Finish question: do you finish the neck?

[belbein]

On my new Octave, I'm going to start the finishing process this week. I've decided to teach myself French Polish and will do that for the top and back, possibly the sides.

But on the neck ... I'm not sure how shellack will hold up to the constant rubbing, and I'm not sure whether it will be sticky--I mean less than slick--for sliding up and down the neck as I'm playing.

So ... do y'all finish the neck at all, and if so do you ever do anything different for the neck than the body?

[multidon]

Both of my mandolins have finish on the neck one poly and one lacquer. I have no problem with it. Most violins which are varnish have an oiled neck. I had a viola once with a varnished neck and I did not like the feel. It is common for mandolin players to have a speed neck job professionally done where the finish is removed from the neck. Then there is a debate as to leaving it plain or oiling it with tung oil or something similar. If I were doing a shellac finish personally I would not finish the neck. The feel of shellac would probably be similar to that of violin varnish. I would probably oil it with pure tung oil. I like the feel.

[Audio Artillery]

I'm not sure how shellack will hold up to the constant rubbing

Depends on how thick you build it up. While shellac scratches easier than other finishes I don't know that it wears any faster. I wouldn't worry about it.

and I'm not sure whether it will be sticky--I mean less than slick--for sliding up and down the neck as I'm playing.

It feels perfect to me. You can always just not polish it quite as shiny on the back of the neck if that turns out to be a problem.

[belbein]

Thanks, guys. That helps.

[Stephen Perry]

Polish out down to 600 grit. Stain. Rub out with 0000 steel wool. Polish in mineral oil with green kitchen pad. Dry off nicely. Thin French polish finish coat, very thin.

[Marty Jacobson]

I think a pore-filled neck finished with Waterlox is the perfect solution. It feels slicker than bare wood, and it will never turn gray or pale. It has enough of a sheen that it doesn't look like a naked neck, either.

[Stephen Perry]

Waterlox sound like fun. Which kind? The original?

[Marty Jacobson]

Yes, sir. The original gloss "sealer/finish" version. My go-to oil varnish, especially with a shellac-based pore filler, which acts a bit like a glue size. It makes a really nice pore filler, too, just a Waterlox and pumice slurry. The pores are filled but not deadened as a colored putty filler would do. The slurry in the cup gets very hot and cures within 4 hours, as do the filled pores, and it doesn't seem to sink appreciably over time, either.

[belbein]

I'm going to hijack my own thread here, to ask this: do any of you guys work in walnut? Sanding the back of this Octave, which is walnut, Im finding a lot of tiny crevices running with the grain. At first I thought they were sanding scratches, but a woodworker friend of mine confirmed that theyre not.

So a few questions: I thought 'pores'' referred to something else, but maybe thats what I'm seeing? And two , pores or not, is this a characteristic of walnut? And three--since you mentioned pumice slurry ... will pumice slurry fill these tiny cracks, or do I just have to live with them? (Remember, I'm French Polishing.)

[peter.coombe]

Wood "pores" is exactly what you are seeing, and Walnut does have largish pores. If you have already started french polishing then pumice is probably the best way to fill them. If you have not started french polishing then there are a number of different ways of filling pores, and that is pretty much whatever floats your boat, i.e. use what works for you. Practice on a bit of scrap Walnut. Epoxy is popular amongst the guitar makers (works really well), but it is messy, smelly and can cause severe allergic reactions. All methods have pros and cons.

[Michael Lewis]

Walnut does have pores. Pores in wood are just long tubes that used to carry sap and other fluids to the living tree. You can pore fill with pumice and alcohol, rub it in and around with a hard cloth for a while and then wipe it off. I use old pants leg from blue jeans. The pumice cuts and sands the wood a bit and the resulting fibers and pumice fill the pores. It doesn't take a lot of pumice or alcohol, just keep the cloth damp until the end of the process where you let it dry out a bit as you keep rubbing. Rather like the french polishing process.

