jamgrass bands

[tree]

I mean, I don't know (in off-line life) any rock fans who still play an instrument, and I know only one BG fan personally who doesn't...

I'm one . . . but the older I get, the more of a PITA it becomes to plug in. But hey, I still occasionally drag out the SG I bought when I was 14 . . . to play with other geezers, even. Good music is good music, regardless of genre.

[catmandu2]

I'm one . . . but the older I get, the more of a PITA it becomes to plug in. But hey, I still occasionally drag out the SG I bought when I was 14 . . . to play with other geezers, even. Good music is good music, regardless of genre.

And I'm glad you didn't take offense Clark! : ) I'm sure you're not a karoke singer!

More power to you older rock guys...it takes energy (and possibly compromised hearing) and good looks to do that ; )

[tree]

Not so much good looks . . . I mean, look at the Rolling Uglies. They're not too shabby, considering! I suspect the energy comes from playing music that you like. I don't know how those guys do it, otherwise (unless it's the money).

[catmandu2]

Money's good ... (in my deceased grandmother's best Romanian-Yiddish) ... sex and drugs, not bad either

...but money's good ; ) ... it'll give ya that get up n go

[mandolirius]

Dusty Miller is cool because it can be done the old time way and more modern, also has the multiple parts to consider. Ray Legere recorded it on his Common Denominator (where he plays all the instruments). He gets this triplet thingy over 2 measures which just blows my mind. Not fair, not at all.

Wrong DM, Alan. Mike and I were talking about the Monroe tune.

[AlanN]

Hmmm...might be the same number, just vamped up a bit. Tell me the recordig of this Monroe tune you are talking about, please.

[Mike Bunting]

This version.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=bdxLI9r-2K0

[mandolirius]

This version.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=bdxLI9r-2K0

Or this one:

31 Dusty Miller [Instrumental].mp3

[AlanN]

Ah, Big Mon in his prime. And it's the same tune as Ray.

[mandolirius]

Ah, Big Mon in his prime. And it's the same tune as Ray.

I haven't heard "The Common Denominator" in a while. Got a cassette tape around here somewhere, but I thought he played the other Dusty Miller, the texas-style fiddle tune on that session. Like I said, it's been a while. I recall there being a really nice Jerusalem Ridge on there, too.

[mandolirius]

I was thinking of this D.M.

08 Dusty Miller.mp3

[ralph johansson]

2. The second point is exactly what I was talking about, taking a "bluegrass background" in new directions, but with a clearly discernible link to the tradition. Alison Krausse another example; Ricky Skaggs, Tim O'Brien, Peter Rowan...

The DGQ did not take Bluegrass into new directions and there is almost nothing to link their music with the Bluegrass tradition. For Tony Rice it was a complete departure and he had to study diligently to get into it. Joe Carroll was a jazz bassplayer and Bluegrass was but a small part of Grisman's background - his first gig was with a jug band. Etc. They did not provoke any controversy in the BG community because they didn't belong there at all and didn't pretend to.

[AlanN]

Hmmm...the 'other' Dusty Miller. I hear what you're saying, but I think it be the same number, albeit more Texas-y, with an added part which goes to the rel. minor (F#m) within. Monroe's was just 2 parts, but the 2 versions share that. I dragged out The Young Mando Monsters (terrific recording, btw) and gave a listen to Ronnie M. on it. He picks it more like Bill did, and it's a honey.

Ray's Common Denominator is very good. He mixes standards with originals, all done in a very clean, full-of-good-ideas thing. And he tabbed out all of the mandolin solos very neatly. What a player.

And to Ralph J - BG a small part of Grisman's background? Hardly, my friend. He was in a grass band as a teenager called The Garret Mountain Boys (Passaic, NJ), played with numerous bg luminaries as a young man - Red Allen, Don Stover, Muleskinner, OAITW. Granted, he did do other things throughout, but the tethering post was grass, all before he created the wondrous thing called Dawg music.

