Another new person ---HELP---- post. *Long*

[LM_in_KY]

Hello friends . . .

I am very new to mandolin. After 35 years of electric guitar, my love of playing music has been reinvigorated with my humble little Oscar Schmidt OM 40. But, it brings a whole 'nother set of frustrations with it. One of them is 'unlearning' the guitar, but I digress . . . I have always listened to bluegrass and celtic influenced Appalachian music but know very little about it. I don't know any standards or classics by name or chord structure. I really want to play with people at the impromptu jams and festivals which abound in the great state of Kentucky, but obviously have the aforementioned, somewhat huge obstacle to overcome. While I work on my history and repertoire, might any of you seasoned mandolin'rs who have made it thus far in this ponderous first post, have any resources printed or otherwise that might help me with standard-generic, tried and true chops, scales, arpeggios etc, that might be used sort of all-inclusively, on a per-chord basis? A grimoire of double stops or simple two-three note stuff instead of playing just chords? Does that make sense ?? There is so much material out there, I don't know what I think(?) I need. In short, I would like to be able to walk right up and join in on a session without sounding like a train wreck or having my mando confiscated.

I lurked for a long time before signing on and respect this community immensely, so I hope I haven't offended you with a n00bie indiscretion of some sort. I am equal parts excited and frustrated to move to a higher level, that is what prompts this request.

Thank you very much for reading my post and your help in this matter . . .
Respectfully,
LM in KY

[MikeEdgerton]

Welcome to the cafe. We have users that post longer answers to yes or no questions, this isn't really a long post. In my way of thinking most folks won't have a problem with you sitting on the outskirts of the jam soaking in what is happening, chopping chords, whatever. You're only gonna be a train wreck if you step up and don't know how to fit in. The only way to learn that is by observing.

[John McCoy]

Hi, LM!

This can get you started on chords and arpeggios. Note that in the upper left-hand corner of the chord section of the page there's a dropdown menu that lets you select from a great variety of chords. As a guitar player you already have a pretty good idea of which ones to start with. With several shapes to choose for each chord, you should be able to get off to a good start.

And if you don't want to be reading chord tab off of a screen, I'm sure Scott wouldn't mind too terribly much if you bought a few of his chord mugs for quick reference.

[greg_tsam]

I like the FFcP system. I knew scales and arpeggios but after the FFcP I felt better able to use them. It helped a lot when I was struggling to develop leads.

[LM_in_KY]

Thank you very much, Mike, John and Greg !
The chord page is great ! Boiling a pot of coffee as I type, going to be a long night

At the events Ive attended, there is always a guitar player playing very basic chords. My plan is to follow him/her and hopefully have some nice stuff to contribute.

Thanks again, advice very much appreciated !

LM in KY

[R. Kane]

You might have heard of this resource. It is an old time music jam with a lot of history. They offer chord charts for all the tunes played at their jams.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong, so disregard this if it's off the mark.

Walking right up and joining in a session works only if you know the tunes and songs being played and have some basic command of your instrument. You also have to be able to keep up with the tempo. This takes time. There aren't any shortcuts. Even if you just want to play chords (and get around to playing melodies later), you have to learn at least the basic major and minor chords (some 7ths would help, too), and then you'll want to know at least the basic chord progressions that fit the tunes and songs being played (as in the chord charts linked to in R. Kane's post above). Bear in mind that the chords you'll use depend on the key and mode of the tune/song, and that isn't always the same from one jam to the next. For example, Shady Grove might be played in Am or Dm, and sometimes Em. The choice of key often depends on the vocal range and preferences of singers at the jam, and sometimes also which instruments are present.

Also bear in mind that most Irish sessions don't operate like most old timey or bluegrass jams--different etiquettes and customs apply.

I don't mean any of this to be discouraging, only hoping to save you from blundering into a jam and coming off as clueless. Best to do your homework at home, and go to some jams just to *listen* at first, really paying attention to how things work, what the experienced mandolin players are doing, and what tunes and songs are common at the jams you want to eventually join. You can also introduce yourself, make friends, ask questions, maybe find a mentor or teacher to help you along (the closest thing there is to a short cut).

Good luck!

[greg_tsam]

Even though you've said you have to unlearn the guitar and have been playing electric for 35 years you have an advantage in knowing guitar chord shapes and an experienced ear. Maybe you just need to learn the bluegrass style. It should be easy to follow along and quietly chop in the back row of a jam without disturbing anyone while you match your changes with the dominant guitar player. If there are other mandolins taking leads then listen what they do. You should do just fine.

Just remember that your mandolin is much louder to others than it is to you.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

"It should be easy to follow along and quietly chop in the back row of a jam without disturbing anyone while you match your changes with the dominant guitar player."

