What to do with this 1917 A-4 Gibson…?

[Tannon]

After Years of lurking through E-bay and the Café classifieds I finally found an A-4 Gibson that I thought met all my specifications...

1917, all original, no cracks, straight neck, good price, etc… I talked to a sales person who was very helpful and played her over the phone and told me that the only thing wrong with her was that there was a little top sinkage “not bad” he said. Since it seemed like a good deal and the store offered a 14 trial period I went ahead and bought it. I received it in the mail and after a few days I tuned her up and played a bit. Everything looked and sounded great until I realized that the “little” top sinkage was actually a “Major” sinkage! I had planned to bring it in to my local Luthier anyways so I took it in the next day for an examination. Long story short… The top brace was missing/gone! Actually it wasn’t missing it was sitting all by itself inside the little compartment inside the case…! Yikes! I called the seller. They apologized for the oversight and have offered to repair or pay my Luthier for the repairs.

My dilemma… We really have no idea how long the brace has been out of this instrument (although the glue area and the brace itself are slightly tacky to the touch. A failed repair?) My Luthier also seemed very concerned that the top may crack where the treble side had sunk into the top when he attempts a repair. The top raised back a bit when we released string pressure although I still have to lift the treble side of the bridge up about 3/8 inch from the top to bring the strings level on the fret board. My Luthier said he would have to create a shim to level it out. A few expected minor repairs will also be needed (fret dress, possible nut replacement or shim)

I have never owned a teen Gibson so besides the slim pickings I have seen in the few stores around town I really don’t know what to expect. Should this kind of a repair be a RED FLAG for this kind of instrument? I know top sinkage is common for Gibsons of this era but I think most of those still have some sort of brace still in them! Luckily, I am still within the time limit for a return/refund.

As I see it my choices are…

Return it. And continue my search. (but what problems will the next one have? This one is great except the sinkage)

Have it repaired and shim rigged at my Luthier hoping it doesn’t crack (he is good but not an “expert” can this kind of repair be done where no shimming is necessary or is shimming necessarily a bad thing.)

Send it back to Wisconsin for repairs at a this guitar shop (I have no idea how good their Repair folks are… They missed it the first time! More shipping stress for this instrument!)

Keep the mandolin and hope to find an expert who can fix this correctly without shimming and not charge me a billion dollars…

If anyone here has any thoughts, similar experiences or if you just want to slap me please advise and Thank you!!

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/al...p?albumid=1336

[Paul Hostetter]

There are really good luthiers in Colorado. Get the brace put back in. Play it.

If you saw my 1917 A-4 when I bought it, you would consider yourself lucky.

[Fretbear]

You never said what you paid for it; that's kind of important to know regarding whether to return it, fix it, or have the seller pay for the repairs. A 3/8 bridge shim is not a repair. The top needs to be re-contoured and braced from inside by someone who knows what they are doing using moisture and forming weights.
This is generally done with the back removed, which is a fairly major operation.

[vhughes2000]

A 3/8 bridge shim is not a repair. The top needs to be re-contoured and braced from inside by someone who knows what they are doing using moisture and forming weights.
This is generally done with the back removed, which is a fairly major operation.

I agree with the above..it needs to be properly repaired..After the repair I'd go with a nice CA full contact bridge as well.

[brunello97]

Paul, do you think this kind of repair can be done 'ship in the bottle' style or would you imagine the back having to come off? (I realize I'm asking you to diagnose something from afar…) I've checked out some of Frank Ford's pages on top repair but it still looks like wizardry to me. How difficult of a problem is this to address?

thanks!

Mick

[mtucker]

Have it repaired and shim rigged at my Luthier hoping it doesn’t crack (he is good but not an “expert” can this kind of repair be done where no shimming is necessary or is shimming necessarily a bad thing.)

please advise and Thank you!!

Like Paul said, it should be very straightforward for the right repair guy. I wouldn't mess around with someone who is 'no expert', with a nice mandolin like yours, no offense intended. Others here can suggest good repair people in the Denver area that have done lots of work on these oldies and can also set yours up properly once the repair is complete. Do it right the first time.

[Marty Jacobson]

Absolutely get it fixed! Heck, the seller is offering to pay for the repair, so get it to the best luthier with experience with these that you can reach conveniently! (Though I would get a rough estimate and make sure they agree to the ballpark price of the repair before assuming anything.. :-)

[Paul Hostetter]

Paul, do you think this kind of repair can be done 'ship in the bottle' style or would you imagine the back having to come off? (I realize I'm asking you to diagnose something from afar…) I've checked out some of Frank Ford's pages on top repair but it still looks like wizardry to me. How difficult of a problem is this to address?

