Breedlove FF versatility

[jackmalonis]

Howdy cafe-ers,

I'm very seriously considering getting a used Breedlove FF American series (in fact I'm saving for it now) and I was wondering if anyone that has one can tell me whether you think it's pretty versatile across genres.

I plan on playing in some stringed orchestras and plectrum orchestras at the University of Texas, so I need a good classical tone. And I'll also be gigging with it, playing blues and bluegrass around Austin.

Anyway, your responses are appreciated, and other suggestions of genre crossable mandolins in the same price range are welcome.

Thanks!

[greg_tsam]

Yes.

[Buck]

About 80% of what I play is Bluegrass, and the rest sounds like a Bluegrass guy trying to play something else.

With that out of the way, IME the Breedloves lack the power to excel as Bluegrass mandolins. Are they usable? Absolutely, if you're up to the task. They may even work pretty well as a crossover instrument. Any time you want a single tool to perform multiple tasks there is some risk that it won't be ideal for any of them. Would I use one as my primary Bluegrass mandolin? Not even if it was free.

Just to prove I'm not completely closed minded on the issue, the two mandolins that get most of my playing time are an early Weber Big Sky (X-braced) and an early Collings MF-5. Neither has what you might consider the classic Bluegrass sound, but they are both very powerful and work well when played along with other instruments.

[EdHanrahan]

... so I need a good classical tone.

Hmmm... Not sure what "good classical tone" actually means. The sound of a bowlback, or something else? A more detailed description might elicit more detailed responses from those who actually know.

Keep in mind that Lloyd Loar designed the F-5 to be a classical instrument... bluegrass was still several decades in the future!

[multidon]

I am the owner of a Breedlove FF Quartz and i don't play bluegrass at all. I simply got a deal on it that I could not pass up. I have used it to play Celtic and Old Time so I guess that's versatile, but it's not necessarily my first choice for those. I use it in situations where I need volume without amplification, as it is capable of being quite loud. But I think its tone leans towards "bluegrassy" if that's a term. I have heard, don't know if it's true or not, that Breedlove voices the tops on the F models differently than the K or O models to lean more towards a bluegrass sound, since that's what they perceive as their target market for that model. That being said, I think you can play anything on anything. It's really a matter of whether the tone appeals to you or not. I just recently played a bunch of Webers. These are all instruments from the same factory and I swear the tone was as different as night and day on every single one of them. I bet Breedloves are the same way, even though I haven't played a bunch. Instruments are individuals with their own distinct voices.

[mfeuerst]

Agree with multidon....tone can be expected to vary by instrument of one model. While my new FF can play it all, I prefer its tone for BG more than for Classical and Celtic. It's fairly loud without amplification.

[jackmalonis]

Hmmm... Not sure what "good classical tone" actually means. The sound of a bowlback, or something else? A more detailed description might elicit more detailed responses from those who actually know.

Keep in mind that Lloyd Loar designed the F-5 to be a classical instrument... bluegrass was still several decades in the future!

I don't know either! I just know that I don't want to butcher Bach on the FF.

Nor do I want to show up to a bluegrass jam with a lute

[greg_tsam]

About 80% of what I play is Bluegrass, and the rest sounds like a Bluegrass guy trying to play something else.

With that out of the way, IME the Breedloves lack the power to excel as Bluegrass mandolins.

What do you mean by power? Do you mean volume because everyone I play with will tell you how loud my BL FF is. Or maybe it's the player.

[greg_tsam]

The BL FF has more reverb and sustain to it's tone than a dry woody sound so it does crosspicking quite well. From what I've read of the OP's other posts, he's hoping to get a lot of different opinions before he pulls the trigger but I'm still not sure what he's looking for and still not sure if he is sure what he is looking for.

Weber makes great mandolins but the three I have are all different. The Bitter Root would be the Bluegrasser's pick.

[greg_tsam]

And Lloyd Loar designed the mandolin to be tuned at concert pitch for his era not ours. Here's a good thread with a lot of respected members discussing it. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/ar...p/t-58815.html

[jackmalonis]

The BL FF has more reverb and sustain to it's tone than a dry woody sound so it does crosspicking quite well. From what I've read of the OP's other posts, he's hoping to get a lot of different opinions before he pulls the trigger but I'm still not sure what he's looking for and still not sure if he is sure what he is looking for.

Haha I think you nailed it.

Well the problem is that I have to save for the Breedlove... and saving means waiting... and waiting means thinking... and thinking means considering trying every mandolin in the price range that I can get my hands on... which tends to muddy the waters.

At this point I'm still most set on the Breedlove.

The ONLY thing about the FF I'm not very fond of (and keep in mind this could just be a lack of setup on the mando at the store) was that it didn't play superbly up the neck. And that could possibly be a counter-indication to playing it in a classical setting. So I was wondering if there was anyone who plays classical music on their FF and can prove me wrong.

