Why did bluegrass come to dominate American string band music?

[SincereCorgi]

I was at a jam yesterday, and I played a little with a few older guys who I'd classify as hardcore bluegrassers- they play fast and hard and know all the repertoire and all the LPs and between songs they reminisce about defunct music festivals from the '60s that had rugged, outdoorsy names.

Now, I like that stuff, but I like old Roy Acuff and Carter Family a little better, and it got me wondering: why did all the other string band music from the '20-'40s gradually modernize itself and fade away to become 'country and western', while bluegrass started spawning festivals and countless imitators in matching shirts?

[mandroid]

Ah the 'Why' question .. any Academic papers written on that topic ? Vanderbuilt, U of Ky?

[catmandu2]

Ah the 'Why' question .. any Academic papers written on that topic ? Vanderbuilt, U of Ky?

Well, "why" is a good question ; )

why did all the other string band music from the '20-'40s gradually modernize itself and fade away to become 'country and western', while bluegrass started spawning festivals and countless imitators in matching shirts?

I'm confused; aren't these two opposing trends? ("modernize" and "fade away"..?). "Modernization" does tend to change things...certainly in music, we see it vividly. Seems that (even now) you can get a job playing C&W (or "classic" rock) all day long, but playing acoustic "folk" music...not so much*

*although in places like the college town where I live, acoustic folk bands do get gigs at the clubs too--probably disproportionately moreso than in more rural areas...but only uptown. The key difference, still, is: "can I dance to it?" In outlying areas--from what I understand--it's only C (&W) and rock

[John Ritchhart]

I guess the same reason Doowop morphed into Rap and so on culminating into last night's half time show. Some great milestones like Bluegrass (and Doowop in my opinion) are positive, but not all change is good.

[OldSausage]

Oh, I'm not going to go there.

[mandroid]

Just thought Graduate dissertations, on the history, would have footnotes , references, ..

Personal opinions, less researched, are abundant.. I've got a couple myself..

[John Ritchhart]

You're right David, i'm on thin ice with that one.

[catmandu2]

...last night's half time show

I missed it ; (

[sgarrity]

You may not have seen it, but you damn sure didn't miss anything!

[mandroid]

It was More Hollywood Music Video/ Las Vegas Casino show , But with a bigger Budget.

[John Ritchhart]

Just thought Graduate dissertations, on the history, would have footnotes , references, ..

Personal opinions, less researched, are abundant.. I've got a couple myself..

You're right of course. There are several good books on the evolution of Bluegrass but I'm not sure anyone has attempted to answer why. I imagine Ralph and Bill were asking why when Elvis came along.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Now, I like that stuff, but I like old Roy Acuff and Carter Family a little better, and it got me wondering: why did all the other string band music from the '20-'40s gradually modernize itself and fade away to become 'country and western',...

It definately didn´t. The old time music (think Bollick Bros., Wade Mainer´s Mountaineers, Doc Boggs, Morris Bros [Let Me Be Your Salty Dog] and many others) were virtualy nonexistent after the 30ies. Doc Boggs worked as a miner until he was "rediscovered" in the 60ies. This goes for numerous others. The Morris Bros. who gave Earl Scruggs a start in the 40ies were having a body shop in the 70ies. The old timers just didn´t modernize into the George Straits and Joe Diffies of the nineties.

It just seems to me that the bluegrassers are just so hard boiled that they (we) are dedicated enough to play the music not caring about people turning into Carrie Underwoods.

Apart from that, reading up upon the development of all forms of country music is an interesting task. It takes long hours and some intense musical study to sort out cajun, blues, folk, polka, swing, jazz, honkytonk and all sorts of sidelined musical thingies to get anywhere.

... while bluegrass started spawning festivals and countless imitators in matching shirts?

This goes especially for bands like the Seldome Scene, The Grasscals, and a lot many others.

[Mike Bunting]

You may not have seen it, but you damn sure didn't miss anything!

Did you watch it? Oh, Shaun, Shaun!

[JeffD]

Has it dominated American string band music?

I don't know. It looks that way from the inside, but from the outside I am not so sure.

I wonder. Certainly it is the well defined branch of string band music. You can point to it and you don't have to even be a musician to recognize it. Its what you see from a mile away. (My non musical friends think anything with a banjo is bluegrass.)

But one can go to the old time section of this very forum and find lists of tunes, lists of bands and CDs, lists of festivals. Old time is far from dead.