[mandopete]

And to Ralph J - BG a small part of Grisman's background? Hardly, my friend. He was in a grass band as a teenager called The Garret Mountain Boys (Passaic, NJ), played with numerous bg luminaries as a young man - Red Allen, Don Stover, Muleskinner, OAITW. Granted, he did do other things throughout, but the tethering post was grass, all before he created the wondrous thing called Dawg music.

Don't forget the gigs with Del McCoury and Winnie Winston (Early Dawg)! Yeah I was gonna say that bluegrass was really a BIG part of (and still is) David Grisman's musical background. He said as much when I interviewed him shortly before the DGBX recording came out.

To me one of best DGQ recordings was called Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz. One side was pretty much bluegrass and the other, jazz. The bluegrass stuff was pretty progressive and that's where he wanted to take it at the time.

[Laird]

Don't forget the gigs with Del McCoury and Winnie Winston (Early Dawg)! Yeah I was gonna say that bluegrass was really a BIG part of (and still is) David Grisman's musical background.

It seems overly obvious even to mention Old and in the Way, but I would call their work bluegrass trending toward jamgrass--emphasis on the blue.

[mandopete]

...maybe the emphasis should be on the grass.

[AlanN]

O behave, Pete!

One has to remember that bluegrass was pretty tame in the 50's, leading up to the 60's. Grisman's time with Wakefield also set his thing pretty solidly. Back then, even putting a minor into a tune was radical, like FW sticking Am into Leave Well Enough Alone. And to write New Camptown Races in 1953...in Bb...whoa!

Early Dawg, forgot about that one. Simply terrific. He picks Rawhide on that, fast. The A part is pretty straight, then you hear the seeds of the Dawg in the 2nd part. Marvy.

[Alex Orr]

It seems overly obvious even to mention Old and in the Way, but I would call their work bluegrass trending toward jamgrass--emphasis on the blue.

In what way? Maybe there were shows where they did a lot of segues and extended tunes to around ten minutes or so quite reguklarly, but in terms of the actual recorded output, they sounded like a loose bluegrass band. The structures of the original tunes were definitely more contemporary, but the actual playing was pretty traditional - a basic, short kick followed by verses and choruses interspersed with a break per person that hewed closely to the structure of the song. That's basic, traditional bluegrass, I don't see anything overly jammy about it.

[Justus True Waldron]

Early Dawg, forgot about that one. Simply terrific. He picks Rawhide on that, fast. The A part is pretty straight, then you hear the seeds of the Dawg in the 2nd part. Marvy.

Yeah that was pretty much bluegrass in my mind, although that did get out there a little bit, but you can't listen to that and argue that he doesn't know how to play straight ahead bluegrass! Also think it's really cool that most of the tunes off that were from a live concert right here at RPI where I do my weekly radio show. Still trying to dig up more information about it...

Speaking of my radio show, when I decided to start it I came up with my own solution to the "what is bluegrass" conundrum. I have one rule and one rule only, and that is that I will play anything on my show as long as I know the musicians are capable of playing straight ahead bluegrass. On the air I bill it as a "Bluegrass and Old Time show, with the occasional progressive acoustic tune." In this way I justify playing both the Stanley Brothers and the Tony Rice Acoustics album (which is one of my all time favorite albums, and I don't consider it bluegrass). Just how I've solved the issue in my head...

[Laird]

In what way? Maybe there were shows where they did a lot of segues and extended tunes to around ten minutes or so quite regularly, but in terms of the actual recorded output, they sounded like a loose bluegrass band.

You answer your own question pretty much the way I would. Both in and beyond the breaks (which seemed often to extend past the limits of traditional bluegrass breaks), there is a sense of space--a roominess that allows the musicians to feel their way toward shifts in mood and intuitive possibilities that seem to me to allow more organic expression than traditionally played bluegrass music.

