The Jam is Dead, Long Live the Jam

[GRW3]

Tonight, for the first time in years there is no Tuesday jam. After a near decade of hosting jams our venue pulled the plug. This local chain hosted jams at a couple of locations. Seems like somebody posted a YouTube from the other spot. The music Nazis saw it and came down hard.

I have a real sense of loss. So I have done the only logical thing - come up to my music room and put Kris Kristofferson's "Me and Bobby McGee" LP on the record player. (Yes real vinyl.) Most nights I have a glass of wine to take the edge off. This is a whiskey night.

The group leader said it was the IBMA that came down on us but I haven't heard of them doing it. I would guess it's the usual Charles Fox agency activity. It would seem out of place for IBMA, rooted deeply in jam culture. I would bet bluegrass jam participants would be way out there at the 99th percentile for bluegrass album ownership. (At over 200 Bluegrass and closely related LPs and CDs, out of 500+, I'm out there at 99.999+) It's also the place where upcoming appearances are often discussed, the only PR a Bluegrass band will get in these parts.

They're be a new jam, it's inevitable, but it will be different. Some players will be lost, some new ones will take their place. Old favorites will be forgotten, new tunes will become favorites. For everything there is a season...

[rippeymandos]

Um......again just an amateur on this s(Duff)....,,but
Years ago we(myself and the talented Fatman, aka Travis Barner) had amassed quite a following at our normal gig on Sunday night in our little town. The venue received a letter because we were indeed playing covers and traditionals. The venue confronted us about it.......our option was, we had nothing, if they sued us, what would they get.......and whose coming to the middle of Bumf&$@? Egypt to claim there nothing....... We continued. Nothing happened. They send those to get profit from fear.

[Bill Snyder]

Since someone said IBMA it is a fair guess they meant BMI. BMI along with ASCAP collect and payout royalties and "police" performances of live and recorded music.

[allenhopkins]

Either ASCAP or BMI. If a venue sponsors performances of licensed material, it's legally obliged to obtain a license from these organizations. "Performances" can include playing licensed music through an in-house sound system, as well as broadcasts, concerts, even jams or sing-arounds, if public access is allowed. There are exemptions for churches, perhaps others -- dunno.

Many places violate or ignore these requirements; ASCAP/BMI can't be everywhere, can't go after every neighborhood bar or Legion post. A higher public profile leads to more exposure. How many times are these warning letters followed by actual legal action? Again, dunno.

License fees are to some extent based on venue size, number of performances, admission charged -- so they may not be so high as to preclude obtaining one. However, a small venue will often decide not to risk it. Two sides to the issue -- composers should get paid for use of their work, but small, often non-profit venues need to be able to host music.

[TheBlindBard]

--Wow, that's truly terrible that happened to you
In the end, everybody just wants to get paid, sadly.
On the other hand, stuff like this really enrages me and make me glad I decided that when I started, I would go into traditional irish--watch them try and copyright those tunes.

[Bertram Henze]

...traditional irish--watch them try and copyright those tunes.

Indeed. I have seen a video once of a tune that was a 95% copy of a traditional tune but was copyrighted by its "composer" , but it was a singular encounter and there has been no follow-up. This is a culture of people who learned to hide their stills, their living and their very language from bureaucrats for centuries, after all.

[Bernie Daniel]

Tonight, for the first time in years there is no Tuesday jam. After a near decade of hosting jams our venue pulled the plug. This local chain hosted jams at a couple of locations. Seems like somebody posted a YouTube from the other spot. The music Nazis saw it and came down hard.

I have a real sense of loss. So I have done the only logical thing - come up to my music room and put Kris Kristofferson's "Me and Bobby McGee" LP on the record player. (Yes real vinyl.) Most nights I have a glass of wine to take the edge off. This is a whiskey night.

The group leader said it was the IBMA that came down on us but I haven't heard of them doing it. I would guess it's the usual Charles Fox agency activity. It would seem out of place for IBMA, rooted deeply in jam culture. I would bet bluegrass jam participants would be way out there at the 99th percentile for bluegrass album ownership. (At over 200 Bluegrass and closely related LPs and CDs, out of 500+, I'm out there at 99.999+) It's also the place where upcoming appearances are often discussed, the only PR a Bluegrass band will get in these parts.
They're be a new jam, it's inevitable, but it will be different. Some players will be lost, some new ones will take their place. Old favorites will be forgotten, new tunes will become favorites. For everything there is a season...

