mixer clamped to a mic stand. These can work well, but it's more gear clutter on stage, and I think it's a bit distracting for the audience.

Finally -- and this is the main reason I don't use IEM's -- you'll hear the band very well, but you'll be in an audio bubble, isolated from the audience. This can be helped a little by adding an outward-aimed audience mic patched into the monitor mix, but it's still a degree of isolation that some people can't get used to. In my case, our duo does a lot of wedding gigs, and I have to stay tuned in to what's going on around us. I need to hear cues for the processional, cues to quit playing for speeches, etc. If you value lots of audience interaction for whatever reason, IEM's might be a problem.

This is just a bare outline, and of course there are tremendous advantages in having to carry less gear to the gig, not worrying about feedback, and hearing yourself and the rest of the band clearly. But it's probably the last thing any band should work towards, after dialing in every other aspect of your PA setup.

[onassis]

Thanks again for the replies, especially the IEM breakdown, FP. The 8" models (EV ZX-A1, Yamaha dxr8) really intrigue me. The size seems so much less visually intrusive. The SRM-150 style units are also interesting, but would they work in a standard monitor configuration, i.e. at the front of the stage, fairly low down? Or do they need to be up and close, personal-monitor style? This is all for a standard 5 piece BG outfit, no super-noisy bar environments, but some acoustically challenging ones (tall ceilings, hard surfaces).

[TonyP]

My solution is not a popular one outside of the people I play with. Mainly because the general consensus is wedges(I which I totally hate) and hot spot type things on mic stands. Each with their own mix. I've never understood that thinking as I think in overall band sound. Like when we play acoustically, with each of us balancing by listening to each other. So having individual mixes just promotes needing a soundman and a less cohesive band sound in my experience.

Wedge/mains don't work IMHO(which I'll be shot down here quickly) because the typical horns mounted in the cabs are made to disperse horizontally when mounted vertically as mains on poles. So laid down as a wedge they are beaming a tight HF beam vertically, not horizontally. So not enough dispersion. I've never felt like they were pointing at my ears, more like over my head. Granted I am short, but still. They also have 10's, 12" and sometimes 15's which I don't think are necessary and only create more mud on stage.

So I use 2 SRM 150's with special drum hardware mounts, one on the back of each main speaker, aimed back at the band at head height. With everything below 700hz rolled off and the house mix. Just loud enough to balance with the low's radiating out of the mains. This also takes care of the clutter in front of the band, which I also don't like.

You could try this pretty easy with one more EON and a couple of stands. With the bottom end rolled off. I also use a dbx260 for eq and feedback busting.

[Jim]

My question when a person can't hear themselves in a stage mix is "what can you hear?". Perhaps what ever that is needs to be turned down. Individual monitor mixes are great if you have the equipment to do it and can certainly help with harmony vocals if a singer has problems with being pulled off key by another part, but I agree with TonyP that you are no longer hearing the "band sound" If you have a few hundred watts of monitor power on a stage with 4 or 5 guys and no instrument amps you should be able to hear everything. Sometimes , counter intuitive though it may be, turning it down can help everybody hear. Obviously eq can make a big difference in a boomy reflective room. Don't get me wrong I do hope you find light, small monitors. I use 10" Kustoms I've had forever or sometimes a small Behringer acoustic combo amp depending on size of group.

[Tim2723]

Here is the teeniest of weeniest powered monitors on the market today:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...ered-nano-spot

Before I waste your time and a bunch of electrons saying how to use it, let me know if it interests you in the first place.

[Samuel David Britton]

I play at church with IE monitors. I can't hear myself without them.

[Tim2723]

[QUOTE=Jim;1206030]My question when a person can't hear themselves in a stage mix is "what can you hear?". Perhaps what ever that is needs to be turned down. QUOTE]

Thank you.

[onassis]

Lots of great ideas. I'm really intrigued by the concept of the SRM150's mounted on the backs of the speaker stands. One of my main peeves with wedges is their size, adding to that wall-of-gear feel at the front of the stage set-up. My ideal PA rig would have minimal visual clutter, but that seems very difficult on a budget.

It'd be nice to tailor the monitor mix to remove aural clutter, but, unfortunately, our monitor feed is the same as the house. Not a bad thing, I think, in this sort of LDC set-up, since it lets you hear the house mix and adjust relative volume on the fly with proximity and positioning. But, unless we want to add a sub-mixer for the monitors and increase the complexity of the set-up, the mix is what it is.

[Tim2723]

Mitch, I have to agree. I know there are a lot of players who find the need to have a separate monitor mix, and that works for them. But for myself I've always found that if I need to change the monitor mix I'm putting a bandaid on something I've already done wrong.