Putting the brace back is easy to do through the soundhole. It's right there, easy to clean, glue, clamp, etc. It might not look like much, but it's amazing how important that brace is, and how well it supports the shape of the top once it's put back.



Love the ship in a bottle metaphor!

In the case of my own '17 A-4, someone had sat on it and inverted the top and put a crack end to end. The brace came off as well. I literally popped the top back up as if it were sheet metal, and glued the crack, then glued the brace back. The crack barely shows, and in any case is mostly under the pickguard. I used the original bridge (I really like them!) and it has been a superlative oval-A Gibson for me since 1980 or so, whenever it landed in my life as a wreck.

Tannon, contact me offlist and I'll give you some names in the Denver area.

[Paul Hostetter]

PS: I really avoid taking backs off because of the inevitable shrinkage that occurs. And that neckblock area is a bear to get open without making a mess.

[brunello97]

PS: I really avoid taking backs off because of the inevitable shrinkage that occurs. And that neckblock area is a bear to get open without making a mess.

Great photo! I've had corduroy pants that didn't look that good as that top.

What about residual sinkage/deformation in the top? Will the properly re-seated brace help re-configure that original profile? Are there more radical sinkages that call for other strategies? I don't mean to put you on the spot, Paul, but this question seems to come up time and again and since we've got you plugged in here, I thought I'd follow up with some more questions. You've always provided such clear diagrams of your points. The architect in me really appreciates them.

I just had some work done up at Elderly in the spring on my '16 A1. I had thought it was top related but apparently not. Some very nice work done by Stretch Reinsmith on the fretboard and frets and it plays like a dream. All this just a bit more encouragement to Tannon to make it happen.

Mick

[Paul Hostetter]

Tops often just go back to normal and stay there when the brace is simply glued back in. Sometimes it's just not enough, especially if the top is too thin or weak, or it's been warpo for too long. I have x-braced a few Gibson A's, and yes, that involved removing the back. They actually sounded great!

[Tannon]

You never said what you paid for it; that's kind of important to know regarding whether to return it, fix it, or have the seller pay for the repairs. .

I paid $2100 seemed a good price at the time. Especially for an A-4 in what I thought was great condition. Just to clarify. I am looking for a keeper to play not necessarily planning to sell later. (I just love those Handel tuners)

The top needs to be re-contoured and braced from inside by someone who knows what they are doing using moisture and forming weights.
This is generally done with the back removed, which is a fairly major operation.

This is what I went to the shop thinking would have to be done. (not that I really have a clue or anything! LOL!) How much does something like this usually cost ballpark? Under 500$? Over 500$? I was quoted around $150 for the equivalent of Paul's suggested easier repair. My Luthier seemed hesitant to attempt pulling the back off.

A 3/8 bridge shim is not a repair.

Although he meant this in conjunction with regluing the brace, this is actually what threw a red flag for me, and made me question my Luthier. “A shim? Really?” Thus my inquiry here on the Café... That and the possibility of it cracking… Maybe it's just me that’s cracking!

Putting the brace back is easy to do through the soundhole. It's right there, easy to clean, glue, clamp, etc. It might not look like much, but it's amazing how important that brace is, and how well it supports the shape of the top once it's put back.

What about residual sinkage/deformation in the top? Will the properly re-seated brace help re-configure that original profile? Are there more radical sinkages that call for other strategies?

Tops often just go back to normal and stay there when the brace is simply glued back in. Sometimes it's just not enough, especially if the top is too thin or weak, or it's been warpo for too long.

This is what my Luthier wants to do. And I had the exact same concerns as Brunello97. I was uncertain that this simple of a repair would be enough. Do you think it possible this may pop the top back in contour enough to eliminate the need for a 3/8 inch shim? I suppose I could always have him try this method first and if that doesn’t work to continue on to the more intensive care that FretBear is suggesting.

Others here can suggest good repair people in the Denver area that have done lots of work on these oldies and can also set yours up properly once the repair is complete. Do it right the first time.

Tannon, contact me offlist and I'll give you some names in the Denver area.

Paul, I’ll be contacting you shortly!

All this just a bit more encouragement to Tannon to make it happen.

This is exactly why I am posting here! My family and friends just look at me funny and scorn “you spent how much on that old thing!?” Sometimes I think they are right, I am crazy. But it is quite an enjoyable kind of insanity!