Just to say +1 on the "get it repaired": broken headstocks are common, and unless they're a complete mess of splinters easy enough to repair. Don't go with anyone who mentions epoxy though, it has no place here!
Just to say +1 on the "get it repaired": broken headstocks are common, and unless they're a complete mess of splinters easy enough to repair. Don't go with anyone who mentions epoxy though, it has no place here!
No advice here, but my sympathies. Years ago I owned a beloved Gurian Sr3 guitar. Had traded a Martin D35 for it in a New York minute after first hearing the Gurian. Anyway, I left the guitar on my bed one day to make a quick bathroom break only to hear a few seconds later the sound of it falling off the bed and snapping the headstock clean off. My not-yet-a-toddler son, whom I had been entertaining had reached it while navigating his walker close to the bed. The guitar was never the same and I learned an expensive but valuable lesson. In your hands, on a stand, or in the case. No exceptions. My sincerest sympathies. I've dealt with Weber, have them fix it if you really love that mandolin.
Michael Carr
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
Bernie
____
Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Plenty of sound insurance advice already. I live by 'Not in hand, in case. Period.'
I do agree this break will probably be repairable.
First it could be glued up and then 1/8" milled off the entire back side of the headstock up to an inch or two past the nut into the neck (not to expose the truss) -- then this area can be filled in with fresh maple piece and which can be re-carved back to the right shape. This way you have the layer of fresh wood over the break. This was done on a mando I had and I think it ended up being as good as new.
And hey, not to start another big "glue discussion" Tavy but I can tell you that one of the very best luthiers at Gibson told me personally that he often uses good epoxy glue to fix breaks like that. I know many luthiers do like to work with HHG and that is their professional call -- but to say that epoxy has no place here is probably incorrect. Its a reasonable way to go I think.
Bernie
____
Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Hate to hear stories like this.
The only advice I can offer anyone - get PROPER INSTRUMENT insurance. I have an instrument policy with Clarion. Costs me about $20 per month, and insures me for up to 25k worth of instruments. Covers them if someone else borrowed it to use professionally and it got dropped and shattered. Covers it if I sit on it. Covers it if I dropped it down the stage. Covers all my instruments for full replacement value under any conditions EXCEPT if the damage was caused by improper humidification.
I had a National Style "N". Placing it in a stand and one of the Waverly's (3 on a plate) bumped the end of a book case. Very slight bend to the shaft. It still functioned, but was awkward to say the least. The insurance payed for the replacement of the entire set so they would match.
Moral: take GREAT care of your instruments, but insure them properly (not just home owners, it rarely covers properly) so that when an accident happens, you can hopefully get the repair or instrument you need to get you back up and running.
Just my .02 for today.
Yes, an insurance company should collect premiums - not pay claims. I mean, they are in business to make money, right?Shouldn't the fiddle player pay for this...not the insurance company?
Seriously, just to reiterate others, your best bet is to make a claim with the fiddle players homeowner's insurance. You will likely have a deductible making a claim under your own policy, but that shouldn't be the case with the fiddler's liability coverage. And it doesn't have to be that adversarial with the fiddle player. The simplest thing to do is to write a letter to the fiddler stating your claim and asking him to turn the letter over to his carrier. That's pretty much the extent of the fiddle player's involvement (usually). But give him a heads up first to explain the formality of the letter. In fact, invite him over for a six pack and have him help you write it.
Bobby Bill
You should mount the broken off head on the wall over the sofa, so it stares forlornly at your fiddle player whenever he comes by.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
Send it to John Hamlett. He's a genius when it comes to broken headstocks.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...6-An-F2-repair
PJ Doland
1923 Gibson Snakehead A
I have a question for those posters who said that epoxy has no place in mandolin repair . . . . why not? What have you got against epoxy?
So chi sono.
Very sorry to hear about the accident. I have left mine in the easy chair and immediately realize that I could sit on it. So I always put it back in case, and close the latches. That is another accident waiting to happen, an instrument in its case, where it should be, but with all the latches open. I agree...attempt a pro glue job first. In mando related questions, always ask yourself...what would Big Mon do?
My sympathy. That kind of stuff is traumatic. My Kimble got run over last year, but after the insurance dust settled, and a little extra cash, I ended up with another Kimble (an F this time). For me, when all was said and done, it worked out really well. I don't know if it had anything to do with it, by my insurance agent is at least a good acquaintance, and he seemed to "go to bat for me". I ended up paying the deductible on my home owners policy, so got a rider for the new one. Nothing new to add about repairs. I hope you've found a way to not be mad at your friend. They make lots of mandolins, but friends can be harder to come by. Good luck, Bill
My experience with a neck replacement is very limited but in my experience as long as the body does not have to be taken apart I wouldn't worry too much about the tone changing dramatically.
As for the difference in the Absaroka model vs the Yellowstone A, in the beginning I think it was a essentially just a renaming of the models. However at some point it seemed to me that Weber underwent changes in their construction techniques, and I think that that later models are a real improvement. I have never played an Absaroka that holds up to the current product, at least for my taste in tone. If you discover that insurance will replace your instrument you might consider it.