[mandroid]

Galaxy has 16 ohm, you can daisy chain 2 0f them for 8 ohm or 8 for 4 ohm,
they sit on mic stands for vocal monitors . higher so singers can harmonize.

I got Carvin's PM5's also sit on Mic stands but they are 2 way 8 ohm
so are useful as monitors
or as I use them ... for using my mixer -amp to run them as regular audio ..
computer monitors.

good sound accuracy ..

[mandotim1955]

TC Helicon do a range of small powered monitors that integrate into a boom mic stand, and some models allow you some control over your own mix. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Helicon-Voic.../dp/B000NPCPRI I had a set of them a while ago, but sold them; they just didn't have the quality of sound I was looking for. We currently use RCF310A powered speakers as wedges, and these are superb, if perhaps a little bigger than you are looking for. I seem to remember they do 8" versions though. RCF drivers are well known for excellent definition, which is exactly what you need in monitors. I'm currently debating the idea of IEM with the band; we are moving to a digital desk (Behringer X32 Compact) with 8 aux outputs, so individual mixes are easy to do. IEMs are getting better, and decent quality kit is gradually getting cheaper, as with most things in electronics, but most of them come with horrid earbuds; it's worth investing in good ones. The audience mic is a good idea; I've used a crossed stereo pair of small condensers with good results.

[Dagger Gordon]

Does anyone prefer not using monitors at all?

[Tim2723]

Does anyone prefer not using monitors at all?

I do. In fact, I'll go out of my way as much as possible to avoid them whenever I can. The ability to go without monitors was a large part of my descision to go with the Bose towers and they have kept their promise every time. No monitors ever except when I play very large halls when I use the larger tower out front like a conventional speaker and back-line the smaller unit as a monitor. But that's neither traditional monitoring nor is it the recommended setup according to Bose.

Even when I used my small conventional PA (2x10", 200 watts) I would simply toe-in the mains. My larger conventional system had monitors, but they were always a struggle even under the best conditions. Monitors are a necessary evil in my book.

[Toni Schula]

Does anyone prefer not using monitors at all?

Yes definitely.
But in real life this is not always possible.

My favourite gigs are in especially quiet situations with the audience just sitting and listening like in a theatre or opera (I mean the real old opera not the grand ole opry). In this case we use a LDC just a tiny bit for the voices. Just enough so we don't need to shout to match the instruments.

The second best gigs are those in small venues with a Bose L1 right behind us as the PA or with traditional PA speakers mounted behind and high above us. This again requires a rather silent small venue.

And then there is the usual gig with the usual floor wedges and the usual issues with these. Especially if the sound is done by a sound guy who is very experienced with electric bands it often is a nightmare. These boys tend to start with the easy instruments. They make guitar with pickup and bass so loud that they fail when it comes to miced violin and mandolin. When running the sound ourselves it is usually o.k. Or at least somewhat o.k ;-)

[Tim2723]

I never really thought about it, but that's exactly what they do wrong in my experience as well. They start with the guitar and bass then have nowhere to go with the less familiar instruments.

[foldedpath]

Does anyone prefer not using monitors at all?

It depends on the situation. The last several wedding gigs for our "Celtic Lite" duo used no monitors, just bleed from the main speakers (QSC K10's). These were mostly outdoor setups, although in one case we were indoors in a large barn with a second PA rig after playing outdoors for the ceremony. Conversation levels were low, so we didn't have any trouble hearing ourselves with just a little edge bleed off the FOH speakers. These speakers have a 90 degree dispersion angle, so there isn't much loss in audience coverage with one or both toed-in slightly towards us.

With these types of gigs, the ambient noise level is so low that we don't need much additional support for monitoring. Just a little bass reinforcement on the guitar, and a light touch of reverb/delay for sweetening (especially outdoors). It also helps that we're just a duo, so the only other instrument I need to hear is right next to me. It would be different in a larger band, where I might not hear someone at the other end of the band lineup. Or if we had a drummer.

Now, if it was a restaurant or bar, or a more raucous private party with high conversation levels and lousy acoustics, I'd be using our EV ZXA-1 monitor. Or two or three ZXA-1's if we're in an expanded lineup with a guest artist or two. The last time we played in a bar, we definitely needed those monitors.

Here's another consideration: Our duo does instrumental music (although there's an alternate bluesier version where the guitar player sings). I think when there is a singer in the band, monitoring becomes more critical. It allows working the mic for proximity effect; getting a "bigger then life" tone. It's a confidence-booster, especially for those of us with less than stellar vocal chops off the mic. Singing dry with no monitors, or just FOH edge bleed, is more difficult than having a good in-your-face (or in-your-ears) monitor system.

So the answer, as always, is... it depends.

[Paul Kotapish]

Does anyone prefer not using monitors at all?