[chukarwalker]

Maybe I can help with your question. My mandolin has been a Collings MF, and yesterday I took delivery of a Breedlove FF Masterclass (not sure how that differs from the American series besides the fancier detail). The Breedlove's sound is very clear and rings like a bell, but lacks the throatiness or chunk of the Collings. The action on the Breedlove was higher than I prefer, but quite easily remedied by adjusting the bridge downward - I'd say the playability factor you mentioned is only a matter of set up. However, the Collings and Breedlove have quite a different feel. The Breedlove seems like it has wider spacing at the bridge, so the strings are a bit farther apart (both are 1 3/16 at the nut). The neck on the Breedlove is a bigger chunk, more rounded which to me is more like a mini guitar type feel. I'm a relatively new mando player, but have many years of guitar experience. In that regard, I used to waste a whole lot of, time, energy and money worrying around small details like 1/16 of an inch string spacing, neck shapes and all that. The bottom line is that I really do like the Breedlove, and I think it can do just fine with whatever it is that you want to play with room to spare. I find it to be very aesthetically pleasing, comfortable to play and is versatile enough. If you feel an attraction to the Breedlove, I'd say go for it, because that is what will make you want to play it frequently, which is really what makes all the difference.

[Folkmusician.com]

The Breedlove does not have a 100% dry bluegrass voice to it, but it will do well in a Bluegrass setting. It does make an excellent choice if your playing more than one style. If the one you tried was not playing well, assume it was a poor setup.

You might consider the KF as well.

[jackmalonis]

The Breedlove does not have a 100% dry bluegrass voice to it, but it will do well in a Bluegrass setting. It does make an excellent choice if your playing more than one style. If the one you tried was not playing well, assume it was a poor setup.

You might consider the KF as well.

Great to know! I try to get my feet wet in a little bit of everything musically (keyword: try) so I think that will be exactly what I'm looking for.

And as far as assuming the poor setup, I also felt if part of the problem up the neck was that the fret space was to small for me to play accurately in the higher positions. That might have just been my imagination trying to attribute something for the lack of playability.

Another thing...

As was kind of brought up in question earlier in the thread, is there going to be any huge differences tonally between the american series, and the master class or "premier/limited edition" series, or is it all just the fancy appointments and finishes etc?

[multidon]

As was kind of brought up in question earlier in the thread, is there going to be any huge differences tonally between the american series, and the master class or "premier/limited edition" series, or is it all just the fancy appointments and finishes etc?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when you move up from American Series to Premier or "Limited", it is just cosmetics- better wood (figure), glossy finish, bindings, etc. You do get upgraded tuners and a cast tailpiece. The cast tailpiece might improve the tone. That is a hot topic of debate around here. When you move to Master level, you get all of the above plus final graduation and voicing by Kim Breedlove himself. Whether that makes a tonal difference is subject for debate also.

[NG53]

For versatility across genres go for a Silver Angel F5 or an A5. It has a great range and depth of tone at the bottom end. Ken Ratcliff designs his mandolins to be played across a range of genres.

[jackmalonis]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when you move up from American Series to Premier or "Limited", it is just cosmetics- better wood (figure), glossy finish, bindings, etc. You do get upgraded tuners and a cast tailpiece. The cast tailpiece might improve the tone. That is a hot topic of debate around here. When you move to Master level, you get all of the above plus final graduation and voicing by Kim Breedlove himself. Whether that makes a tonal difference is subject for debate also.

So point is no HUGE tone difference?
That's good to know, I like the satin better anyway (though binding and a headstock inlay would be nice)

For versatility across genres go for a Silver Angel F5 or an A5. It has a great range and depth of tone at the bottom end. Ken Ratcliff designs his mandolins to be played across a range of genres.

I would love one, but unfortunately I can't afford it...

The best sounding mandolin I've ever played is a custom Weber Gallatin with an upgraded spruce top and custom varnish finish. At $3,000 though there's no way I can make it mine... So instead I think I'm going with the VERY close second, a used FF (for about half the price). There's a sense of urgency though because I need to have a decent instrument before school starts in a couple weeks, and the ensembles start practicing.... I'll get laughed at with my epiphone

[greg_tsam]

Haha I think you nailed it.

Well the problem is that I have to save for the Breedlove... and saving means waiting... and waiting means thinking... and thinking means considering trying every mandolin in the price range that I can get my hands on... which tends to muddy the waters.

At this point I'm still most set on the Breedlove.

The ONLY thing about the FF I'm not very fond of (and keep in mind this could just be a lack of setup on the mando at the store) was that it didn't play superbly up the neck. And that could possibly be a counter-indication to playing it in a classical setting. So I was wondering if there was anyone who plays classical music on their FF and can prove me wrong.

Ba-Zing!

I had to learn to set up my mandolin and it was worth every second of reading and experimenting. My FF is at 3/64 at the 12th fret and plays smooth all over the neck. I played it for 2 years before adjusting it and it had extremely high action and needed a truss rod adjustment; but I didn't know any better. It came set up medium and high humidity and time worked it's magic.

