built-in pickups, instrument value

[CeeCee_C]

Hi all -

What's the consensus - Does having a pickup installed that replaces the rear strap button with a plug receptacle/button reduce the value of an instrument?

It does require drilling out the tailpiece center hole and drilling through the instrument side.

Is there an acoustic downside as well?

I'm having mixed emotions on this. I want the pickup but don't want to reduce the desirability of the instrument to someone else should I decide to part with it.

Thanks,

CeeCee

[Andy Miller]

There will be buyers who turn their nose up at a pickup installation and buyers who don't give a hoot. But in general, I think a well-installed pickup in a modern instrument has little effect on resale value. Drilling out the endpin hole in a rare instrument from a time before pickups were used iwill have more impact on resale.

There is a type of endpin jack that replaces the tapered endpin without reaming out the hole, it's called a Vintage Jack and it's made by Tapastring. It limits you to using a cable with an 1/8" plug on one end, but it lets you install an internal pickup without modifying your instrument.

[Steve L]

If were looking at 2 comparable mandos and one had a pickup, I'd go with that one.

[mandroid]

well if its a quarter million dollar Signed Loar. No , Id leave it as is..
and let the Microphone send all that fabulous tone you paid for out to the audience.

but it all depends on what you are considering for the modification..


If the buyer was another performing musician ,and they would use the pickup,
anyhow, it should not matter..

many posts on tapered end pins pulling out..
never heard of a screwed down jack/endpin doing that..


I bought a stick -on Schertler Dyn M to do the pickup duties on my Varnished 22 A4.
so as to leave is as is.
+ i can apply it to multiple instruments..

[Mandobart]

Is there an acoustic downside as well?... I want the pickup but don't want to reduce the desirability of the instrument to someone else should I decide to part with it.

My personal experience having installed internal pickups on over 10 of my own instruments is it does not impact the unamplified acoustic tone one bit. My free advice (worth every penny) on modifying one's instruments, home, car, etc. is this - Is it more important to you that your current instrument/home/vehicle/etc. please you or that it please its future caretaker?

[mrmando]

If it were a vintage Gibson I'd go the Tapastring route, or use a Schertler or Baggs Radius, which are mounted externally. If it were a modern mandolin I wouldn't worry about drilling affecting the value.

[pickinpete]

I had the same concerns when I got my varnished Kentucky KM-1500, but I got a K&K twin internal, drilled the endpin and never looked back. Didnt affect anything. As for resale Im not worried about that as Im keeping this one forever.

[Tim2723]

I believe the overall general consensus over the years has been that a properly installed pickup will have no appreciable affect on the acoustic properties. That said, the resale value is what ever it is. Are you talking about an extremely rare and valuable instrument? Would only a tiny handful of players be interested in it? For myself, a pickup increases the value.

[bmm5255]

Hi all -
It does require drilling out the tailpiece center hole and drilling through the instrument side.
Thanks,

I would personally never consider a pickup that required anything more than drilling the endpin hole. There are many great pickups that would require nothing more than this. My personal favorite is the K&K Mandolin Twin.

Bruce

[foldedpath]

I believe the overall general consensus over the years has been that a properly installed pickup will have no appreciable affect on the acoustic properties. That said, the resale value is what ever it is. Are you talking about an extremely rare and valuable instrument? Would only a tiny handful of players be interested in it? For myself, a pickup increases the value.

I agree that there is no effect on the acoustic tone, but I think that once you go into a certain class of hand-made mandolin -- and not necessarily into the "extremely rare and valuable category," just the higher-end handmade stuff -- then a pickup is not what a potential buyer will expect, and it might decrease the value.

For example, although I am completely, 100% happy with my Lebeda F5 (no really!), I sometimes cruise by online stores like Carmel music, just to see what's in stock. Here's a link to their current mandolin inventory:

http://www.carmelmusic.com/stocklist....html#mandolin

I don't see any pickup installations there. If I ever decided to go out on a financial limb and risk the health of my relationship to my Significant Other by trying a Kimble, Ellis, Dude, Gil, or similar mandolin.... I'm not sure I'd want to pay full price for one with a 1/4" jack in the tailpiece and a pickup installation. I know that's not completely rational. But it's probably how the market works for instruments in this range.

If we're talking about mandolins under the $5k+ range, that's a different story, with different expectations in the marketplace.

[allenhopkins]

Is this for your new Collings MF? I wouldn't go that route initially; under what circumstances will you need amplification, at a level that can't be provided by a microphone?

Enlarging the end-pin is not likely to seriously diminish the instrument's value, and for those needing on-stage amplification for whatever reason, it may enhance the value, as Tim states.

But there is such a wide selection of pick-ups and on-board mics that don't require drilling a hole in the side, that risking devaluation by cutting into the rim seems unduly invasive.

[Don Grieser]

Schertler's internal pickup now ONLY comes with an XLR jack which can only be mounted by cutting the rim. Really stupid move.

[Dave Greenspoon]

I sent my Rigel A Nat back to Rigel to be retrofitted with their internal piezo. The jack/end pin is the same as on the rest of their lines that include the p/u. I'll never have to worry about ticky-taky on the top of soundboard, side mounting a carpentar jack, reseating a bridge, etc. There was no difference in tone to my ears. However, you'll never be able to avoid the sound of your pick thru it, unless you have a sound person tweaking the freqs. IMO, that's the one great advantage to being mic'd, the second decent advantage is a simplified signal chain.

Finally, to those who feel it is a heresy to add a p/u to a valuable axe: the concerns about modifying a vintage instrument clearly didn't stop Sam Bush from adding one to his '34 Fern.