This is true only if you are already adept at quickly changing closed chords on your mandolin. That's a big part of the "homework" I referred to in my previous post--learn the chords, get comfortable with the progressions for at least a handful of tunes/songs, and *then* go to a jam. Mando chord shapes differ a lot from guitar chords and warrant some time in the woodshed before trying to play with others at typical jam tempos.

All I'm suggesting is that newcomers are more likely to be welcomed when they demonstrate a basic awareness and respect for the notion that the regulars are there to play music, not just make a lot of noise. From LM's first post, it seems like he understands this.

Enthusiasm for the music is great, but it takes more than that to actually insert yourself into a jam (at least if you want to be welcomed back). Even the best, most experienced musicians can make a mess of it if they haven't actually played in the genre before. Most jams already have plenty of stories about "clueless, arrogant" rock/jazz/classical musicians who thought they could sit in. Why risk giving yourself that reputation? (I'm not suggesting that LM wants to do that; just that he might inadvertently step in that direction. He's taking a good approach by looking for ways to get at least the chords and progressions under his belt before wading into a jam.) A couple of weeks woodshedding at home will make that first time jamming much more enjoyable for LM and everyone else involved.

[Mandobart]

Not meaning any disrespect, but the chord progressions in bluegrass and old-time are pretty darn simple. I-IV-V, I-V-IV, sometimes a vi or ii. If a person has played rock, blues, CW or folk etc. electric guitar for the past 35 years they will have no problem following the progressions in a BG or OT tune.

LM I started like you did. I had the advantage of playing violin as well as guitar so I already knew the notes. But if you take the couple weeks practice time needed to learn the I, IV, V, vi and seventh forms of the chords in the keys of A, B, C, D and G you'll have about 98% of what you'll ever need to chop along at any jam. I'm talking what, maybe 10 15 chords. As posted, don't step up to playing a lead until you've been to a few jams and met the folks and got a feel for it. As a participant in about 3 - 5 weekly jams in my area for the past few years, I've never found anyone looked down on for trying.

Above all, DON'T wait until you think you're "good enough" to go to a jam. Your learning rate will accelerate the more you play with others.

[LM_in_KY]

Not meaning any disrespect, but the chord progressions in bluegrass and old-time are pretty darn simple. I-IV-V, I-V-IV, sometimes a vi or ii. If a person has played rock, blues, CW or folk etc. electric guitar for the past 35 years they will have no problem following the progressions in a BG or OT tune.


Above all, DON'T wait until you think you're "good enough" to go to a jam. Your learning rate will accelerate the more you play with others.

I appreciate your input and this post and the others make me realize I need to refocus my practice. As a guitarist, I am self-taught and have no idea of theory and notes and stuff like that, I just know what patterns work with what chords. This is an extreme disadvantage in some ways. For the mando, I am starting off the same way, just practicing mostly made-up linear runs and fills and things like that--playing songs I already know, but not really understanding what the notes are or their relevance to the other parts of the song. So, I am sort of coming along in one sense, but need to refocus and do it "right". Learn the chords and play them cleanly--which is a whole 'nother semi-painful issue--It's just very frustrating, like learning to walk again.
Fun though, and that's what it's all about in the end!

Thanks again, advice taken!
LM in KY

[Bill Baldridge]

Welcome to the Cafe. If you have been reading the post for a while, you know that for any question you are likely to get ten different answers. Some of them will even agree with another. While this can get confusing, it also demonstrates that there is more than one way to do almost anything.

I empathize with your struggle to "unlearn" the guitar. When I was making the switch I found it was easier for me to put the guitar away for a while. I already knew how to follow a I,IV,V chord progression, but my fingers kept trying to play guitar on the mandolin neck. IMO you don't need seven ways to play a G chord, most beginners begin playing in the open position. Many people never get beyond the open position and do just fine in jams. In most jams, I am more interested in whether the beginner is playing a G chord when the rest of us are and with their basic rhythm than I am with the voicing of their G.

If you have been playing for thirty-five years, I surely am preaching to the choir. It could be that if a mandolin player put your question(s) to you in terms of playing the guitar, you would give them the same general advice you are going to get here.

Again, welcome to the Cafe. Sit back and read the multiple responses to your question. As the punch line goes: "There as got to be a pony in there somewhere.

[LM_in_KY]

In most jams, I am more interested in whether the beginner is playing a G chord when the rest of us are and with their basic rhythm than I am with the voicing of their G.

"There as got to be a pony in there somewhere.

K.I.S.S. the theory, not the band !

Thank you, Bill !