There is a video documentary called "Why Old Time" which defines and discusses old time music, and contrasts it with bluegrass. The point of view is from outside bluegrass, obviously, and perhaps a little too overstated, but it is interesting nonetheless. In the view of many of the old time enthusiasts interviewed in that documentary bluegrass is an outgrowth of old time music that has become "commoditized", or "branded", or "corporatized" at the least standardized. There are specific instruments to be played in specific ways, etc. One knows what to expect when getting bluegrass. There are super stars of the genre.

This is to contrast bluegrass with old time, from which bluegrass and country came, and what ostensibly is (according to these interviewees) a more organic coelescence of a lot of different influences mushed together, more democratic, more homemade music, no stars, not as much hero worship, few who make any money from it, less emphasis on the musicians and more emphasis on the music.

Old time is the meal. Bluegrass is the happy meal: burgers, fries and a coke.


Again, its someone's ideas. I can find counter examples of all of this, and also truth in all of this. I am singularly not willing to argue it either way.

But if there is a grain of truth in it, it would explain how bluegrass appears to dominate American string band music. Its the recognizable brand. Its the soup in the can. Its what you see, from a mile away.


Just some thoughts to kick around while I run for cover.

[catmandu2]

Just thought Graduate dissertations, on the history, would have footnotes , references, ..

Personal opinions, less researched, are abundant.. I've got a couple myself..

Well, okay. But I might like to hear your opinion--who knows, you may have an interesting insight or an acute observation (i think dancing about architecture is often fascinating)

Like Phil said--I find the history of "country" music quite interesting. Maybe it's because I vehemently resisted anything remotely "country" as I was growing up--you know, we offen seek to balance ourselves out with things... But here I am interested in things like "Dutch hop" and going around playing "lumberjack piano" and accordian for folks...doing some of the most downright folkiest things

Well, maybe you're right: maybe I shouldn't ask "why" I do it ; (

Oops, I guess that's Olaf--not Phil

[Charlieshafer]

I'm not sure it does dominate "American String Music" like you may think it does. Everything comes and goes in waves, anyway, and currently, bluegrass bands are sort of hot (in a small picture.) But not as hot as the "new-wave" stuff that seems to spark all the controversies on the forum. Very few bluegrass festivals are totally bluegrass, and the largest growing segment right now seems to be the "Americana" label that gets put on a lot of the newer bands, and seems to be where the old-school old-time/country artist is hanging out. If I look at the demo cd's I get or plugs from agents, and we eliminate the Celtic stuff, or the other string-band sub-genre which includes folks like Chris Thile, Darol Anger and Mike Marshall, the Haas sisters, and so on, it looks like the newer bands weigh in at about 75% Americana and about 25% straight-ahead bluegrass, and even on those cd's, there's a lot of material which isn't bluegrass.

Unless it's a super-star like Hot Rize, it's very tough to sell out a bluegrass show in New England. The smaller venues do well with the newer groups, like Della Mae or the Deadly Gentlemen, but they're really not straight-ahead bluegrass. The Deadly Gentleman, started by Greg Liszt, really was his side project from Crooked Still, and started as a "banjo-rap" group. Bluegrass hip-hop? The videos you might see of them jamming are more traditional, but given their choice, they like playing some strange stuff.

It may be that the bluegrass crown just yells a little louder, but if you're looking for what would fall into the old-shool country or old-time basket, I've never seen so much good young talent in years, and so many stations (ok, college stations) starting to play it.

[shortymack]

That super bowl show was great!.........with the mute on while I was in the kitchen.

[SincereCorgi]

I'm not sure it does dominate "American String Music" like you may think it does.

I should have been more clear... I totally agree with you about the current state of 'American string music', where bluegrass has diversified and hybridized considerably and even brought in other 'roots' music under its banner. What I was wondering about was these older guys with the matching shirts who seemed to originate the purist 'bluegrasser' identity through the '60s and '70s. I mean, why bluegrass instrumentation and not, say, jug band instrumentation?

It definately didn´t. The old time music (think Bollick Bros., Wade Mainer´s Mountaineers, Doc Boggs, Morris Bros [Let Me Be Your Salty Dog] and many others) were virtualy nonexistent after the 30ies. Doc Boggs worked as a miner until he was "rediscovered" in the 60ies. This goes for numerous others. The Morris Bros. who gave Earl Scruggs a start in the 40ies were having a body shop in the 70ies. The old timers just didn´t modernize into the George Straits and Joe Diffies of the nineties.

I agree that very few hillbilly artists evolved over their careers to embrace the changes of style. Bill Monroe certainly tried, even including an electric guitar. I guess I was thinking of what the Carter Family had turned into by the '60s. You can draw a line from hillbilly music through to the increasing electrification and 'evolution' of country and western, whereas bluegrass stops in its evolutionary tracks like an alligator. (This is not to denigrate bluegrass... alligators are very effective.)