[belbein]

Wood "pores" is exactly what you are seeing, and Walnut does have largish pores. If you have already started french polishing then pumice is probably the best way to fill them. If you have not started french polishing then there are a number of different ways of filling pores, and that is pretty much whatever floats your boat, i.e. use what works for you. Practice on a bit of scrap Walnut. Epoxy is popular amongst the guitar makers (works really well), but it is messy, smelly and can cause severe allergic reactions. All methods have pros and cons.

As you probably know by now, I am MR. WEST TWO PART EPOXY. The joke around my house is that if something sits still for two long, I'll have a layer of fiberglass on it in about 2 shakes of a wet mixing stick. So naturally, the messy, dangerous "epoxy" method appeals to me.

Peter, I've seen this referred to before, but don't really know what it means. Are you using the epoxy as you would that first "Wash coat" of shellack, wiping it on, working it in, and then squeegeeing off? If so, does it effect the shine I (hope to) achieve with French polish?

[Marty Jacobson]

Brad, ideally you squeegee it while you're applying it, and then scrape it after curing. So the epoxy (or pumice, or whatever) only remains in the pores, and doesn't substantially change the gloss or texture of the final finish. Try to use the clearest epoxy you can. I think West sells a special clear hardener that has less of a color cast, I'd use that if possible.

[Pete Jenner]

Yes, sir. The original gloss "sealer/finish" version. My go-to oil varnish, especially with a shellac-based pore filler, which acts a bit like a glue size. It makes a really nice pore filler, too, just a Waterlox and pumice slurry. The pores are filled but not deadened as a colored putty filler would do. The slurry in the cup gets very hot and cures within 4 hours, as do the filled pores, and it doesn't seem to sink appreciably over time, either.

So what is in waterlox? Is it tung oil?

[Marty Jacobson]

Tung oil is one of the ingredients in the base. But a phenolic resin reacts with the tung oil and the result is a much faster cure time (hours or days vs. weeks or months) and a true film-forming varnish. It's significantly more durable than the supposedly-similar homemade finishes, like theMaloof finish, for example, which is equal parts of BLO, oil-based polyurethane, and mineral spirits.

From the Waterlox web site:
"The result of combining Tung oil (which inherently posseses excellent water resistance, due to the double bond characteristics of its molecular chain) with phenolic resin yields a film that is comparable with polyurethanes, conversion varnishes, and other synthetic coatings for chemical resistance, with the added benefit of having excellent flexibility, substrate penetration, re-coatability and non-yellowing properties."

All of those, except maybe the penetration aspect, make it good for musical instrument use. It'll go right through a mahogany back or sides in the first couple coats. So I usually do something to limit that.

Waterlox cures so well, you really need to use Bloxigen every time you open it or in a few months it will be a solid gooey chunk in the can.

[Pete Jenner]

Never heard of any of those things - I don't think they are available here.

[belbein]

All of those, except maybe the penetration aspect, make it good for musical instrument use. It'll go right through a mahogany back or sides in the first couple coats. So I usually do something to limit that.

Waterlox cures so well, you really need to use Bloxigen every time you open it or in a few months it will be a solid gooey chunk in the can.[/QUOTE]

Marty--how do you polish it? Do you put something on top of it to finish the finish?

[Stephen Perry]

I'm really curious now - I need a good varnish that isn't so picky. Tired of making my own!

[Marty Jacobson]

Stephen, if you give it a try, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of it.

Brad, I usually French polish over it. I apply the Waterlox once a day for a week, leaving a dry-to-the-touch surface with each coat (wipe it on, work it around, wipe it back off). For the first few coats I wet sand it with 600, 800, or 1000 while applying the finish. This really fills in any small pores or imperfections, and at the end of that week it is glass smooth and very pleasant to the touch. You can keep going, and even spray on or brush on the Waterlox, but it does take a few weeks to cure if you leave a wet coat.

On something like a floor or kitchen table, you want the most durable finish possible, so the Waterlox is the final coat with no french polishing or anything. It takes a month or so to build up a serious gloss.