Sounds like a real downer! Sorry to hear it happened -- it is nice to have a regular high spot in the week.
There are several places in my area that host monthly BG jams -- of course most of the material played at these gatherings are the "classic" tunes and more rarely some of more popular recently tunes from records. Actually very few original tunes come up. So I suppose these business would be subject to the same treatment if someone tipped of the organization that caused the grief there in Texas -- and probably these places would respond the same way i.e., to stop hosting the jams.

Of course no money (as far as I know) is being made at these jams -- not by the pickers anyway. But I was just thinking while I read the OP -- how are these jams different from the ones that happen at any night around hundreds of campfires and RV's at nearly every BG festival in the US?

At least you had a valid reason to down a little whiskey.

[Bernie Daniel]

Indeed. I have seen a video once of a tune that was a 95% copy of a traditional tune but was copyrighted by its "composer" , but it was a singular encounter and there has been no follow-up. This is a culture of people who learned to hide their stills, their living and their very language from bureaucrats for centuries, after all.

Much easier to get way with on tunes than songs clearly -- can you imaging trying that with "Highway of Sorrow"?

[Eric C.]

Our Sunday Jam hosts had to pick up a BMI license. It was under $200.00 Not too much to pay if you enjoy live music. What I am not sure of is whether that is a yearly or one-time fee.

The BMI "agent" they sent in was a real ....... What the owners of the establishment did do after running that fella off was contact BMI, enter information, seating, etc. and even talked with someone else from BMI. Now that I think of it, it was much closer to $100.00 than 200.

[Ed Goist]

Eric; thanks for sharing this information.
I'll now be sure to enhance my patronage of our great hosts the next time I attend a Sunday jam.
It is an awesome venue, and they are wonderful hosts.
I want to be sure to "pay my fair share" of that license fee.

[Jim Garber]

We have our 3 year old or so old time monthly jam at an old farmhouse that a school rents. They love us and will prob move soon but they said they want us to come with them which we will prob do. The other jam we have up here, run by a good friend, is in a cultural center where they have all sorts of concerts and art-related activity. The bluegrass club our way also runs jam in public buildings rather than bars or restaurants.

[Bernie Daniel]

Our Sunday Jam hosts had to pick up a BMI license. It was under $200.00 Not too much to pay if you enjoy live music. What I am not sure of is whether that is a yearly or one-time fee.

The BMI "agent" they sent in was a real ....... What the owners of the establishment did do after running that fella off was contact BMI, enter information, seating, etc. and even talked with someone else from BMI. Now that I think of it, it was much closer to $100.00 than 200.

So did the establishment just suck up this fee or did they pass it on -- say a few bucks per attendee for each session? Sounds like it is an annual payment required?

[JeffD]

I have the scars from this battle from when I used to run a coffeehouse. But it was all performance related. I would have thought a jam would be a totally different thing.

When I hit the lottery I will spend half the money on legal fees sorting this issue out for one and all. The other half I'll spend on over the top great mandolins, of course.

[Tobin]

I have the scars from this battle from when I used to run a coffeehouse. But it was all performance related. I would have thought a jam would be a totally different thing.

My guess is that the driving force behind this is bloodthirsty lawyers who refuse to allow a business to profit from such music without paying their fees. Whether it's profit directly from the performance, or indirectly from patrons buying food at a restaurant while watching an informal jam. As long as it's a business (as opposed to a church or someone's basement), they'll go after it.

[MandoTyro]

Gee, would they come after a church running a coffeehouse?

What is the criteria for a venue being 'non-compliant'?

[terzinator]

Same BMI/ASCAP thing happened to a jam we used to have at a local coffeehouse... I ranted about it a couple of years back on the UMGF.

Here's the thread, if you like to click on stuff.