[f5loar]

Well you can blame Garth Brookes for changing the face of Country Music for the fans. You can blame Carlton Haney for changing the Bluegrass scene into Festivals for the fans. There was a time Country and Western and Bluegrass did get along together on big stages but it didn't last long. Bluegrass has been the "jazz" of Country music and has it's own set standards. But I will hand it to the Grand Ole Opry. They still do feature Bluegrass (Del,Bobby,Jesse,Ricky) and some old time(Synder,Cloggers) mixed in with some old Country with lots of new Country every Saturday night. And as long as I hear that all is okay with the world.

[Robin Clark]

I was at a jam yesterday, and I played a little with a few older guys who I'd classify as hardcore bluegrassers- they play fast and hard and know all the repertoire and all the LPs and between songs they reminisce about defunct music festivals from the '60s that had rugged, outdoorsy names.

Now, I like that stuff, but I like old Roy Acuff and Carter Family a little better, and it got me wondering: why did all the other string band music from the '20-'40s gradually modernize itself and fade away to become 'country and western', while bluegrass started spawning festivals and countless imitators in matching shirts?

I'm not sure that's so true over here in the UK. I would have to say that the old time fiddle tunes are more well known than bluegrass. For example: I was at a session in our local pub on Friday night with our bluegrass band and there was a morris dance team visiting the area for a winter training weekend and they turned up at the pub with their musicians (accordians, fiddles). We quickly found common ground in American old-time fiddle tunes (Angeline the Baker, Soldiers Joy, Shove the Pig's Foot, Shady Grove, Frosty Morning etc etc) and some Scottish and Irish tunes (that are incidently now often played as 'old time' in the US). We played some bluegrass too which their musicians joined in (let's face it, bluegrass isn't rocket science!) but it wasn't comon ground. The night turned into quite a cultural mix with at one stage a bluegrass band and an English morris band playing "Whiskey Before Breakfast" together while a couple of Lancashire clog dancers beat it out on the stone flag floor of an old Welsh pub built in 1650. The place was packed out for the whole night - evenings of music like that don't come along too often in a lifetime!

[Ivan Kelsall]

For an over all profile of what was going on prior to & during the rise of Bluegrass music & the people involved,you could do far worse than read Neil Rosenberg's book 'Bluegrass - A History'. Bluegrass drew on a lot of Old Timey music in it's begining & many of the popular OT songs & tunes are still in the Bluegrass repertoir. Going back to the mid 60's early 70's,Country & Western was very big in the UK with most of the bands coming from Liverpool side by side with the 'Merseybeaters'. In fact the very first non USA band to play the Grand Ole Opry,were the 'Hillsiders' from Liverpool. George Jones,Buck Owens,Ernest Tubb & all those guys & gals (Dolly Parton,Jean Sheperd,Patsy Cline etc.) were big names over here & Bluegrass was still in it's infancy in the UK.
I'm not sure whether 'dominate' is the right word,but Bluegrass music took of in such a dynamic way,that maybe the OT bands simply couldn't compete in much the same way that other pop music genres took a beating when Elvis Presley came on the scene.
We can wonder all we may,but thank the good Lord that Bill Monroe's legacy is still going strong,not only in the USA,but all over the world,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

Old time is the meal. Bluegrass is the happy meal: burgers, fries and a coke.

I'll take the liberty of re-using this picture whenever it comes in handy. Pity on those who value plastic surrogates over the original.

[Fretbear]

Funny thing about bluegrass (properly played) is that it was (and still is, in my opinion) a very advanced and modern style. Fast, streamlined and smooth, like a state-of-the-art locomotive, be it 1946, or 2014. The whole "hillbilly stomping in the mud" pall that hangs over it, has little to do with it's genius originators, or it's second and third generation torch-bearers either, but more because of the festivals specifically created for the music's promotion since the Sixties.
Without those festivals I don't know if it would exist today as anything more than just a musical footnote.

[AlanN]

Yes, festivals surely broadened the appeal, but I thing the 2nd/3rd gen pickers did more for the appeal and growth than not. Osbornes, etc, then Grisman and Bush and Rice et al. Then, the younger set came on...

[OldSausage]

I'll take the liberty of re-using this picture whenever it comes in handy. Pity on those who value plastic surrogates over the original.

Ha ha. Show me "the original" and I'll show you a plastic surrogate of an earlier "original".