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Thread: Virzi--What am I missing?

  1. #26
    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Halsey View Post
    I've played one or two that were less than remarkable, but there were others that were surprisingly good. I once spent an evening with a Virzi Loar from March 1924 that was as good an F-5 as I have ever played -- absolutely even and responsive from bottom to top, with that effortless, out-front "pop" that the best of instruments seem to have.
    I'm not so into gimmicks, but I do have to admit that the Virzi often seems to dial up the Loar magic just a notch or two.
    This is where it is so tricky; that Virzi Loar that Bill (Halsey!) played and like so well was undoubtedly just a great mandolin, not (just) because it was a Loar, not because it had a Virzi or not. Whatever they do, they are probably just not powerful enough to derail a great F-holed mandolin, nor to make a poor one sing. In the case of Mike Marshall's Loar which we know was overbuilt, hanging a timber chandelier from the tonebars was unlikely to help it's tone. They seem to be great at taming and focusing Oval holes. It's just another chapter in the mysterious and unlikely tale of how the finest classical orchestral mandolin ever made went on to fame and fortune in Hillbilly Heaven.
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    I've owned three Virzied Loars over the years and two of the three were just exceptionally great sounding instruments. In fact one of them was as good as any Loar I've ever played... just an exquisite, crystalline tone... totally unique even to the world of Loars. Now... that said some of the least impressive Loars I've played had Virzi's in them as well. I once owned an A4 snake that had a Virzi which had a very strange, other-worldly tone... didn't do it for me... sold it quickly. Then a few years ago in Florida I played a Loar-era F4 with a Virzi that sounded fantastic. So you tell me! Just like any other mandolin, when they're great they're great and when they're not, they're not. In the end there's no way to tell. The proof is in the pickin'...

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  4. #28
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Maybe someone can build a mandolin with a removable back so you can see what it would sound like with and without.

    Come to think of it, IIRC Dave Cohen showed me a testing mandolin he has built with a removable back.
    ...and he did, in fact, do tests with and without a "Virzi-thingy", as he calls it. His conclusion? I believe he is on record here somewhere saying that it doesn't do much, according to his measurements, other than lowering the frequency of the 'sideways rocking' top mode slightly, presumably because of the extra mass that must be swung side to side.

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  6. #29

    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    I agree with you on all counts. Played the mandolin before the mishap, my 2002 Bush is light years ahead of the 93 F5 in my opinion. Thanks for your reply and advice.

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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    So---the general consensus is----a definitely maybe????

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  9. #31
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Yep, John, that's almost all of it. The only other thing it (i.e., the Virzi-thingy) did was raise the frequency of the third air mode, or "sideways sloshing mode" from about 1.0-1.1 kHz to about 1.2-1.3 kHz in mandolins. Had a similar effect in an H1 mandola that I looked at for a paper I gave at the 2004 75th Anniv ASA meeting in NYC, only the respective frequencies were proportionately lower. Not entirely sure why that is, since the Virzi thingy doesn't do anything at all to the Helmholtz and 2nd air modes. For a while, I thought that 1.1 kHz might be up near the "coincidence frequency", but now I think those numbers are too low for that. In any case, there is very little dipole sound radiation from the 3rd air mode in ff-hole mandolins, and no sound radiation from that mode at all in single oval hole mandolins. In the "test-mule" mandolin, I couldn't tell any difference in sound between the mandolin with thingy and without thingy. Of course, the observations were a day apart, and I don't have the acute powers of hearing that Virzithingyphiles have. The audio spectra didn't show any differences that I would want to hang my hat on or make any claims about.

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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    I concer with Dave. That's exactly how I would have said it except I would have added that a Virzi transposes the fifth dimension of the modal causing reversable tone applitudes to develop on the third trisector. But not all of them can reach that tonal peak. And as Glasweb says when they do they really do a first rate job at reaching the tonal peak.

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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Always a good start when someone makes fun of something they don't understand. That post was mostly for John's benefit, since he does read my papers and those of others too. For the benefit of F5Loar and others, here is the Lite physics version.

    1. The Virzithingy adds mass, which occasionally can be good, more often not. A mandolin top plate (sans braces) weighs anywhere from about 85 grams to about 125 grams, depending on whether it is an A, an F, the density of the wood, etc., etc. The total mass of the braces is usually around 5 grams. A mandolin Virzithingy made according to the original drawings in spruce or WRcedar or redwood weighs about 15 - 17 grams, which is in the neighborhood of what, 13-20% of the mass of the top plate! The additional mass will lower modal frequencies, but not very much, ca 10 Hz, just outside typical daily variations due to temperature, humidity, etc. The only exception to that, as John mentioned, was the sideways rocking mode. On the downside, the mass of the Virzithingy increases the inertia of the plate, i.e., makes it that much harder to drive. Strike one for the Virzithingy.