Absolutely. My experience is that--with some important exceptions--monitors tend to create just as many problems as they solve.

Getting by without them is contingent on several conditions from the band and from the venue:

1) The band delivers a natural blend and balance of instruments and voices in the absence of any amplification
2) Everyone plays instruments that both project well and are loud enough under the ear--not always the same--to be heard acoustically on stage
3) The singers are a good match in terms of volume and can balance harmonies acoustically
4) The band sets up on stage in a reasonably tight formation and faces one another slightly. This is always a compromise with filling the stage and facing the audience, but it can be done with even a fairly large ensemble.
5) Everyone in the band is on the same page about volume levels
6) If--a really big "if"--the venue is not ridiculously noisy and the audience is reasonably quiet
7) If--another really big "If"--the sound for the front of house is really well balanced, stable, and matches the acoustic sound of the band

Loads of reasons that the conditions above can fall apart such as mismatched acoustic balance of instruments or voices, a preference for spreading out across a big stage, load bar or festival conditions, etc., but when the above conditions are all well met, I really prefer eliminating the monitors and just listening to the acoustic sound of the instruments melded with the house mix.

[TonyP]

By logical extension, I'd rather not use a PA at all. And like FP I scale up and down depending on situation. Knowing your venue is the first part of the battle. And I do see it as a battle because I'd love to just go in and play and not deal with checking the gear, then loading the gear I think I'll need(including backups) then setting up and inevitable weird glitches that happen every time. And that's before we even try to set levels.

You can have a fairly quiet small room but you throw in a wall of glass or mirrors and you've got chaos without monitors. Some folks don't seem to care or be messed up by it but the first thing to go it tight rhythm and then everybody gets distracted. Then it can turn into a slippery slide from there.

Like FP said, it's all about confidence. I tend to be shy of the mic when I can't hear what's going on in the house. And the folks I play with seem to be the same way. But when we have just enough monitors let you know when you are in the mic or not everything just works. But monitors are far and away the hardest part of doing sound and definitely a double edged sword.

I do like Jim said and am from now on going to use that line. And like Tim said, whatever they CAN hear, I'm going to turn down. I love simplicity, but it's too easy to get distracted by complication.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I do. In fact, I'll go out of my way as much as possible to avoid them whenever I can. The ability to go without monitors was a large part of my descision to go with the Bose towers and they have kept their promise every time. No monitors ever except when I play very large halls when I use the larger tower out front like a conventional speaker and back-line the smaller unit as a monitor. But that's neither traditional monitoring nor is it the recommended setup according to Bose.

Even when I used my small conventional PA (2x10", 200 watts) I would simply toe-in the mains. My larger conventional system had monitors, but they were always a struggle even under the best conditions. Monitors are a necessary evil in my book.

Actually, it sounds like monitors are sometimes an UNnecessary evil in your book.
I'm curious about your Bose set up. It sounds like you sometimes position the tower(s) behind you. Doesn't that cause instant feedback?
I've only used a borrowed Bose tower system (the $1K model) a couple of times. I got no instructions on how to use it. I thought it did a good job, pleny of sound for such a small, portable system. I never considered putting it behind me though. Can you do that?
(maybe I'm misreading your post.)

[Tim2723]

Nope, you read it right. Placing the tower behind and slightly to the side of the player is the intended way to use the design. It's counter intuitive and very much contrary to all conventional wisdom, but the Bose towers are not conventional PAs. But most players, myself included, place their tower to the side and just a little behind them (basically standing beside it), not to control feedback but just because standing in front of it is uncomfortably loud. It can feedback as all speakers can, but the problem is very slight. As with just about every musical product, musicians have started using the towers in ways never designed for, including LDC microphones in the single-mic Bluegrass configuration which would be difficult to control, so a lot of users have moved away from the original 'behind and to the side' setup Bose designed for.

Originally the tower was intended to be used by only one musician singing into a dynamic mic and playing and acoustic-electric or solid body instrument or keyboard. Every person in the band would have their own tower standing (ideally) seven feet behind and seven feet to the side of each performer. But that quickly proved both too expensive for most and impractical for tight quarters.

Feedback occurs with the Bose tower most often because players try to cover much larger rooms than recommended. The 200 watt Compact model (that you used) is for 100 people and does only as much as any 200 watt PA will do. I also have the larger 800 watt tower and it replaces my 800 watt conventional PA, but not anything more than that. Trying to feed a crowd of 300 with a Compact System is a recipe for feedback, but if you tried to run a 200 watt conventional system that hard it would be a handful to manage as well. When I play to very large rooms - more than the 500 recommended for the 800 watt tower - I place the big tower out front like a regular speaker and let it scream over the crowd and use the small Compact unit behind and to the side as a "monitor".