Regards,

LM in KY

[shortymack]

Hi LM, I am a noob as well after years of guitar playing. I do have a slight bluegrass advantage as Ive been playing it for about two years now on guitar but have zero mando experience. What I have done is search high and low for songs/tabs on everything from youtube to google searches ie: old joe clark mandolin. Alot of learning the bluegrass standards is just being familiar with the tune and how it goes. Once you have the basic melody in your mind its alot easier to apply it, for me at least. There are many many great players here and Im sure every one will have great suggestions. Most of all, have fun, enjoy it...thats what its all about.

[shortymack]

BTW thanks Greg for the FFcP tip. Great stuff.

[RBMB]

I took up mandolin after years of playing guitar. I bought a few books and took some lessons. Lessons really helped. Also if you go to a jam, let folks know you are a beginner and some people are bound to provide tips or step aside and work with you. I find that most jams include some of the common fiddle tunes. I highly recommend Roland white's book since he include relatively easy melodies and is by far the best book I've ever seen concerning chords.

[JRcohan]

I would put a larger emphasis on tunes than scales/arpeggios etc. The advantage of bluegrass jams is the choice of songs seems to be mostly traditional songs. Once you start tackling a list of traditional tunes you will hear similar parts/riffs in many different songs. Here in Georgia some tunes I hear often at jams include, the fiddle tunes,

In A: Red-Haired Boy, and Salt Creek
In D: Soldier's Joy, Arkansas Traveler, Turkey in the Straw, and St.Anne's Reel.

Some tunes you will hear the vocalist singing include:
Will the Circle Be Unbroken, Way Downtown, Dark Hallow, I Know You Rider, Nine Pound Hammer, and Angel Band. Having these tunes "in your head," to where you can hum the melody is a big part. Then at the Jam keep your ears open, step back on tunes you don't know and step in on the ones you do.

Have fun and keep pickin,
Jake
http://www.jakecohan.com

The fiddle tunes will usually be played in the same key, some fiddles and mandolins can play the melody.

[CES]

OP,

I feel your pain! I've only been playing guitar/mando/banjo for a few years, but, after sitting on a mandolin instructor's wait list for too long, I finally started taking guitar lessons. Really would have preferred mando, but the guitar lessons work well from a convenience standpoint (close to home, reasonable cost, and my daughter takes in the slot in front of me, so I'm there anyway). My instructor has a great grasp of theory, and I've asked him to basically start me off at the beginning. It's extremely painful to slowly sight read standard notation for songs I could rip through in tab (or by memorizing), but in only 3 lessons I now get the Circle of 5ths and 4ths and can figure out the associated scales for each key. I've also learned the significance of a ton of movable chords I'd been using blindly before, and have the first position notes down. I'm still working on translating it all to the guitar fretboard, but he explained in about 5 minutes what numerous books have failed to get across to me for years (now that I know it, the books make a lot more sense!). I know that translating this knowledge to the mando will be pretty easy (at least it has been so far), too, which I'm excited about.

Bart and Jake's advice is excellent. You can do a lot with the I, IV, V chords from a rhythm standpoint, especially with your ability to follow the guitar player's chord progressions. As someone who has floundered without theory knowledge (or natural talent) for years, I'd recommend learning this stuff on the front end if you can...books (Music Theory for Modern Mandolin, How to Play Guitar in Any Key) can help, and you'll pick up a ton of practical theory by paying attention at jams. I think you'll find that you don't have to be a music major to do quite well, but that knowledge really helps you participate on songs you don't know well, or if someone takes a familiar song into unfamiliar territory...

At any rate, good luck, and don't get frustrated!

[JonZ]

Go ahead and sound like a train wreck, and soon you won't. Everyone with whom you will play has been there.

[JeffD]

oops

[JeffD]

So I am going to agree an disagree with everyone.

By all means go to as many jams as you can. It will pour gasoline on your willinges to practice and learn.

But... I don't think one can take a lead or a break effectively without learning the tune you want to lead on. So go, listen a lot, play some, and some more, and get into it by degrees.

All the resources indicated here will help you, absolutely. Each year you will sound like you have played another year, and in ten years you will play like you have been playing a decade.

Enjoy the journey, BTW.

[LM_in_KY]

Just a short note to let people who have posted here know I am watching my thread and sincerely appreciate their input and inspiration. My good Wife bought me a Mel Bay book and CD, but alas, I cannot read music, so it will be barter fodder later on at some point. She signed me up for lessons at our local bluegrass cafe / music store, and I have sort of found a path that is working for vetting the instrument, so the frustration level has dropped a lot

Thanks again and I hope I might meet some of you one day at one of our great events here in Kentucky !

Regards,
LM in KY