    2. The whole thing about the third air mode is that the third air mode does not make a big difference in how a mandolin makes sound. Its' amplitude is very small compared to that of the first (Helmholtz) mode, which is extremely important. Up at 1.3 kHz, the third air mode is not moving much air in the soundhole(s). That's not exactly a strike two, but neither is it of much import. The most you could say about it is that it would result in a very slight "hum" or low-pitched whistle, at around 1.3 kHz. If your hearing is really acute, you might pick it up, in which case you would either like it or not like it. I couldn't tell it was there; I'm not very subject to the Emporer's new clothes effect.

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  15. #34
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Here are two of Giuseppe Virzi's patents. I am not sure which is the one we would be concerned with in this thread ... perhaps both.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Virzi_US1412584.pdf   1351709_VIRZI.pdf  
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Virzi originally put his plates inside violins. The violin attach points shown in the patent drawings also attach (depending on the version) to the end blocks, back, sides. The patent shows two plates, curved crosswise, parallel to each other. In contrast, the mandolin version just attaches to the bars, as far as I can tell.

    I'm tempted to make a fiddle with one of the original system plate stacks in there! Would be fun. Anyone heard a Virzi equipped violin?

    As to general effects, wouldn't be surprised if they were rather subtle. I suspect one would have to do careful recording, listening, and analysis with and without, the without replacing the unit with equivalent mass on the bars. Or something like that. Fun, but hard to get anyone to pay for it!
    Stephen Perry

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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    I don`t really see how anyone can compare a mandolin with a Virzi to another mandolin without one...We know that no two mandolins really sound alike so what are we comparing? I suppose a builder could make two mandolins that to his ear sound pretty close to one another and install a Virzi in one and then compare the sound...I have heard about three F-5 Loars with Virzis and didnt care for the sound I heard but was only comparing it to what I like for bluegrass...As mentioned earlier some bluegrassers have had them removed and thought there was a better sound for what they were looking for in a mandolin, others say they like it better if left in....This seems like a debate that has no sure answer since all of us don`t like or look for the same things in a mandolin....

    Some good info from Dave but it`s time to move on....

    Willie

  18. #37
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    I've only heard one in person. It was a custom non Gibson F4 version that I got to hear from accross a small room for quite a while by a talented young artist back to back with my own 06 Goldrush. My Goldrush is the opposite end of the aperture variations with smaller F holes like the Lawson bound hole size. It's notes seem to pop out with short powerful burst in comparison with my own 23 F4's longer less fundamental more long sustaining blended sound. Anyway this difference in the virzi'd F4 was similar with the slight addition of a wavering similar to a singing human voice. It was very noticeable and I'm sure I could pick it out in a blindfold test. I have no idea how this one compared to others but it convinced me I wasn't a virzithingyphile.
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  19. #38

    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Anyone heard a Virzi equipped violin?
    Roger Siminoff told me a story of standing in line at a New York theater, and there was a violinist playing for the crowd as they waited. He heard something unique in the tone that seemed dark and familiar. He asked the violinist if his instrument had a Virzi Tone Producer and the guy was flabbergasted. He said "I've never met anyone who even knew what a Virzi was, much less could recognize it by the sound!"

    Steve

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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Roger Siminoff told me the word "credulous" wasn't in the dictionary.

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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Thanks for the PM Dave...I think we are both on the same wave length, there would really have to be a BIG difference in sound for me to even consider owning one with a Virzi

    Willie

  22. #41
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Dave's investigation into the this subject has me wondering if he was to take his measurements of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd air modes and whatever perimeters he can measure of an instrument we would all for the most part think is a great sounding instrument and then of an just ok sounding instrument would there be enough difference in his findings that he could tell us which of the two was the better sounding instrument strictly from his measurements.
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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    I'm thinking he could pick up on which instrument is louder but what really makes a mandolin outstanding? Is this something that can be measured or is it something so sutle that without our ears and brains it's just airflow of some magnitude?
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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  24. #43

    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    Dave's investigation into the this subject has me wondering if he was to take his measurements of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd air modes and whatever perimeters he can measure of an instrument we would all for the most part think is a great sounding instrument and then of an just ok sounding instrument would there be enough difference in his findings that he could tell us which of the two was the better sounding instrument strictly from his measurements.
    There is the philosophical opinion that the very act of measurement alters that which is being measured. ymmv

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    Registered User dcoventry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by lenf12 View Post
    There is the philosophical opinion that the very act of measurement alters that which is being measured. ymmv

    Len B.
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  26. #45
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    I don't think Dave is smashing atoms and taking measurements in the quantum properties of sound manifestation.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    I don't think Dave is smashing atoms and taking measurements in the quantum properties of sound manifestation.

