Old Time vs. Bluegrass Format for a Slow Jam?

[Phil Vinyard]

Our weekly slow jam has traditionally played bluegrass style, meaning we take turns picking the tune and then pass the lead around the circle. We've always been very clear that anybody can pass when it's their turn for the lead if they want to. Or try to play the lead and slaughter it--that's OK. We see it as a learning jam and mistakes are welcome.

I heard from some folks that were in our weekly jam way before I was that it used to be an old time style jam, where they took turns picking the tune but everybody played whatever part they wanted all the way through the tune.

Last night the group was smaller and mostly rookies, so I declared we were using old time format for the evening. Seems like it went better. Some of my rookies played some leads here and there, or part of a lead, when they maybe wouldn't have otherwise.

What are your thoughts or experiences on this?

Bluegrass style forces you to work on playing leads, which is important. But the old time format last night de-stressed the rookies and I think they all played better.

[Bill Baldridge]

"What are you trying to accomplish?" followed by, "Whatever works."

[Steve L]

"Bluegrass style forces you to work on playing leads, which is important."

Why? To whom?

[SincereCorgi]

As I see it, the advantage of 'old time' is mainly that it's extremely non-scary for beginners, like you said, and it's good at accommodating a pretty large number of musicians. The downside is that you can barely hear yourself and I don't think it particularly encourages musical growth. The advantage of 'bluegrass' is that it's a high-pressure situation, and messing up a solo in public is excellent for education as well as motivation. The problem is that a tune at a 'bluegrass' jam with a lot of people take forever and you often can't hear the soloists over beginners pounding out rhythm.

(I use quotes because I think it would be better if there were different terms for these styles of jams, like 'all around' vs. 'one by one' or something. For me, the term 'bluegrass' has implications regarding the role of the banjo and mandolin and harmony singing, and most jams in 'bluegrass' style rarely conform to that.)

[Chip Booth]

Why not use both in the same jam? Start with old time to loosen everyone up then progress to individual solos. Maybe wrap up the night with a big old time song to once again include anyone who wasn't willing to play solo.

Beginners can use exposure to as many styles and performing situations as they can get.

[fatt-dad]

to me an old-time jam is like a drum circle. There's an energy created that trancends individual prowess. I go to an old-time jam for therapy - to experience that vibe. Sure, we all have to fit in to what each other is playing. That's the musical component. Each individual can vary their unison play, sometimes noting the melody on high strings and next time on the lower strings or such. That's fun to mess with and learn from too.

I really can't comment on bluegrass jamming though. . .

f-d

[allenhopkins]

...The advantage of 'bluegrass' is that it's a high-pressure situation...

New musicians might not see this as an "advantage."

Mixing up the genres -- a possibility, as Chip suggests? Try some tunes/songs without rotating "breaks," some others with?

There are a lot of other differences, which need to be considered. Bluegrass musicians can get impatient during a fiddle tune being played 15 times through without any significant variation in lead instrument, melody, or whatever. Old-time musicians may feel they haven't even gotten "warmed up" during a 1:48 bluegrass instrumental. While fiddle tunes and some songs may overlap both genres, there really are distinct repertoires that aren't always compatible. Singing styles differ; banjos are played differently, other instruments as well, though perhaps not to the same extent.

It has surprised me over the decades, how distinct bluegrass has become from its progenitor (or one of its progenitors), old-time string band music. To the non-involved, who call anything with a fiddle and banjo "bluegrass," it may all sound the same, but to those who play it, the two styles are quite different.

I'd try a "mixed" jam and see what happens. Don't be surprised or disappointed if the jam breaks up into two "sub-jams," though.

[Mike Bunting]

I like the flexibility that you show in your jam.

[Turnip Mountain Picker]

It has surprised me over the decades, how distinct bluegrass has become from its progenitor (or one of its progenitors), old-time string band music. To the non-involved, who call anything with a fiddle and banjo "bluegrass," it may all sound the same, but to those who play it, the two styles are quite different.

Yea, its amazing what one man can do!!!

But it’s all what the crowd wants to do, both will get you down the road, but its like the old discussion pyramid:

Fast
Good
Easy

Pick two, you cant have all three.
If its fast and good, it will not be easy;
If its fast and easy it will not be good;
If its easy and good it will not be fast.

[mingusb1]

A good question. I play a lot of both bluegrass and oldtime mandolin and here are a few things I've considered at the jams I attend:

--In general I think passing the break around to every player gets tired if the group is large.

--If it's a bluegrass song I like the singer to call the breaks. And for there not to be back-to-back breaks, unless they are "split" like the hotshot bluegrassers do! There is also my favorite the short "turn around break" so common in classic bluegrass.

--Breaks always seem to sound better to me when they conform quite a bit to the melody.

--If it is clearly an oldtime tune it is great to instruct the players to play it together. Or ask a player or two to "play it with me" when it's your turn.

I guess it boils down to what style the tunes and songs are. Bluegrass more and more seems influenced by jazz, improvisation, even rock. So it's less common that a break on a singing song (or even an instrumental!) will be the melody. But if it really is an oldtime tune (or song) then the tradition is to play the melody, usually together, and there really isn't improvisation.

Have fun!
Z

[greg_tsam]

I jam mostly bluegrass and the players range from newbie to professional level. We had a lady brand new to mando sitting next to a 45 year veteran with 3 state picking championships last week. They both had a blast. The newbie passed on all the breaks and chopped like it was going out of style CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!

Sometimes our circle gets too large and it's hard to hear and, yes, there are people who play over other people's leads. It can be very frustrating but it's also a chance to learn patience and acceptance for others at a different point in their musical journey. Sometimes the circle leaders will gently remind everyone to be aware of others and not play over them but not often. It works.

When there is a big group of pickers taking leads then we'll call out half breaks and direct traffic. When there's a few of us we might take two breaks back to back. Staying with the melody is recommended on the first and then improve if you like but don't stray so far the others can't follow the changes. Again, we have beginners and professionals. It's easy to stump one and almost impossible to stump the other.

When the circle gets too loud people usually end up taking a water break here and there. Its a good time to stretch when it gets chaotic. We play slow waltzes, lots of singing and fast instrumentals. I'm usually the one instigating the banjo player to play "banjo fast" at least once a night.

I've played ol time and irish before with the group thing going on and although it's nice I find myself getting bored and wanting to take a lead. Different mindset. Kinda like the difference between taking a boat on the lake. Do you want a pontoon boat or a ski boat?

I like to ski.