[almeriastrings]

Schertler's internal pickup now ONLY comes with an XLR jack which can only be mounted by cutting the rim. Really stupid move.

Totally agree. Really, really, stupid.

Pickups date.... in the sense they go out of data, not get hooked up with someone they fancy... er... anyway,. they become obsolescent. Making a honking great hole like that in a good instrument will look as crazy as drilling 'tone and vol' knobs does now on a 1950's D-28.

http://www.schertler.com/homepage_sc...socoil-en.html

I have done a couple of installations using the 'Vintage Jack' with total success, and without altering the instrument at all. Works well with both Baggs Radius and K&K's. This is what I recommend on a good quality instrument, as not only is it 'reversible' but if you want to change the instrument and keep the pickup, you can so so (or vice versa).

Sam's "Hoss" has an early 70's Barcus Berry "Hot Dot" installed in the bridge. A very primitive piezo design by today's standards. That said, I currently "care-take" Bill Clifton's old Brazilian Martin D-35, and that has a couple of those installed on the bridge too. They sound fine into a high-impedance preamp. Output is pretty low... but with a decent pre and some EQ they are fine. Sam, obviously, is happy with his.

[lenf12]

Finally, to those who feel it is a heresy to add a p/u to a valuable axe: the concerns about modifying a vintage instrument clearly didn't stop Sam Bush from adding one to his '34 Fern.

That looks suspiciously like a newer Sam Bush model Gibson in the video Dave. BTW - Sam's "Hoss" is a '37 with a flowerpot (not fern) inlaid in the headstock and has the hot dot wedged between the saddle and base of the bridge. He also uses a Countryman clip on microphone in his sound rig.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[mandroid]

IDK about the coming pre-soldered with an XLR plate jack, but, mechanically,
the leads could be re-soldered to a TRS 1/4", 'stereo' jack . hot cold and a ground.

The instrument tech doing the install should not find it too difficult..

C dyn S is in my Mix A5, 1/4" jack is still optional with a little effort..

plug and play may be made easy with the Plate-XLR
because the hole then in a Guitar's rim will let pickup transducer pass right thru,

fully assembled,pre soldered, , rather than installing pickup,
poking the leads out the end pin hole, soldering them to the button/jack,
then fixing the jack's nuts and whatnot to clamp it thru the end block.

[Don Grieser]

http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...idproduct=9581 Buy the pickup, get the mandolin for free.

[chip]

I've been wrestling with the same problem, as to install a pickup. After taking a couple of my mandolins to a well known luthier for a tuneup and questioning him about it Ive pretty much made up my mind to not have it done. Even though I have a shertler,
which I don't care for, he convinced me that one might as well have an electric mandolin if your going to go that route. Playing into a mic is a much better sound and you can control the vol., etc just by moving around it. I've always preferred that but I guess I just needed another opinion by a well respected luthier/player.

[pjlama]

I just use the Radius when I need to plug in, it works fine and can quickly move from instrument to instrument. I do have the Fishman but use a carpenter jack and when I had a Shertler just used the putty carpenter jack deal. Now if I was on the road performing every day I'd do something more permanent but then I'd have to chose one mandolin to use

[Don Grieser]

To get back on topic, I wouldn't buy a used mandolin with that Schertler XLR jack installed in the rim. That definitely lowers the value of a mandolin. A mandolin with a K&K with an endpin jack wouldn't bother me.

There's no pickup in my Gilchrist, but I've installed K&Ks in other quality mandolins without a second thought. YMMV.

[foldedpath]

I think there's another side to this question, related to the available quality of mandolin pickups compared to some other instruments. I was thinking about this, because I do have pickups installed in my two nice acoustic guitars: a custom Santa Cruz steel string, and a custom Holst nylon string. Why do I feel differently about pickups in guitars vs. mandolins? I think it's because there are major benefits to be gained with an active pickup system installed in a guitar, and the gains just aren't as great with the passive systems available for mandolin.

For example, my Holst nylon string guitar has an older Baggs dual system that blends an undersaddle pickup with an internal boundary microphone. Both transducers run through a preamp that buffers the signals and applies a special EQ curve to each transducer, so everything is nicely blended and tweaked before the signal goes out the endpin jack. There is also a little control unit so the user can adjust the mic/pickup blend.

You can't do any of that on a mandolin. There is no room for an internal battery, preamp, and mic, at least not as an aftermarket installation. It's possible in theory to phantom-power an internal preamp, but that's never been a popular solution. The pickups available for mandolin are all (I think?) passive designs. Passive pickups work "okay," but they're a generation or three behind what's available for guitars, simply due to the lack of installation/battery room, and ability to buffer and EQ the signal with an internal preamp.

I guess that explains why -- at least for me personally -- I don't like the idea of a permanent pickup installation on a nice mandolin, but I find it more acceptable on a guitar. There just isn't that much to be gained other than convenience in plugging in, compared to the passive external pickups for mandolin. There's a lot more to be gained with a guitar installation.

[mandroid]

Something like the Godin A8 (or the Ovation A/E) works so well ,
made from the get go as an amplified instrument
with acoustic overtones.. , and a built in battery powered Preamp.
consider leaving your nice acoustic as is, and get another instrument
for the amplified jobs that a Mic'd mandolin does not work well..

[mandroid]

Of note , going to Schertler's site , they sell their 1/4" TRS jack , it's in accessories, now. http://www.schertler.com/homepage_sc...sories-en.html

[Tim Griffin]

http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...idproduct=9581 Buy the pickup, get the mandolin for free.

Score.

[CeeCee_C]

Yes, this question is asked in context of the Collings MF I just ordered. Someone asked why not just use a microphone- answer: consistency-The pickup element is always the same distance from the strings.