    You DON'T think he is?!?!? Have you ever met Dave Cohen? CERN goes to HIM for advice.
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Geez, maybe I oughta stick in a few cents worth here before interference patterns emerge.

    Regarding measurement: The act of measurement does in principle alter the state of the system being measured, but in practice, that only happens in the quantum domain. The transition occurs for objects about the size of colloidal particles; below that, it's all quantum rules, but above that, classical mechanics works fine. Following are some analogies: If you want to measure the dimensions of one of your textbooks, you lay a ruler agains the respective sides. Laying the ruler there and reading the graduations does not alter the dimensions or the physical state of the textbook. When you want to measure the properties of an atom, you have to use the smallest 'ruler' available. Usually, that means a photon, e.g., light or some other form of electromagnetic radiation. Now, the energy of the photon is comparable to the difference between energy states of the atom, so bouncing that photon off the atom literally changes the state of the atom. Ergo, the state of the atom is 'altered'. In the vernacular, the photon knocks the h___ out of the atom. When we make observations on sub-colloidal particles, we literally observe them by observing the alterations in their physical states. Not so for classical wave motions. The best paper on the subject is Julian Schwinger's "The Algebra of Microscopic Measurement", which appeared in Phys Rev (B?) in the 1960's. Don't remember the exact reference at the moment, but if you have the background to read it, you will probably be able to find it.

    I'll split this post up to avoid posting something too long all at once.

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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Regarding measurements related to instrument quality: They are extremely hard to do, and also very spendy. Several reasons for that. One is that is is very hard to define quality. Quality is subjective, and varies from player to player, and from luthier to luthier. Another is that quality does not depend on air resonances alone. It depends on the sum of air resonances, body (or wood) resonances, string resonances, and, as I am now finding, neck resonances. Finally, the quality of an instrument depends not only on the instrument itself, but on the interaction between the instrument and the player. So, to study quality, I would need (1) not just one instrument, but several, and preferably of varying quality, (2) several observers, including a number of outstanding players, but also interested listeners of varying playing ability, (3) several very competent players to do some playing, and finally (4) quite a bit of money to arrange all of the above. Back in 2004, when Tom Rossing invited me to give a paper on pre-1929 mandolins at the 75th Anniv ASA meeting, I naiively posted a request on the CoMando list for some instruments to borrow for study. Got, and rightly so, some nasty responses to the effect that while I might be genuine, I also might be the equivalent of a Nigerian scammer. Fortunately, Max McCullough and a few other good friends saved my posterior with the loan of several vintage mandolins and mandolas, and Drew Carson of Aurora, IL gratiously brought his 1924 F5 over to DeKalb and was very patient while I spent the day bouncing a laser beam off of it, taking audio spectra, & etc.

    There have been a few (very few) papers in string instrument quality. Perhaps most notable and most applicable here are Meyer's two 1983 papers on (classical) guitar quality given at the Royal Swedish Academy symposium (KTH publication #38). They were entitled "Quality Aspects of the Guitar Tone" and "The Function of the Guitar Body and its Dependence on Constructional Details". He did what I described above, then attempted to related the audition data to the then known physical parameters and properties of the classical guitar. There were also papers on violin quality around that time, perhaps a few dozen. There have been only a couple of more accessible and recent papers, both in American Lutherie. My friends Al Carruth and R.M. Mottola both wrote articles therein on soundports in classical guitars. R.M.'s article in particular described the statistical problems associated with obtaining valid results on instrument quality. A lot like judging the quality of wine.

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    Last edited by Dave Cohen; Aug-18-2012 at 12:25pm. Reason: typo

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  32. #49
    Registered User Terry Allan Hall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ferguson View Post
    Great video Jim........I do notice a distinct diff between the two A models with & without the virzi & I would say the virzi mando has a sound more pleasing to my ear....:-) I wonder how a similar side-to-side comparison would go between two F-model mandos???
    Peace,
    Agreed...the Virzi-eqyuipted A4 had a sweetness that the blonde lacked...otoh, the blonde might be more "bluegrass-friendly".

  33. #50
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Virzi--What am I missing?

    [QUOTE=Stephen Perry;1080385]

    I'm tempted to make a fiddle with one of the original system plate stacks in there! Would be fun. Anyone heard a Virzi equipped violin?

    Stephen, we sold one years ago that sounded quite good, the customer was happy.
    We have an original Virzi removed from a German Cello that we did a restoration on, if there is intrest I could post photo's of it.
    Charley

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