[Bertram Henze]

In mad times like these, I contemplate reading W.B. Yeats again:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

[jaycat]

Our Sunday Jam hosts had to pick up a BMI license. It was under $200.00 Not too much to pay if you enjoy live music. What I am not sure of is whether that is a yearly or one-time fee. . . .

So, does that mean you now have to check to see which songs you play are licensed by BMI, and which ones are ASCAP (and not play the latter?)

[jaycat]

In mad times like these, I contemplate reading W.B. Yeats again:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

I wouldn't go quite that far. Somehow I don't think he was worrying about paying licensing fees.

[terzinator]

What the licensing agencies often do, I'm told, is check the web for coffeehouses/bars/whatever that schedule live music, and then check if those venues are ASCAP/BMI members. If not, they go to the venue and see what is being played.

If they hear covers, they'll notify the venue that they need to pay the royalty fees. The amount is based on size of venue (or number of people in the "audience") and the number of days per week/month/year they have live music. I don't think they care if it's a jam or a performance. They treat it the same.

We offered to our host coffeehouse that we'd take up a collection each week to pay for the fees (not from the listeners, but from jammers), but they just decided to shut the whole thing down.

There was one bar in town that insisted on NO COVERS. They made you bring in your setlist ahead of time, annotated with information about the origin of the songs. They had to be originals or traditional or in the public domain. They kept these setlists on file if they ever got a visit from the royalty folks.

Turned out to be a massive headache, so they just decided to pay the fees. As a band, we don't get much for playing there, but it's a great venue. (Or maybe it has nothing to do with ASCAP/BMI! Maybe we don't get paid very much because we stink!)

Anyway, I understand that it's the responsibility of the VENUE to pay the fee. Not the performer.

[Leon Peoples]

Tonight, for the first time in years there is no Tuesday jam. After a near decade of hosting jams our venue pulled the plug. This local chain hosted jams at a couple of locations. Seems like somebody posted a YouTube from the other spot. The music Nazis saw it and came down hard.

I have a real sense of loss. So I have done the only logical thing - come up to my music room and put Kris Kristofferson's "Me and Bobby McGee" LP on the record player. (Yes real vinyl.) Most nights I have a glass of wine to take the edge off. This is a whiskey night.

The group leader said it was the IBMA that came down on us but I haven't heard of them doing it. I would guess it's the usual Charles Fox agency activity. It would seem out of place for IBMA, rooted deeply in jam culture. I would bet bluegrass jam participants would be way out there at the 99th percentile for bluegrass album ownership. (At over 200 Bluegrass and closely related LPs and CDs, out of 500+, I'm out there at 99.999+) It's also the place where upcoming appearances are often discussed, the only PR a Bluegrass band will get in these parts.

They're be a new jam, it's inevitable, but it will be different. Some players will be lost, some new ones will take their place. Old favorites will be forgotten, new tunes will become favorites. For everything there is a season...

Your Jam leader is mistaken, it was ASCAP.
joe

[JeffD]

What the licensing agencies often do, I'm told, is check the web for coffeehouses/bars/whatever that schedule live music, and then check if those venues are ASCAP/BMI members. If not, they go to the venue and see what is being played.
.

I am not convinced they go to the venue. When, (and this is some time ago), I asked them when and what songs they heard they would not respond. They counted on my coffeehouse not knowing each and every tune being played, which of course we didn't.

In any case its pretty likely that something they owned was played at some point, so I think they just get the address and notify the venue.

I know of a jam locally held at a gift shop that was shut down recently.


Like I said, when I hit the lottery...

[jambalaya]

what complete nonsense. if someone's making money off the song, fine, but if it's just for fun the artists should be proud others like their song enough to play it. greed in action and nothing else. sorry that happened to y'all. just my $.02

[mandroid]

the feeble Jam , here, has shifted to the Senior Center , as a Non Profit ,
Perhaps it does not attract attention

and those folks .. usually singing like 50's country songs,...

rather than 60s and later hit songs ..

like a business, selling food and beverages, might.

[Eric C.]

So did the establishment just suck up this fee or did they pass it on -- say a few bucks per attendee for each session? Sounds like it is an annual payment required?

They just cover it.