There is a prejudice against epoxy, which I also find strange. The best answer I know is that if you make a mistake, you can't take it apart. Which is true enough.
There is also something about epoxy's structural strength and end fibers, which was new info to me. That's a very good point, too.
Other complaints: it's messy, it's toxic, it has a short working time ... just seem silly to me. Especially when compared to Holy Hide Glue. But it's true that if you aren't really confident, epoxy is not for you.
On the other hand, for a structural break? Whoever recommended epoxy and inlaid reinforcement--that's what I'd do.
Brad, I don't mean any offence by this but if I had to weigh the expert opinion of a Lawyer against the expert opinion of an experienced Luthier with regard to the repair of a broken mandolin headstock, notwithstanding the aforementioned lawyer's not inconsequential experience building instruments, the scales would undoubtedly fall heavily on the side of the...
HHG everytime - epoxy is a poxy proxy. ...unless of course you intend it for gluing in the CF splines.
Last edited by Pete Jenner; Feb-18-2013 at 1:35pm.
I didn't say no place in mandolin repair, I said no place (probably) for that repair - or to put it another way, use the correct glue for the job. If a neck break is a clean break, then one of the wood glues - whether HHG or (heretic suggestion coming up) titebond original is the way to go. On the other hand... if you needed to reglue a carbon fibre insert or something, then epoxy every time.
Only possible exception to the rule, is if it's a nasty jagged break that won't go back together cleanly - epoxy can do what no wood glue can do and span gaps. But... even in that case, I think I'd rather insert new wood than trust to epoxy... but that may just be me. Either way, a photo of the damage is worth a thousand words... and I'm sure either Weber or one of the other regular luthiers here could do a first rate job.
If it turns out Weber can't or won't do the repair, I'd take it to Gary Wagner or Paul Stroh here in Seattle.
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I am an insurance lawyer, and WA is one of the states I practice in; my main state, actually. If the owner has a policy of insurance that covers this instrument, that is the easiest way to go. That is what is called first party insurance. The insurance company will take care of the damages, subject to a deductible, and if it thinks that there is a valid third party claim against the fiddle player, will seek what is called "subrogation" from the fiddle player. If the fiddle player has third party insurance (commonly called "liability coverage," for example on a homeowner's policy) then they may seek subrogation from that insurer instead of from the fiddle player directly.
In this case the owner put the instrument in a place where he knew or should have known someone would sit down, so at the very least he is likely comparatively at fault (WA is a "pure comparative fault" state, which means that each party is only responsible for its own share of negligence without any bars to recovery. Thus in WA if the OP is 90% at fault, he can still collect the 10% of fault from the fiddle player. Contrast Oregon which has what is called a "modified comparative negligence fault" scheme, which means that if the OP were 50% or more at fault, he could not collect. Thus in OR if the OP were 49% at fault he could collect 51% of the damages from the fiddle player, but if the OP were 51% at fault he would be barred from collecting anything. Compare further some east coast states which are "contributory negligence" states, which means that if the OP had any percentage of fault, he could not collect at all. Thus is some states if the OP is 1% at fault he is legally barred from getting any recovery, even though the other guy is 99% responsible for the damages). This would lessen the recovery potential from the at-fault party, and may in fact make it unworth the effot it would take to get recovery. In that case they can just let sleeping dogs lie, pay the claim and be done with it. To summarize: The OP could make an insurance claim for the whole value, because he has a contract with the insurance company to pay first party damages, but the most the insurance company could seek from the fiddle player is the share of his negligence. So if the Weber is worth $1,200 and each party is 50% at fault, the insurer pays the OP $1,200 less any deductible, and has a right against the fiddle player for $600. If the fiddle player has HO coverage, his insurer pays $600 and everything is done.
Alternatively the OP may seek compensation directly from the fiddle player in a third party claim, subject to the rules above. In my practice people follow up with first party insurers much more frequently as that is often the path of least resistance. But very often if there is a high deductible, or if the OP is pissed at the fiddle player, that is when the third party claims start. So if the OP has a $1K deductible on a $1,200 instrument, making a first party insurance claim would probably not be worth it. Alternatively if the OP has an instrument rider on his homeowner's policy which provides full replacement coverage without deductible - as I do - then a first party claim is probably easier.
In WA if a first party claim is sought, and if the OP's insurer sought subrogation and got some money back, it would have to pay the OP's deductible back from that recovery. However with the above facts if all the insurer paid was $200 (because of a $1K deductible on an instrument with a replacement value of $1,200), that is the most it would legally be allowed to subrogate from the fiddle player. Under those facts, there is not much hope of recovery for the OP absent a third party claim directly against the fiddle player.
this can be further complicated by the type of coverage purchased. If the OP only purchased actual cash value coverage, he may be out of luck if the ACV is less than the deductible. On the other hand if a replacement value policy was purchased, there may be a potential for some payment in a first party claim.
Last edited by Gregory Tidwell; Feb-18-2013 at 2:29pm. Reason: tweaking
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