After some turns of the truss rod and adjusting the bridge height I got it to where it is today. It plays smooth.

[greg_tsam]

I have to agree about the chunky neck. I never knew it until I tried a special cut Weber that was thinner than most. I really liked it and now I notice the chunky munky.

[pjlama]

What's the price on the ff? Being in Austin you do have the opportunity to try some high end stuff, I realize you can't afford it but it may be a good baseline for your reference. I've got a little experience with the Breedlove stuff and think its quite good, it sounds like a good set-up is all that's required for you and this mandolin to be good friends. I'm of the opinion that we can make any mandolin work for any genre but some make the job easier, that said get that ff and set it up in time for school.

[jackmalonis]

I have someone willing to sell a 3 or 4 year old Quartz FF for $1,400. Tried to talk him down to twelve since they were cheaper when he got it originally, but he won't budge, and I can't find a cheaper one anywhere.

And about the thicker neck... I'm trying to decide if that's good or bad for me. Coming from guitar, I kind of brought with me the bad habit (normal habit on guitar) of pressing my thumb against the middle of the neck, behind where the rest of my hand is, when I'm playing considerable stretches. While I know this isn't commonplace on mandolin it's pretty necessary for me on some passages because of my small hands.

Recently that's been causing a decent amount of pain the the muscles attaching to my thumb (same kind of pain like if you had to play Barre chords on a guitar for 5 minutes straight) and I'm trying to figure out if a beefier neck would help or worsen that.

It almost seems like the thicker neck would make it better because my thumb would be at a wider angle, and I might not have to apply as much pressure against the neck on bigger stretches.

[jackmalonis]

Ba-Zing!

I had to learn to set up my mandolin and it was worth every second of reading and experimenting. My FF is at 3/64 at the 12th fret and plays smooth all over the neck. I played it for 2 years before adjusting it and it had extremely high action and needed a truss rod adjustment; but I didn't know any better. It came set up medium and high humidity and time worked it's magic.

After some turns of the truss rod and adjusting the bridge height I got it to where it is today. It plays smooth.

Oh! And Greg, I just downloaded Rob Meldrum's eBook on how to set up a mandolin!
It doesn't do me much use on my epiphone though, seeing as the truss rod is not adjustable...

I've been setting up guitars for a while bit never free-standing-bridge instruments.
It's a whole different ball game!

[multidon]

I have someone willing to sell a 3 or 4 year old Quartz FF for $1,400. Tried to talk him down to twelve since they were cheaper when he got it originally, but he won't budge, and I can't find a cheaper one anywhere.

That is too bad. When he bought that instrument brand new It was around 1500 at the time. He is trying to get back most of his money. I have noticed others trying to get more for their Breedloves since the prices were jacked up last year. That attitude makes no sense to me, unless of course they think it's supply and demand and they can get it. But that is an inflated price for used FF. I bought mine used 2 years ago for 900, paid an extra 100 for a Breedlove case which it did not have. Even assuming his is like mint I would think no more than 1200 would be fair.

Check out this in our Cafe classifieds, NFI:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/58683

This looks really nice and I might consider it if I didn't already have a FF. But I wanted you to see how much it is discounted from what he paid for it. About half! Maybe a motivated seller?

[jackmalonis]

It is a shame especially since he said he wasn't really playing it much.

Yeah, I saw it, but the extra couple hundred isn't worth the appointments to me. Plus I like the Satin finish.

But maybe I'll point the seller in that direction. You know, just point out that his is a little pricey. I would really like that FF for 1,200 haha.

[Justus True Waldron]

Only ever having played one Breedlove (a KF) I probably can't provide the most in depth answer on this, but I'll say what I know. I have always had a sneaking interest in Breedloves as a possible purchase someday for a camping mandolin. I like that they are (as far as I know?) USA made, look cool, and are relatively inexpensive (at least compared to my other mando!). Still I'd never actually gotten to try one until last month when I played somebody's KF at the Grey Fox mando meetup. I have to say I played some nice mandolins there, and while I wouldn't ever trade any of them for my Macica (I love it when that happens!) if there was any mando there I would have liked to take home it was the breedlove. I played it for maybe 10 minutes before more people showed up, and then a little bit longer in a mando jam. It seemed plenty loud enough for me, pretty balanced with the nice "thunk" sound I like. Not really a "Loar" tone like my mando, but it was a pleasant and useful sound nonetheless. Action was a little high but the neck was straight and it was still really easy to play all the way up the neck. The neck was a little chunky, but I could have gotten used to it or easily shaped it down a little bit. It had a "pretty" tone when I played some chris thile crosspicking tunes on it, and it sounded open when I dug in a little playing with other people. Not sure if it was just that one, since it was the only one I've played, but based on that experience I'm seriously considering fixing up my spare kentucky, selling it and picking up a breedlove in the next year or two.