Of course, that raises the question of what we want to define as "traditional," and this is where I think we get to the heart of the matter. If Bill Monroe's bands are our model of traditional bluegrass music, we're dealing with a pretty small sample size. I do think that the very idea of what constitutes an enjoyable performance were sufficiently tweaked (for bands like Old and in the Way) by what was happening in improvisational rock (drawing inspiration from improvisational jazz, of course) to play traditional songs and traditional instruments within a significantly different context. Sure, there was improvisation in the breaks taken by the Bluegrass Boys, but they could never have wandered into the realm of jamgrass simply because the form was so strictly enforced.

[catmandu2]

Of course, that raises the question of what we want to define as "traditional," and this is where I think we get to the heart of the matter. If Bill Monroe's bands are our model of traditional bluegrass music, we're dealing with a pretty small sample size.

If I recall from the thread where mandolin mick was advocating for such, he was saying, I think, that yes--this was "it" (Monroe--definitively, be all and end all)--I don't recollect whether other figures were permitted/included in the rubric (TBG). It helps to have a "working definition"--that's for sure; with such narrowly defined phenomena, it sure makes it easy to say--what is, and what is not...but it does get a little dicey, eh...Jelly Roll Morton said he invented "jazz" (and then every subsequent luminary in the field went on to denounce the subsequent innovation in the music as NOT "jazz"...)

My apologies to mandolin mick if I recall incorrectly or otherwise misinterpret your comments

An interesting intellectual exercise...but it is (only) what it is

[sam brigs]

I just read up on this thread. Ah, the Eugene dancing man, nice memory. Laird, I think I know you.

The thing about dancing, and that guy is a perfect example, is that it keeps you in shape. That guy must have been in his 60s at least when I lived in Eugene a decade ago and he had more muscles than I ever had in my life. There was another one too, who used to wear transparent tie-dyed skirts.

But hey, that's Eugene, where hippies go to die - nice place.

I feel what YMSB does never justifies the length of time it takes them to do it. And the instrument playing was never good enough to merit the expansiveness. To be honest most people's noodling isn't worth watching on stage. But when it's good, when it's based on hard work (ie, lots of practice)I think it can be cathartic for both the performer and the audience.

"Midnight Moonlight" seems to fit into jam territory.

I think when it comes to bluegrass jamming I like best those folks steeped in tradition who step out of it - Tony, Sam, Jerry, Bela - man, when they're together... But the thing about them is that every song is not an excuse to overindulge. Some songs are tight, others like "Me and My Guitar" open up.

I know there's no mandolin but have you guys watched any of those Rob Ickes and Jim Hurst performances on youtube? Those are pretty great too.

[mandopete]

Jamgrass, it's all about the jamming....

Harumph



Okay, I was trying something that did not work out. My point was it's all about the jamming. There are two kinds of jamming in my mind. One that is fun for the people who are doing it and in most cases does not make for great listening.

Then there's the kind that's both fun for musicians and the listeners. Takes a pretty fair amount of musical chops to make that work, regardless of whatever genre you call it.

[Laird]

I just read up on this thread. Ah, the Eugene dancing man, nice memory. Laird, I think I know you.

Hey, Sam! I like to think that seeing you play mandolin at my graduation party in Eugene helped plant a seed in my brain that led me to pick up the mando years later. Good to know you're still out there running around!

By the way, "Midnight Moonlight" is a great example. Even when we play it at my local jam (with a few pretty traditional folks), everyone understands that when you drop down to that C (from the A) it's time to see where you can go--and what you can do when you get there.

[mandolirius]

Hmmm...the 'other' Dusty Miller. I hear what you're saying, but I think it be the same number, albeit more Texas-y, with an added part which goes to the rel. minor (F#m) within. Monroe's was just 2 parts, but the 2 versions share that. I dragged out The Young Mando Monsters (terrific recording, btw) and gave a listen to Ronnie M. on it. He picks it more like Bill did, and it's a honey.

Yeah, it's an old debate. Are they the same tune or not? I think not, but I know there are plenty who do. I think it's possible they both came from the same source, some older version that may have influenced Monroe.